Coffee Time - Chrono movements.
Discussion
Yesterday I put up a link to an interview done in 2004 between Robert-Jan (Fratello watches) and Chuck Maddox (watch enthusiast), it's been a few years since I first read it but it struck me that he hit the nail on the head on quite a few topics as I read it again. Anyway, I was in touch with Robert-Jan the other day and asked if he'd mind me reproducing extracts and, of course, he was only too happy.
Chuck obviously had his own personal biases, tastes, focus and views but was extremely knowledgable and modest, so I thought I'd reprint parts that may still be of interest today for anyone that wanted some opinion on chrono movements, I've left out reference to the Omega 3313 as at the time it was probably released too early, however the contemporary thoughts are on the links below for those who want to follow up.
Anyway, here it is if you want a quick read of something watch related in your coffee break.
Intro - CM - As for my interests, for the most part, I'm very happy and content in a certain niche of chronographs... I like chronographs basically from within or near my life span, mainly of the middle to upper middle of the field when it comes to the quality level of Swiss brands. I don't own a Rolex Daytona, but if I live long enough to accumulate the funds to purchase one of the models I like I would like to someday. Some brands you'll never see me go for unless I win the lottery... I doubt you'll ever see me wearing a AP, Lange, Bruget or Blancplan, UN or VC either. I like the looks of the Reverso so I won't rule out a JLC, I like certain Universal Geneve's although I only own a single Space-Compax. There always seems to be brands I can explore. There are also many lesser known and lesser appreciated and often underpriced brands that I find fascinating: Tissot, Zodiac, Certina, and even more obscure brands that many people haven't discovered. Their loss...
RJ - Is there a company who has a strategy you like best? Rolex for not changing a thing (only minor changes) through the years, or Blancpain for never making a quartz watch or Tag Heuer to reproduce the watches they made in the 60s (Monaco, Carrera etc.)?
[laughing] Let me run through the examples you give...
[Laughs] It always comes back to Rolex and Omega! There is a lot to be said about Rolex's philosophy of sticking with the classics. There is a reason why the Model T, the VW Beetle, Jeep CJ, and Porsche 911 have been largely unchanged for many many years. Because like them or hate them they did something very well and people bought them because of that. I know I'd like to see Rolex be a little more experimental in nature, but I know I shouldn't get my hopes up... I know Rolex offers a multitude of ways to customize their watches with different dials/bezels etc. But I can't get a Chronograph with a date feature unless I go to a 1950's model.
Blancpain... Quartz movements aren't a sin. Nor are they anything to be ashamed to have produced. They serve a valid need for people and some are pretty cool. While I certainly have preferences, I don't have problems with Quartz or electronic movements (Tuning Forks).
TAG-Heuer... Up until four or five years ago TAG had a strategy I liked... Survival. I hear people bemoan all the time how they like (the old) Heuers but hate TAG-Heuer. I've always been of the mind set regardless of how I've felt about the current TAG-Heuer line, I prefer a live TAG-Heuer to a dead and buried Heuer. I believe TAG has the right idea with the Classics line but I think the implementation can be improved. I'd like to see them develop close versions of the original, not some of the "manufactured" classics like the Monza which only shares the name of the original Monza. I'd like to see a Carrera re-edition featuring a manual wind version of a Zenith movement instead of an ETA/Dubois-Depraz piggyback model. With some of their new models and concepts though, in particular the Monaco V.4 and the Aquagraph 2000, that TAG-Heuer isn't afraid to innovate on movements or with the state of the art of what a serious tool watch can be.
One firm that I frequently mention as one that I am very fond of is Ventura. They too are a niche player in the market place. They have one very defined niche: Bauhaus watch design that I just absolutely love. The only Ventura models I don't like are some of the more recent garish gold and Diamond encrusted models which I feel break the Bauhaus mold. What I like about their designs is that they are so striking and beautiful they are going to still look modern and beautiful in 30 years. They are timeless. (I moved this paragraph/answer up one question... This is where it belongs)
How about the road that independent watch companies like Sinn, Tutima, Fortis, Bell&Ross, Chronoswiss take, to name a few?
All of the firms you mention have a perceived market niche and work hard to keep their products great standard bearers for that niche. Of the ones you mention, I personally group the first four: Sinn, Bell & Ross, Tutima and Fortis together a lot... In fact I sometimes call them the four little Germanic firms... Sinn has obvious German roots, Bell & Ross were essentially re-branded Sinn up until the introduction of the Space three about five years back. Tutima is German, and the Fortis product line and reason to be is so close to the other three it seems natural to group them together. Of those four Bell & Ross is the only brand I don't own an example of.
