Anyone using in-ceiling or in-wall speakers?

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Should get the keys to our new gaff a week on Tuesday and our first room to get sorted will be the living room which of course means the home cinema needs sorting....

The "cinema" part that we currently have is this;

It's a electric screen that comes down and we sit the other way on our L shaped sofa to view. Works reasonably well with the onkyo amp and 5 x monitor audio in curling speakers taking care of the 5.1 surround sound.

My only concern is that the ceiling speakers have never been that good as the fronts and centre. The sound has always been week and undefined but as a clutter free set up its what I've stuck with.

This time however, I'm going to build the screen into a pelmet above the fireplace so I'm considering the following in a 7.2 surround layout;

Rear 2 x ceiling speakers
Rear sides 2 x ceiling speakers
Front left & right ???
Centre ???

This will be in a traditionally shaped 5mx5m room with us sitting directly facing the fireplace at the other end of the room;

(Pic from the sales brochure)

The rears I'm just thinking of some cheap Yamaha as they are simply surround effect speakers but the front set up I'm torn on! My only stipulation is they're white so they blend in.

Do I go for in wall forward facing to mount in the pelmet box I'll be building? Some in ceiling ones in front of the pelmet?

If possible, I'd rather not have wall mounted boxes or floorstanders as I don't really want the clutter, plus the screen would cover up the centre.

Edited by LaurasOtherHalf on Sunday 9th August 10:35

[OldSkoolRS]

You could build a set of MK IW85 or IW5 in wall speakers into the pelmet. That way you could buy some matching surround speakers such as the M4T tripole (available in white) which would better match the LCR (which does matter IMHO, though less critical than matching the LCR).

The IW85 are £475 (each):

http://mkloudspeakers.com/products-info/iw-85-in-w...

The IW5 are £375 (each):

http://mkloudspeakers.com/products-info/iw-5-ultra...

The M4T tripoles are £595 (a pair):

http://mkloudspeakers.com/products-info/m-4-t-trip...

Note you will need a sub to use with these speakers as they are strictly satellite speakers. MK do make subs as well if you navigate back from those links. However no reason why you couldn't go for something like a BK XLS400 subwoofer for around £400 in a variety of finishes to match your decor:

http://www.bkelec.com/hifi/sub_woofers/xxls400df.h...

[VEX]

I am planning to do the same thing but dropping infront of our patio doors.

I'll be looking at some narrow Monitor Audio, Sonance or SpeakerCrafts in wall LCR's but mount them horizontally across the boxing that will hide the projector screen.

The key is to ensure that at least the tweeters if not the whole speaker housing can rotate down to focus at the seating area.

If your running wires don't discount wiring for Dolby Atmos or Auro (3d sound) with some in ceiling effects speaker points. The overall effect it adds is quite amazing.

Agreed with needing a sub. The BK's are well known and good, but there is a new kid on the block with Golden Ear and their subs are deep and very controlled.

V.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

So my ideas aren't completely daft then?!

Just to clarify-LCR? Left centre and right? Ie the front three speakers?

Those MK ones linked may be good but I think a little more than I was thinking of spending. Try not to think of me as a tight arse!

My only concern about the pelmet idea is if I continue the coving around at the top of it, it'll need to be quite low in order to fit the speakers in. Thoughts?

Also, does the atmos require anything a 7.2 system doesn't (apart from an atmos amp of course). Thanks for the advice chaps it's been a while (neatly 10 years!) since I was into home cinema and hopefully if I get the set up right it'll last us another 10 years!

[PTE993]

I'm in a similar position...last time I looked at home cinema was 10+ yrs ago...now super excited about the prospect of kitting out a dedicated cinema room....Mrs is amenable too Had a listen to an Atmos set up at our local Audio-T and it was substantially more immersive when we compared it 7.1 and 5.1 (which is what I currently have). I'm installing 4 Monitor Audio CT280's in the ceiling re-using my existing speakers for the rest.

The only consideration for Atmos I've come across is if you want 7.2.4 (i.e. 4 in the ceiling rather than 2) the only Amp on the market that will do that out of the box is the Onkyo NR3030 which is quite pricey at over £2K. Whereas I've been told you can get say a Pioneer SC-LX58 for a grand and add in a power amp (£200-300)for the rear speakers I believe although I don't really know enough to comment on how that all works but it is an accepted approach I am told.

[OldSkoolRS]

There are a few new amps that will be available that can do 7.1.4 soon. Off hand the Denon X6200 and Marantz AV7010 which are well under the £2k of the Onkyo 3010. Also they will be HDCP 2.2 compatible and will have DTS:X as well as Dolby Atmos. I'm considering the Marantz AV7010 myself even though I use a separate power amp because to achieve 7.1.4 you need extra power amps anyway. I might as well use my better Arcam 7 channel amp for the main 7 channels and the internal one for the 4 ceiling speakers (I'm possibly going to use IW85 for the ceiling positions).

