Ultima Starter
Discussion
Hello to everyone!
The name's Kris
.I bought an Ultima Can-Am early last year and have been working on refurbing her the past year. She was a completed car but with a blown engine. I bought a new engine from Blueprint engines in the US and had the Gearbox (5 speed G50) rebuilt by a specialist locally. Did some other fettling work like rebuilding the shocks etc, fitting a central gear linkage (she had a side mounted one) and new brakes. I also ordered a new clutch (pressure plate, clutch disc etc), fuel pumps, etc and fitted these. All parts direct from Ultima.
I have had on and off issues with the car but have managed to get her running and got in some track time with her as well. My current problem is with my starter motor. The old starter chewed up the pinion and ring gears. I ordered a new starter but that didn't fit (it was too long) and have so far got no reply from the vendor (who assured me that it would fit and that it was built/tailored for the Ultima). I did manage to get a replacement pinion gear though so I rebuilt my original starter myself, replaced the ring gear and bolted everything together.
When I turned her over without plugs she turned over fine. But when I had the plugs in and tried to fire her up I heard the dreaded 'gnash' that told me the starter was 'skipping' or 'jumping' again. Removal of the starter and an inspection confirms this. It's obvious that the pinion isn't meshing well with the ring gear.
Has anyone else experienced this? Any solutions or ideas as to how to solve this? Any and all advice here much appreciated!
cheers,
Kris
The name's Kris
.I bought an Ultima Can-Am early last year and have been working on refurbing her the past year. She was a completed car but with a blown engine. I bought a new engine from Blueprint engines in the US and had the Gearbox (5 speed G50) rebuilt by a specialist locally. Did some other fettling work like rebuilding the shocks etc, fitting a central gear linkage (she had a side mounted one) and new brakes. I also ordered a new clutch (pressure plate, clutch disc etc), fuel pumps, etc and fitted these. All parts direct from Ultima.I have had on and off issues with the car but have managed to get her running and got in some track time with her as well. My current problem is with my starter motor. The old starter chewed up the pinion and ring gears. I ordered a new starter but that didn't fit (it was too long) and have so far got no reply from the vendor (who assured me that it would fit and that it was built/tailored for the Ultima). I did manage to get a replacement pinion gear though so I rebuilt my original starter myself, replaced the ring gear and bolted everything together.
When I turned her over without plugs she turned over fine. But when I had the plugs in and tried to fire her up I heard the dreaded 'gnash' that told me the starter was 'skipping' or 'jumping' again. Removal of the starter and an inspection confirms this. It's obvious that the pinion isn't meshing well with the ring gear.
Has anyone else experienced this? Any solutions or ideas as to how to solve this? Any and all advice here much appreciated!
cheers,
Kris
The variety of gearbox and engine combinations has resulted in a number of starter combinations being in use.
There are pinions with a different number of teeth (9 or 10 teeth if memory serves me).
Also engagement of the pinion can be an issue. On my 6 speed 'box I had to have the starter mounting face skimmed so the starter would engage further.
Speak to the Factory. They have seen them all.
Steve
There are pinions with a different number of teeth (9 or 10 teeth if memory serves me).
Also engagement of the pinion can be an issue. On my 6 speed 'box I had to have the starter mounting face skimmed so the starter would engage further.
Speak to the Factory. They have seen them all.
Steve
i recently had the problem with the starter motor being loosend from the starter adaptor plate. A known issue to the factory
which pointed me to this after a call to the factory. There are 2 allen screws that hold the motor to the plate I have now retightened
them with screw glue and hope not to experience the "gnash" again.
which pointed me to this after a call to the factory. There are 2 allen screws that hold the motor to the plate I have now retightened
them with screw glue and hope not to experience the "gnash" again.
There is also a version which has a permanent shaft known as the "long nosed starter" with this version the starter has a long shaft the end of which is permanently located in a hole adjacent with the ring gear there is a phosphor bronze bush that is located in this hole (a new one should be supplied with a new starter)if this is missing the shaft will move in the hole in such a way to allow the ring gear and pinion to slip.
below are a couple of photos of a "short nose" starter alongside a "long nose" starter.
Hopefully you can identify which type you have.
BTW there are quite a few different short nose starters with different numbers of teeth on the pinion.
below are a couple of photos of a "short nose" starter alongside a "long nose" starter.
Hopefully you can identify which type you have.