Chronoswiss is another interesting brand that has a narrow prescribed niche in which it operates in and sticks with it. I love their products, very pretty and a wonder to look at, I hope some day to own one some day. But they aren't my typical "big and bold, rough and rugged watch" fare.
Your preferences for chronograph movements is probably no secret, you like the Lemania movements best,
hmmm.... Yeah I guess. I like Lemania's a lot, probably best too.
especially the out-of-production Lemania 5100 movement.
I do have a fondness for that model, more so than many collectors, but there are other very strong 5100 fans out there.
What are you thoughts on Lemania movements in general (i.e. Omega/Lemania caliber 321, 861, 1861, 1040, Lemania 134x, Lemania 5100)?
Let me run through them in order too...
{Omega}c.321: A beautiful classic chronograph movement (along with the 27 CHRO c12, it's predecessor). A beautiful movement to behold, neither the Valjoux 72 series nor the Zenith HP146 movements (both fine movements) are as handsome as this movement. Tough as nails, has the column wheel instead of the c.861's lever-cam arrangement. Now, while 99 out of 100 chronograph collectors will tell you that they prefer the Column Wheel and the looks of an arched bridge, in terms of function there is little if any difference in actual day to day usage in my experience. This, I'm easy going on the Column-Wheel/Lever-Cam question.
{Omega}c.861 Family: Remember there are a number of variants of this movement. If Omega replaced the c.321 with anyone else, people would have descended on Bienne with torches and pitchforks. Every bit as tough s the c.321, easier to manufacture, higher beat movement, not as pretty as the c.321. Some people have accused me of having a preference for the c.321 in the past. I like them both. Both are great movements. c.1861... I'm odd that for some reason, I personally prefer silvery colored watches (Steel and Titanium) but I prefer gilt plated (Gold colored) movements. I can't explain why but I do. Aside from the color Rhodium is a superior material for plating watch movements [full stop].
{Omega}c.1040/c.1041 (Lemania 1342) : Kinda the odd man out in Lemania's chronograph lineup. It has an odd "common-axial" subdial at 9 o'clock that leads to a asymmetrical subdial layout that is, well... Odd. Hard to get used to, especially if you're used to the 5100 or Valjoux 7750 layouts. However, when you look at the movement in comparison to the 5100 the 1040/1041 is has a much nicer look and better level of finish than any 5100 I've seen save for the Alain Silberstein models. A very nice movement that is frequently lost in the shuffle because of it's odd dial-layout. Aside from the odd subdial layout the one thing I really don't care for on this base movement is the "quick change" date feature... On the c.134x models, it seems to have a heavy "camming" motion to the quick change, while on the 5100 and Valjoux 7750 it's a light crisp "snick-snick" feel to the action. I only have one of the c.1341 model Lemania's in a Wakmann perpetual calendar model. I haven't been particularly impressed with the Wakmann's performance. Perhaps I'll sample a Tissot c.1341 in the future.
{Omega c.1045} Lemania 5100: The "AK-47" of chronograph movements: accurate, dependable, reliable, can take punishment that no other watch can survive and keeps on ticking. Certainly not the prettiest movement in the world, or the most elegant of operation, but provides a multitude of information in the easiest to read layout of any watch with so complex of a feature set.
You didn't mention a couple of movements RJ, so I will... Valjoux 7750 family...
Correct, it was left out by purpose, since I am personally not very fond about it
Hmmm... Besides it's commonality is there any particular reason why you don't like it? I'm curious...
I also think it is not a very interesting movement to discuss, because like the non-chronograph ETA2892-A2 movement, it is very common. And qualitywise it is probably a great movement, as it has proven itself over the years in a diversity of watch brands like Omega, IWC, Breitling, Sinn, Chronoswiss and a whole lot of other brands. However, I think the competition, like the Lemania 5100 is just more interesting.
I suppose I can see that. I'm not a big fan of the Chevy small-block V-8 (I'm a Ford sort of guy) but even I admit that the Chevy is sound, a good design and the choice of many.
My personal 'against' the 7750 is the free spinning direction of this movement, the wobble it gives on the wrist doesn't feel 'good' for me. Anyway, at least one watch on my 'wanted-list is a Valjoux 7750 driven Panerai, so it is absolutely not the case that I don't want to own a 7750.
[Laughs] Danger RJ Broer DANGER! this is where the trouble starts, and the next thing you know you have handful's of them. Like a peanut, it's hard to stop after just having one.
However, feel free to talk about the 7750..
[Smiles] Ok, If the 5100 is the AK-47 of chronograph movements, the 7750 is the Swiss Army knife of chronograph movements. I'll run out of digits to count variations on before Swatch Group runs out of variations of this ubiquitous movement. While personally I prefer the 5100 for durability, ease of reading (that center chronograph minute hand again), and 24-Hour register, I also am fond of the 7750. Recently I purchased a Katun limited production run of the Sinn 144 GMT which has a GMT complication of the Valjoux 7750 and I really REALLY like that watch. If you are looking for a great full featured watch that has all the bells and whistles (but you can't get a 5100) the Sinn 144 GMT is a candidate worth considering. I know that nearly as many people in the "Haute Horology" crowd look down their collective noses at the 7750 as the Lemania 5100. Admittedly this is about the most common chronograph movement out there these days. But some movement has to be. It's a good solid movement, perhaps not the easiest or most exciting movement to service, but it gives a lot of bang for the buck and is a strong performer. I don't feel the 7750 family is as easy to read quickly or able to endure as much abuse as a 5100, but aside from those things it does everything else well in my book.
And then we have the piggybacking chronograph movements, the ETA/Dubois-Depraz movements. I handled a few, amongst them a Speedmaster Automatic. I never heard much complaints (except for accuracy, which is more or less different per movement of course) on these piggybacking movements. How do you look at these movements?
I suspect that my experience mirror's yours... I hear good things from owners about it being a good performer (timekeeping and operation), and I hear the other side (the chonograph module is a bear to work on and most watchmakers won't touch the module and will pitch and replace to the tune of $150 in cost). As I don't usually go for smaller chronographs I haven't felt compelled to own one. The other thing that bothers me about the Reduced (and hence other watches with this movement) is the swapping of the minute and small seconds on the dial. I'm sure it would be something I could get used to, but it must be like using a left-handed pair of sissors if you're a righty, it just seems odd.
On the larger issue of "Piggy-Back" vs. "ground-up" chronographs, I guess I don't have a big problem with Piggy-Back movements. I have a slew of Micro-Rotor chronographs (Heuer, Hamilton as well as Chrono-sport and even a Bulova "Parking Meter" Bullhead) as well as a couple of Heuer/TAG-Heuer's with the LWO 283 movement which features an ETA 2890 or ETA 2892 base timekeeping movement with a Lemania made piggyback chronograph movement. I've found the LWO's are excellent performers and I like them even though their subdial's have a different layout than the Lemania 7750. And of course there are the Tuning fork Chronographs I own which also have a piggy-back arrangement on a Tuning fork movement.
I guess to sum up, I think I'd recommend people stick with a "purpose-made" chronograph to start out unless a particular model really excites them. They can always explore piggybacks as they continue their collecting journey.
Back to the Valjoux-series, are you fond of the older Valjoux movements, like the Valjoux 72 family?
Yes, I am. I own a number of Valjoux 72's as well as the many variations: v.721 (Seafarer), v.723 (triple-date), several c.724's (GMT Complication), c.726 (Improved c.72), and a c.728 (single register with a center pinion chronograph minute counter (similar to the Lemania 5100 and 1341/2) and the v.88 (triple-date Moonphase. A very good solid movement. I don't feel it is as pretty as the Lemania 321 but it's very nice, more variation in features. The Valjoux has a number of very long and delicate levers that the Lemania either doesn't have or are shorter or much thicker, which contribute to the Lemania's reputation for robust movements that can take punishment well. BTW, for those who are interested the v.727 refers to the Rolex version of the Valjoux 72 typically.
I've said in the past, and drawn the ire of some moonwatch fans, when I've said I'm not comfortable blaming the 72 for the failure of Rolex and Longines in the NASA astronaut watch tests. One can't easily lay the blame for the disqualification of the Longines-Wittnauer (popped crystal) and Rolex (warped hands) competitors for the NASA testing at the feet of the Valjoux 72 because their failures were non-movement related issues. We may never know if, say, a Omega manufactured v.72 might have been able to have pass the NASA tests.
As for Zenith, you have a few El Primero driven watches,
A few. I received one between parts 1 and 2 of this conversation.
what do you think about this movement qualitywise?
I think in terms of technical design it's still the high water mark. Manufacture quality... It's the equal of anyone else's work in my opinion.
Is the movement hyped do you think,
Certainly it's acclaimed, in my opinion for good reason. Hyped? Perhaps, but not over hyped. I mean no other movement in mass production can do what it does, and it has done it for 35 years now.
or does it really live up to its quality-image on the several watchfora?
I feel it does, and I feel many other people would feel the same way.