BTW there are quite a few different short nose starters with different numbers of teeth on the pinion.
Thanks for the replies guys! Steve, my starter had a nine tooth pinion which is what I ordered as a replacement. I noticed the same engagement issue you had as well ( have attached pic of my starter with the worn pinion, you can see the wear is right at the tip) and machined a new adaptor plate to allow the starter to sit further in and have more of the pinion engage.
Spatz, thanks for that tip, in fact in my rebuild of my starter I fitted new adaptor plate bolts and locked them down tight
.
F.C. My starter is the short nose, but here's the nub, Kennedy says that for a Chevy V8 to a G50, we should be using a long nose starter. Ultima supplies the short nose. The ring gear position and attendant pressure plate are of course different between the two. Kennedy claims that with the amount of torque required to turn over a high compression V8, the long nose is the correct option as the shaft and pinion gear are locked in place and can't twist away from meshing/engaging.
I just feel that my pinion is just too far away from the ring gear and am thinking of machining an adaptor plate that will move the pinion closer (1.0mm?). Has anyone had a similar issue, and would know if my course of action is correct? Or any advice for that matter?
Thanks in advance guys, keep those tips coming.
cheers,
Kris
Spatz, thanks for that tip, in fact in my rebuild of my starter I fitted new adaptor plate bolts and locked them down tight
.F.C. My starter is the short nose, but here's the nub, Kennedy says that for a Chevy V8 to a G50, we should be using a long nose starter. Ultima supplies the short nose. The ring gear position and attendant pressure plate are of course different between the two. Kennedy claims that with the amount of torque required to turn over a high compression V8, the long nose is the correct option as the shaft and pinion gear are locked in place and can't twist away from meshing/engaging.
I just feel that my pinion is just too far away from the ring gear and am thinking of machining an adaptor plate that will move the pinion closer (1.0mm?). Has anyone had a similar issue, and would know if my course of action is correct? Or any advice for that matter?
Thanks in advance guys, keep those tips coming.
cheers,
Kris
V
G50 boxes come in various sizes and case configurations.
Kris993tt said:
Thanks for the replies guys! Steve, my starter had a nine tooth pinion which is what I ordered as a replacement. I noticed the same engagement issue you had as well ( have attached pic of my starter with the worn pinion, you can see the wear is right at the tip) and machined a new adaptor plate to allow the starter to sit further in and have more of the pinion engage.
Spatz, thanks for that tip, in fact in my rebuild of my starter I fitted new adaptor plate bolts and locked them down tight.
F.C. My starter is the short nose, but here's the nub, Kennedy says that for a Chevy V8 to a G50, we should be using a long nose starter. Ultima supplies the short nose. The ring gear position and attendant pressure plate are of course different between the two. Kennedy claims that with the amount of torque required to turn over a high compression V8, the long nose is the correct option as the shaft and pinion gear are locked in place and can't twist away from meshing/engaging.
I just feel that my pinion is just too far away from the ring gear and am thinking of machining an adaptor plate that will move the pinion closer (1.0mm?). Has anyone had a similar issue, and would know if my course of action is correct? Or any advice for that matter?
Thanks in advance guys, keep those tips coming.
cheers,
Kris
Ultima supply ALL versions long and short according to your gearbox type.Spatz, thanks for that tip, in fact in my rebuild of my starter I fitted new adaptor plate bolts and locked them down tight
.F.C. My starter is the short nose, but here's the nub, Kennedy says that for a Chevy V8 to a G50, we should be using a long nose starter. Ultima supplies the short nose. The ring gear position and attendant pressure plate are of course different between the two. Kennedy claims that with the amount of torque required to turn over a high compression V8, the long nose is the correct option as the shaft and pinion gear are locked in place and can't twist away from meshing/engaging.
I just feel that my pinion is just too far away from the ring gear and am thinking of machining an adaptor plate that will move the pinion closer (1.0mm?). Has anyone had a similar issue, and would know if my course of action is correct? Or any advice for that matter?
Thanks in advance guys, keep those tips coming.
cheers,
Kris
G50 boxes come in various sizes and case configurations.
I can only advise you talk to the Factory. Richard has seen it all and there are many different starters.
Your starter is not engaging far enough and an additional 1mm will not fix the problem.
Call Richard and get his help (make sure he has his Superman pants on though!!). Worked for me when my starter made that horrible noise.