Let me put it this way. How many Omega fans would line up to buy a moonwatch equipped with an El-Primero movement, how many Breitling owners? IWC? I think the line would go out the door.
Rolex used the Zenith El Primero movement for a while in their Daytona.
Yes, and they labored for a number of years to develop their own in-house movement. A move I applaud. That's a significant investment in resources and faith that the ends will justify the means.
Why would Rolex have downgraded the bph to 28800 instead of maintaining the 36000 bph and did some more changes in construction (like the escapement and balance), to maintain a certain quality in their Daytona models?
My knowledge of Rolex's motives is probably at the competent guessing level. But it's been my observation that Rolex prefers tradition, durability and ease of servicing over other considerations when there is a conflict. So they fine-tuned the movement to their tastes. No different than Carroll Shelby making changes in the GT-40's he was supplied in Ford's quest to win LeMans in the 1960's. A watch beating at 28,800 is not going to need service as frequently or as exotic of lubricants as Zenith uses in it's tune of the El-Primero.
An aside: I read a post in a Rolex forum this morning where someone posted the papers for a Bond Sub they had just acquired... The text of the service center page illustrates well Rolex's mindset:
OIL CHANGE EVERY 7000 MILES
The rim of a balance wheel travels 7000 miles in 18 months. That's time for an oil change. Every year to 18 months take your watch to an official Rolex servicing agent for oiling and cleaning, and if it's an Oyster, a waterproof check.
Rolex owners are known for using their watches the way an adventurer would use a Land Rover. Zenith has a different market segment it prefers. You'll notice the near complete lack of sports models in Zeniths more recent product lineups. Sport's models: Sub's, GMT's, 'Dwellers, Daytona's are Rolex's bread and butter.
Back to a more general point of view on watches and the watch business. Can you give me a quick thought on the Swiss watch industry, the German watch industry and the Japanese watch industry?
I'm not going to take these in order... But, hmmm...
Japanese watch industry... I think there was a time where they were incredibly innovative and aggressive in the marketplace, being among the first to develop an automatic chronograph movement, an early adopter of LED and LCD quartz technology, as well as realizing the benefits of analog quartz offerings, then for the most part they rested on their laurels for a while evolving instead of innovating. The past couple of years I've seen some really interesting ideas and things coming from Seiko and Citizen (especially) as well as Casio and even Timex. I've long said that one would be hard pressed to find a better deal "bang for the buck" than a Casio G-Shock watch. It's good to see some of the nifty new things, both technological and quality wise on the Japanese front.
The German brands... I'm going to assume you mean the German brands we were talking about earlier...
Well, I meant the German watch industry in general, which includes A. Lange & Söhne, Glashuette Original, Nomos etc.
For the most part these brands are outside my usual interest sphere. I admire the quality and inventiveness of their movement and configurations. They watches each create are technological a tour-de-force. However with these three they aren't going to be mistaken for tool watches. I will say that I personally consider Nomos to be one of the hidden gems of the watch industry. They make beautiful watches at a reasonable cost and every owner I've ever talked to has been thrilled with their purchase.
As for the German "Tool Watch" brands... The big problem they face is the supply of ebauches. Which involves the Swiss watch industry... Up until a couple of years ago all four of these brands: Sinn, Bell & Ross, Tutima and Fortis were heavily dependent on the Lemania 5100. Bell & Ross started transitioning about the same time they were cutting their ties with Sinn, and seem to be completely 7750 based. Sinn still has a few 5100 models available but they are getting scarce, and once they are gone... They are gone. Fortis started transitioning after Bell & Ross and with the exception of a limited edition B-42 is completely over to the 7750. Which leaves Tutima... I really don't know what Tutima's plans are. They are probably the smallest of these brands in terms of size and sales. It's possible they have a surplus of 5100's and can continue production for the time being and perhaps into the future. But sooner or later they too will have to switch to something.
Do you like the IWC Portugieser line any way, as a chronograph-nut?
I think the Portugieser line is an interesting line/watch and very very beautiful. I am not as big of a fan as many people are because I'm an hour-register sort of guy and I feel a chronograph lacking an hour register is of limited utility. I own several Porsche-Design/IWC Chronographs which I am very fond of. I wish they were still available new and still easily findable used at reasonable prices.
Ironically of the current IWC models the one I really like the most is the Da Vinci line. I think the Da Vinci (either the original or the Rattrapante) in Gold is the ultimate dress watch... In fact one I've heard my Ed. Heuer & Co. 125th Jubilee chronograph likened to a "Little Da Vinci", and if you look at the "Small Da Vinci" you can see why...
Full interview here - Part 1 and here - Part 2
Chucks Site here - Watch Reference Site
And all courtesy of Robert-Jan at - Fratello Watch Blog
Chuck obviously had his own personal biases, tastes, focus and views but was extremely knowledgable and modest, so I thought I'd reprint parts that may still be of interest today for anyone that wanted some opinion on chrono movements, I've left out reference to the Omega 3313 as at the time it was probably released too early, however the contemporary thoughts are on the links below for those who want to follow up.
Anyway, here it is if you want a quick read of something watch related in your coffee break.
Intro - CM - As for my interests, for the most part, I'm very happy and content in a certain niche of chronographs... I like chronographs basically from within or near my life span, mainly of the middle to upper middle of the field when it comes to the quality level of Swiss brands. I don't own a Rolex Daytona, but if I live long enough to accumulate the funds to purchase one of the models I like I would like to someday. Some brands you'll never see me go for unless I win the lottery... I doubt you'll ever see me wearing a AP, Lange, Bruget or Blancplan, UN or VC either. I like the looks of the Reverso so I won't rule out a JLC, I like certain Universal Geneve's although I only own a single Space-Compax. There always seems to be brands I can explore. There are also many lesser known and lesser appreciated and often underpriced brands that I find fascinating: Tissot, Zodiac, Certina, and even more obscure brands that many people haven't discovered. Their loss...
RJ - Is there a company who has a strategy you like best? Rolex for not changing a thing (only minor changes) through the years, or Blancpain for never making a quartz watch or Tag Heuer to reproduce the watches they made in the 60s (Monaco, Carrera etc.)?
[laughing] Let me run through the examples you give...
[Laughs] It always comes back to Rolex and Omega! There is a lot to be said about Rolex's philosophy of sticking with the classics. There is a reason why the Model T, the VW Beetle, Jeep CJ, and Porsche 911 have been largely unchanged for many many years. Because like them or hate them they did something very well and people bought them because of that. I know I'd like to see Rolex be a little more experimental in nature, but I know I shouldn't get my hopes up... I know Rolex offers a multitude of ways to customize their watches with different dials/bezels etc. But I can't get a Chronograph with a date feature unless I go to a 1950's model.
Blancpain... Quartz movements aren't a sin. Nor are they anything to be ashamed to have produced. They serve a valid need for people and some are pretty cool. While I certainly have preferences, I don't have problems with Quartz or electronic movements (Tuning Forks).
TAG-Heuer... Up until four or five years ago TAG had a strategy I liked... Survival. I hear people bemoan all the time how they like (the old) Heuers but hate TAG-Heuer. I've always been of the mind set regardless of how I've felt about the current TAG-Heuer line, I prefer a live TAG-Heuer to a dead and buried Heuer. I believe TAG has the right idea with the Classics line but I think the implementation can be improved. I'd like to see them develop close versions of the original, not some of the "manufactured" classics like the Monza which only shares the name of the original Monza. I'd like to see a Carrera re-edition featuring a manual wind version of a Zenith movement instead of an ETA/Dubois-Depraz piggyback model. With some of their new models and concepts though, in particular the Monaco V.4 and the Aquagraph 2000, that TAG-Heuer isn't afraid to innovate on movements or with the state of the art of what a serious tool watch can be.
One firm that I frequently mention as one that I am very fond of is Ventura. They too are a niche player in the market place. They have one very defined niche: Bauhaus watch design that I just absolutely love. The only Ventura models I don't like are some of the more recent garish gold and Diamond encrusted models which I feel break the Bauhaus mold. What I like about their designs is that they are so striking and beautiful they are going to still look modern and beautiful in 30 years. They are timeless. (I moved this paragraph/answer up one question... This is where it belongs)
How about the road that independent watch companies like Sinn, Tutima, Fortis, Bell&Ross, Chronoswiss take, to name a few?
All of the firms you mention have a perceived market niche and work hard to keep their products great standard bearers for that niche. Of the ones you mention, I personally group the first four: Sinn, Bell & Ross, Tutima and Fortis together a lot... In fact I sometimes call them the four little Germanic firms... Sinn has obvious German roots, Bell & Ross were essentially re-branded Sinn up until the introduction of the Space three about five years back. Tutima is German, and the Fortis product line and reason to be is so close to the other three it seems natural to group them together. Of those four Bell & Ross is the only brand I don't own an example of.
Chronoswiss is another interesting brand that has a narrow prescribed niche in which it operates in and sticks with it. I love their products, very pretty and a wonder to look at, I hope some day to own one some day. But they aren't my typical "big and bold, rough and rugged watch" fare.