Paul
Your starter is not engaging far enough and an additional 1mm will not fix the problem.
Call Richard and get his help (make sure he has his Superman pants on though!!). Worked for me when my starter made that horrible noise.
Paul
Thx guys.
F.C. Ultima supplied me the clutch/pressure plate combo that precludes the use of the long nose. When I approached Kennedy Enginnering though, they were adamant that my G50 (a post '90 unit) should be running a long nose and that the flywheel, clutch plate, pressure plate and release bearing combo Ultima had supplied me was for an '87-'89 unit.
Besides this issue I have also been having problems with my clutch not having sufficient travel and not disengaging fully. The factory had advised that I should shim my gearbox back by about 1.5 mm but that didn't cure it. It did lead to the starter pinion failure though (in hindsight obvious but...).
I have since replaced the master cylinder with a .075" (Ultima had supplied me with a 0.70" in my list of ordered parts)and hopefully have cured my clutch travel issues. Won't know till I start her up of course!
Anyways, as to the starter problem, are most running the short nose? My combo is a post '90 G50 and my engine is basically a 6.5 liter Chevy SBC V8 with a post '86 crankshaft (single piece rear oil seal; counter weighted flywheel). Anyone with this combo and an idea which starter is to be used here?
BTW, My starter has a 10 tooth pinion
doh... Typed in 9 in an earlier email which was wrong.....
Again, everyone's thoughts, feedback and advice here welcomed
cheers,
Kris
F.C. Ultima supplied me the clutch/pressure plate combo that precludes the use of the long nose. When I approached Kennedy Enginnering though, they were adamant that my G50 (a post '90 unit) should be running a long nose and that the flywheel, clutch plate, pressure plate and release bearing combo Ultima had supplied me was for an '87-'89 unit.
Besides this issue I have also been having problems with my clutch not having sufficient travel and not disengaging fully. The factory had advised that I should shim my gearbox back by about 1.5 mm but that didn't cure it. It did lead to the starter pinion failure though (in hindsight obvious but...).
I have since replaced the master cylinder with a .075" (Ultima had supplied me with a 0.70" in my list of ordered parts)and hopefully have cured my clutch travel issues. Won't know till I start her up of course!
Anyways, as to the starter problem, are most running the short nose? My combo is a post '90 G50 and my engine is basically a 6.5 liter Chevy SBC V8 with a post '86 crankshaft (single piece rear oil seal; counter weighted flywheel). Anyone with this combo and an idea which starter is to be used here?
BTW, My starter has a 10 tooth pinion
doh... Typed in 9 in an earlier email which was wrong.....Again, everyone's thoughts, feedback and advice here welcomed
cheers,
Kris
Kris993tt said:
Thx guys.
F.C. Ultima supplied me the clutch/pressure plate combo that precludes the use of the long nose. When I approached Kennedy Enginnering though, they were adamant that my G50 (a post '90 unit) should be running a long nose and that the flywheel, clutch plate, pressure plate and release bearing combo Ultima had supplied me was for an '87-'89 unit.
Besides this issue I have also been having problems with my clutch not having sufficient travel and not disengaging fully. The factory had advised that I should shim my gearbox back by about 1.5 mm but that didn't cure it. It did lead to the starter pinion failure though (in hindsight obvious but...).
I have since replaced the master cylinder with a .075" (Ultima had supplied me with a 0.70" in my list of ordered parts)and hopefully have cured my clutch travel issues. Won't know till I start her up of course!
Anyways, as to the starter problem, are most running the short nose? My combo is a post '90 G50 and my engine is basically a 6.5 liter Chevy SBC V8 with a post '86 crankshaft (single piece rear oil seal; counter weighted flywheel). Anyone with this combo and an idea which starter is to be used here?
BTW, My starter has a 10 tooth pinion doh... Typed in 9 in an earlier email which was wrong.....
Again, everyone's thoughts, feedback and advice here welcomed
cheers,
Kris
Basically its the one with the short nose in my picture, it is made by Powerlite and has a reduction gear to start ANY high compression motor you care to throw at it.F.C. Ultima supplied me the clutch/pressure plate combo that precludes the use of the long nose. When I approached Kennedy Enginnering though, they were adamant that my G50 (a post '90 unit) should be running a long nose and that the flywheel, clutch plate, pressure plate and release bearing combo Ultima had supplied me was for an '87-'89 unit.