Your preferences for chronograph movements is probably no secret, you like the Lemania movements best,
hmmm.... Yeah I guess. I like Lemania's a lot, probably best too.
especially the out-of-production Lemania 5100 movement.
I do have a fondness for that model, more so than many collectors, but there are other very strong 5100 fans out there.
What are you thoughts on Lemania movements in general (i.e. Omega/Lemania caliber 321, 861, 1861, 1040, Lemania 134x, Lemania 5100)?
Let me run through them in order too...
{Omega}c.321: A beautiful classic chronograph movement (along with the 27 CHRO c12, it's predecessor). A beautiful movement to behold, neither the Valjoux 72 series nor the Zenith HP146 movements (both fine movements) are as handsome as this movement. Tough as nails, has the column wheel instead of the c.861's lever-cam arrangement. Now, while 99 out of 100 chronograph collectors will tell you that they prefer the Column Wheel and the looks of an arched bridge, in terms of function there is little if any difference in actual day to day usage in my experience. This, I'm easy going on the Column-Wheel/Lever-Cam question.
{Omega}c.861 Family: Remember there are a number of variants of this movement. If Omega replaced the c.321 with anyone else, people would have descended on Bienne with torches and pitchforks. Every bit as tough s the c.321, easier to manufacture, higher beat movement, not as pretty as the c.321. Some people have accused me of having a preference for the c.321 in the past. I like them both. Both are great movements. c.1861... I'm odd that for some reason, I personally prefer silvery colored watches (Steel and Titanium) but I prefer gilt plated (Gold colored) movements. I can't explain why but I do. Aside from the color Rhodium is a superior material for plating watch movements [full stop].
{Omega}c.1040/c.1041 (Lemania 1342) : Kinda the odd man out in Lemania's chronograph lineup. It has an odd "common-axial" subdial at 9 o'clock that leads to a asymmetrical subdial layout that is, well... Odd. Hard to get used to, especially if you're used to the 5100 or Valjoux 7750 layouts. However, when you look at the movement in comparison to the 5100 the 1040/1041 is has a much nicer look and better level of finish than any 5100 I've seen save for the Alain Silberstein models. A very nice movement that is frequently lost in the shuffle because of it's odd dial-layout. Aside from the odd subdial layout the one thing I really don't care for on this base movement is the "quick change" date feature... On the c.134x models, it seems to have a heavy "camming" motion to the quick change, while on the 5100 and Valjoux 7750 it's a light crisp "snick-snick" feel to the action. I only have one of the c.1341 model Lemania's in a Wakmann perpetual calendar model. I haven't been particularly impressed with the Wakmann's performance. Perhaps I'll sample a Tissot c.1341 in the future.
{Omega c.1045} Lemania 5100: The "AK-47" of chronograph movements: accurate, dependable, reliable, can take punishment that no other watch can survive and keeps on ticking. Certainly not the prettiest movement in the world, or the most elegant of operation, but provides a multitude of information in the easiest to read layout of any watch with so complex of a feature set.
You didn't mention a couple of movements RJ, so I will... Valjoux 7750 family...
Correct, it was left out by purpose, since I am personally not very fond about it
Hmmm... Besides it's commonality is there any particular reason why you don't like it? I'm curious...
I also think it is not a very interesting movement to discuss, because like the non-chronograph ETA2892-A2 movement, it is very common. And qualitywise it is probably a great movement, as it has proven itself over the years in a diversity of watch brands like Omega, IWC, Breitling, Sinn, Chronoswiss and a whole lot of other brands. However, I think the competition, like the Lemania 5100 is just more interesting.
I suppose I can see that. I'm not a big fan of the Chevy small-block V-8 (I'm a Ford sort of guy) but even I admit that the Chevy is sound, a good design and the choice of many.
My personal 'against' the 7750 is the free spinning direction of this movement, the wobble it gives on the wrist doesn't feel 'good' for me. Anyway, at least one watch on my 'wanted-list is a Valjoux 7750 driven Panerai, so it is absolutely not the case that I don't want to own a 7750.
[Laughs] Danger RJ Broer DANGER! this is where the trouble starts, and the next thing you know you have handful's of them. Like a peanut, it's hard to stop after just having one.
However, feel free to talk about the 7750..
[Smiles] Ok, If the 5100 is the AK-47 of chronograph movements, the 7750 is the Swiss Army knife of chronograph movements. I'll run out of digits to count variations on before Swatch Group runs out of variations of this ubiquitous movement. While personally I prefer the 5100 for durability, ease of reading (that center chronograph minute hand again), and 24-Hour register, I also am fond of the 7750. Recently I purchased a Katun limited production run of the Sinn 144 GMT which has a GMT complication of the Valjoux 7750 and I really REALLY like that watch. If you are looking for a great full featured watch that has all the bells and whistles (but you can't get a 5100) the Sinn 144 GMT is a candidate worth considering. I know that nearly as many people in the "Haute Horology" crowd look down their collective noses at the 7750 as the Lemania 5100. Admittedly this is about the most common chronograph movement out there these days. But some movement has to be. It's a good solid movement, perhaps not the easiest or most exciting movement to service, but it gives a lot of bang for the buck and is a strong performer. I don't feel the 7750 family is as easy to read quickly or able to endure as much abuse as a 5100, but aside from those things it does everything else well in my book.
And then we have the piggybacking chronograph movements, the ETA/Dubois-Depraz movements. I handled a few, amongst them a Speedmaster Automatic. I never heard much complaints (except for accuracy, which is more or less different per movement of course) on these piggybacking movements. How do you look at these movements?
I suspect that my experience mirror's yours... I hear good things from owners about it being a good performer (timekeeping and operation), and I hear the other side (the chonograph module is a bear to work on and most watchmakers won't touch the module and will pitch and replace to the tune of $150 in cost). As I don't usually go for smaller chronographs I haven't felt compelled to own one. The other thing that bothers me about the Reduced (and hence other watches with this movement) is the swapping of the minute and small seconds on the dial. I'm sure it would be something I could get used to, but it must be like using a left-handed pair of sissors if you're a righty, it just seems odd.
On the larger issue of "Piggy-Back" vs. "ground-up" chronographs, I guess I don't have a big problem with Piggy-Back movements. I have a slew of Micro-Rotor chronographs (Heuer, Hamilton as well as Chrono-sport and even a Bulova "Parking Meter" Bullhead) as well as a couple of Heuer/TAG-Heuer's with the LWO 283 movement which features an ETA 2890 or ETA 2892 base timekeeping movement with a Lemania made piggyback chronograph movement. I've found the LWO's are excellent performers and I like them even though their subdial's have a different layout than the Lemania 7750. And of course there are the Tuning fork Chronographs I own which also have a piggy-back arrangement on a Tuning fork movement.
I guess to sum up, I think I'd recommend people stick with a "purpose-made" chronograph to start out unless a particular model really excites them. They can always explore piggybacks as they continue their collecting journey.
Back to the Valjoux-series, are you fond of the older Valjoux movements, like the Valjoux 72 family?
Yes, I am. I own a number of Valjoux 72's as well as the many variations: v.721 (Seafarer), v.723 (triple-date), several c.724's (GMT Complication), c.726 (Improved c.72), and a c.728 (single register with a center pinion chronograph minute counter (similar to the Lemania 5100 and 1341/2) and the v.88 (triple-date Moonphase. A very good solid movement. I don't feel it is as pretty as the Lemania 321 but it's very nice, more variation in features. The Valjoux has a number of very long and delicate levers that the Lemania either doesn't have or are shorter or much thicker, which contribute to the Lemania's reputation for robust movements that can take punishment well. BTW, for those who are interested the v.727 refers to the Rolex version of the Valjoux 72 typically.
I've said in the past, and drawn the ire of some moonwatch fans, when I've said I'm not comfortable blaming the 72 for the failure of Rolex and Longines in the NASA astronaut watch tests. One can't easily lay the blame for the disqualification of the Longines-Wittnauer (popped crystal) and Rolex (warped hands) competitors for the NASA testing at the feet of the Valjoux 72 because their failures were non-movement related issues. We may never know if, say, a Omega manufactured v.72 might have been able to have pass the NASA tests.
As for Zenith, you have a few El Primero driven watches,
A few. I received one between parts 1 and 2 of this conversation.
what do you think about this movement qualitywise?
I think in terms of technical design it's still the high water mark. Manufacture quality... It's the equal of anyone else's work in my opinion.
Is the movement hyped do you think,
Certainly it's acclaimed, in my opinion for good reason. Hyped? Perhaps, but not over hyped. I mean no other movement in mass production can do what it does, and it has done it for 35 years now.
or does it really live up to its quality-image on the several watchfora?
I feel it does, and I feel many other people would feel the same way.
Let me put it this way. How many Omega fans would line up to buy a moonwatch equipped with an El-Primero movement, how many Breitling owners? IWC? I think the line would go out the door.