Besides this issue I have also been having problems with my clutch not having sufficient travel and not disengaging fully. The factory had advised that I should shim my gearbox back by about 1.5 mm but that didn't cure it. It did lead to the starter pinion failure though (in hindsight obvious but...).
I have since replaced the master cylinder with a .075" (Ultima had supplied me with a 0.70" in my list of ordered parts)and hopefully have cured my clutch travel issues. Won't know till I start her up of course!
Anyways, as to the starter problem, are most running the short nose? My combo is a post '90 G50 and my engine is basically a 6.5 liter Chevy SBC V8 with a post '86 crankshaft (single piece rear oil seal; counter weighted flywheel). Anyone with this combo and an idea which starter is to be used here?
BTW, My starter has a 10 tooth pinion
doh... Typed in 9 in an earlier email which was wrong.....Again, everyone's thoughts, feedback and advice here welcomed
cheers,
Kris
Give them a ring or mail them and they will sort you out and give you the number for local distributer.
Ask for George Shackleton.
http://www.powerlite-units.com/starter.htm
As I understand it.
All starters should be gearbox mounted.
It is possible to have a fly wheel mounted ring gear and long nose starter
or a pressure plate mounted ring gear and short nosed starter.
There is also the question on teeth numbers which I am not sure about but would cause the starter cog not to engage fully I guess.
All starters should be gearbox mounted.
It is possible to have a fly wheel mounted ring gear and long nose starter
or a pressure plate mounted ring gear and short nosed starter.
There is also the question on teeth numbers which I am not sure about but would cause the starter cog not to engage fully I guess.
Thanks for the replies guys.
My starter is gearbox mounted
F.C Thanks for the tip on Powerlite. I did send their dealers emails back in August (auto electric supplies and vehicle electrics shop). Neither bothered to reply. I had a look at Powerlites catalog and it appeared that their RAC701 was the right model. I even identified it as such to their dealers.....
Finally contacted a bunch called Lynx racing and I must say they're a great bunch to deal with. Quick, responsible and pro active. They're shipping out a replacement starter as we speak....
I think I know what the problem is. My old 'worn' pinion measured 26.79mm in diameter. The new pinion measures just 26.03. A difference of 0.73mm. And this from a pinion that was already slipping. I measured up everything again by placing just the pinion gear on a dummy shaft, placed it within the gearbox/starter mounting hole and checked the clearances. It would appear that I would need to shift the pinion toward the flywheel ring gear by at least 2.00 mm to engage properly ( with some clearance still between the 2 gears. I'm going to machine a new adaptor plate and try that. Will then bolt it all up, cross my fingers and try it!
cheers,
Kris
My starter is gearbox mounted
F.C Thanks for the tip on Powerlite. I did send their dealers emails back in August (auto electric supplies and vehicle electrics shop). Neither bothered to reply. I had a look at Powerlites catalog and it appeared that their RAC701 was the right model. I even identified it as such to their dealers.....
Finally contacted a bunch called Lynx racing and I must say they're a great bunch to deal with. Quick, responsible and pro active. They're shipping out a replacement starter as we speak....
I think I know what the problem is. My old 'worn' pinion measured 26.79mm in diameter. The new pinion measures just 26.03. A difference of 0.73mm. And this from a pinion that was already slipping. I measured up everything again by placing just the pinion gear on a dummy shaft, placed it within the gearbox/starter mounting hole and checked the clearances. It would appear that I would need to shift the pinion toward the flywheel ring gear by at least 2.00 mm to engage properly ( with some clearance still between the 2 gears. I'm going to machine a new adaptor plate and try that. Will then bolt it all up, cross my fingers and try it!
cheers,
Kris
Hi guys,
Problem solved. Thanks for the tips and brain storming. Sometimes just asking people clears the head and leads to a solution. My starter hadn't just a worn pinion gear. The pinion gear shaft bearings had a lot of play as well. I rebuilt the starter with all new bearings, heck I even changed all the assembly bolts. Fitted it back and she started up without problems!
Thanks again!
cheers,
Kris
Problem solved. Thanks for the tips and brain storming. Sometimes just asking people clears the head and leads to a solution. My starter hadn't just a worn pinion gear. The pinion gear shaft bearings had a lot of play as well. I rebuilt the starter with all new bearings, heck I even changed all the assembly bolts. Fitted it back and she started up without problems!
Thanks again!
cheers,
Kris
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