Rolex used the Zenith El Primero movement for a while in their Daytona.
Yes, and they labored for a number of years to develop their own in-house movement. A move I applaud. That's a significant investment in resources and faith that the ends will justify the means.
Why would Rolex have downgraded the bph to 28800 instead of maintaining the 36000 bph and did some more changes in construction (like the escapement and balance), to maintain a certain quality in their Daytona models?
My knowledge of Rolex's motives is probably at the competent guessing level. But it's been my observation that Rolex prefers tradition, durability and ease of servicing over other considerations when there is a conflict. So they fine-tuned the movement to their tastes. No different than Carroll Shelby making changes in the GT-40's he was supplied in Ford's quest to win LeMans in the 1960's. A watch beating at 28,800 is not going to need service as frequently or as exotic of lubricants as Zenith uses in it's tune of the El-Primero.
An aside: I read a post in a Rolex forum this morning where someone posted the papers for a Bond Sub they had just acquired... The text of the service center page illustrates well Rolex's mindset:
OIL CHANGE EVERY 7000 MILES
The rim of a balance wheel travels 7000 miles in 18 months. That's time for an oil change. Every year to 18 months take your watch to an official Rolex servicing agent for oiling and cleaning, and if it's an Oyster, a waterproof check.
Rolex owners are known for using their watches the way an adventurer would use a Land Rover. Zenith has a different market segment it prefers. You'll notice the near complete lack of sports models in Zeniths more recent product lineups. Sport's models: Sub's, GMT's, 'Dwellers, Daytona's are Rolex's bread and butter.
Back to a more general point of view on watches and the watch business. Can you give me a quick thought on the Swiss watch industry, the German watch industry and the Japanese watch industry?
I'm not going to take these in order... But, hmmm...
Japanese watch industry... I think there was a time where they were incredibly innovative and aggressive in the marketplace, being among the first to develop an automatic chronograph movement, an early adopter of LED and LCD quartz technology, as well as realizing the benefits of analog quartz offerings, then for the most part they rested on their laurels for a while evolving instead of innovating. The past couple of years I've seen some really interesting ideas and things coming from Seiko and Citizen (especially) as well as Casio and even Timex. I've long said that one would be hard pressed to find a better deal "bang for the buck" than a Casio G-Shock watch. It's good to see some of the nifty new things, both technological and quality wise on the Japanese front.
The German brands... I'm going to assume you mean the German brands we were talking about earlier...
Well, I meant the German watch industry in general, which includes A. Lange & Söhne, Glashuette Original, Nomos etc.
For the most part these brands are outside my usual interest sphere. I admire the quality and inventiveness of their movement and configurations. They watches each create are technological a tour-de-force. However with these three they aren't going to be mistaken for tool watches. I will say that I personally consider Nomos to be one of the hidden gems of the watch industry. They make beautiful watches at a reasonable cost and every owner I've ever talked to has been thrilled with their purchase.
As for the German "Tool Watch" brands... The big problem they face is the supply of ebauches. Which involves the Swiss watch industry... Up until a couple of years ago all four of these brands: Sinn, Bell & Ross, Tutima and Fortis were heavily dependent on the Lemania 5100. Bell & Ross started transitioning about the same time they were cutting their ties with Sinn, and seem to be completely 7750 based. Sinn still has a few 5100 models available but they are getting scarce, and once they are gone... They are gone. Fortis started transitioning after Bell & Ross and with the exception of a limited edition B-42 is completely over to the 7750. Which leaves Tutima... I really don't know what Tutima's plans are. They are probably the smallest of these brands in terms of size and sales. It's possible they have a surplus of 5100's and can continue production for the time being and perhaps into the future. But sooner or later they too will have to switch to something.
Do you like the IWC Portugieser line any way, as a chronograph-nut?
I think the Portugieser line is an interesting line/watch and very very beautiful. I am not as big of a fan as many people are because I'm an hour-register sort of guy and I feel a chronograph lacking an hour register is of limited utility. I own several Porsche-Design/IWC Chronographs which I am very fond of. I wish they were still available new and still easily findable used at reasonable prices.
Ironically of the current IWC models the one I really like the most is the Da Vinci line. I think the Da Vinci (either the original or the Rattrapante) in Gold is the ultimate dress watch... In fact one I've heard my Ed. Heuer & Co. 125th Jubilee chronograph likened to a "Little Da Vinci", and if you look at the "Small Da Vinci" you can see why...
Full interview here - Part 1 and here - Part 2
Chucks Site here - Watch Reference Site
And all courtesy of Robert-Jan at - Fratello Watch Blog
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