I did wonder if the IW85/IW5 might be above budget, but wasn't sure how much you wanted to spend. Yes LCR means 'Left, centre & right'.

[VEX]

There is a great article on Atmos on the Golden Ear website.

I have just started using their speakers for my installs and the bang per buck is amazing.

From their write up, rather than using focused inceiling speakers a defused speaker, fx or dual stereo seems to work better. The Monitor Audio FX range would be good for this.

V.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Ok so a good few things to digest just one question though.....

Considering my OP was about building a set up around ceiling or in wall speakers is a decent atmos system not just going to add loads more speakers that I was trying to avoid?

[OldSkoolRS]

Yes it is. A good 5.1 system is still worth having, even if the new object based sound formats are the 'latest thing'. I've seen a number of Atmos owners threads on AV forums and many haven't really got the basics properly sorted in any case (mixed speakers, badly located speakers, badly located subwoofer).

Adding more speakers to the mix isn't a guarantee of great sound, so IMHO just focus on getting the basics right. You can always upgrade later, but note that for Atmos you need the surrounds low down (just above seated ear height) which is where they ought to be for 5.1 anyway.

[VEX]

Agree totally with OldSkool.

But plan for the future and they are there if you or someone else ever wants them.

V.

[LaurasOtherHalf]

So I'm back to the original question, anyone have any experience of creating a great sounding system around ceiling and/or in wall speakers?

[NorthDave]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

So I'm back to the original question, anyone have any experience of creating a great sounding system around ceiling and/or in wall speakers?

I'd go ceiling speakers at least for the front left and right judging by your picture - I dont think you will get a wide enough sound stage due to the doors behind the fireplace otherwise. You could potentially put a wall speaker somewhere around the fireplace but I think it would look odd so I would probably go ceiling speaker for the front center too. Surrounds should also be ceiling speakers although you could possibly go lower in the range of budget is an issue. Definitely going to need a subwoofer, preferably somewhere at the screen end of the room.

You may need to spend some time setting it up properly - possibly even get it professionally calibrated - but it should sound good. There are more consumer level Atmos amps coming through so I agree you may as well cable for it.

Hope that helps.

[Crackie]

VEX said:

There is a great article on Atmos on the Golden Ear website.

I have just started using their speakers for my installs and the bang per buck is amazing.

From their write up, rather than using focused inceiling speakers a defused speaker, fx or dual stereo seems to work better. The Monitor Audio FX range would be good for this.

V.

Firstly.........Apologies to Laurasotherhalf for the hijack.

Hi VEX, do you recall a thread about Amina's speakers a couple of years ago on PH ?. You mentioned coming up to Amina to have a demo at the factory; I'd just like to extend the invitation again.

Golden Ear's thoughts on diffuse speakers are interesting because the power response and off axis behaviour of Amina's speakers make them arguably the most diffuse available. If you've not heard Aminas for a couple of years, the performance (bass extension, bandwidth, power handling and overall sound quality )will be very different to what you've heard previously. I'd certainly value your feedback comments.

Bearing in mind that I work in Amina's design department, I don't think its appropriate for me to reply to Laurasotherhalf's question "anyone have experience creating a great system based on in ceiling / in wall speakers."

Edited by Crackie on Monday 10th August 15:00

[OldSkoolRS]

NorthDave said:

I'd go ceiling speakers at least for the front left and right judging by your picture - I dont think you will get a wide enough sound stage due to the doors behind the fireplace otherwise. You could potentially put a wall speaker somewhere around the fireplace but I think it would look odd so I would probably go ceiling speaker for the front center too. Surrounds should also be ceiling speakers although you could possibly go lower in the range of budget is an issue. Definitely going to need a subwoofer, preferably somewhere at the screen end of the room.

You may need to spend some time setting it up properly - possibly even get it professionally calibrated - but it should sound good. There are more consumer level Atmos amps coming through so I agree you may as well cable for it.

Hope that helps.

I would suggest sticking with a ceiling speaker for the centre if the left/right will be ceiling speakers. Adding a different type/model/make of centre really doesn't work well as the sound changes as it moves across the front. Room eq doesn't necessarily resolve these differences either.

Regarding professional calibration of the sound; I have the tools and have learnt the skills to do this myself, however the set up routines in modern AVRs aren't so bad that a pro is needed to put them right. Perhaps a tweak of the crossovers (higher than the AVR sometimes sets) and sometimes an increase in the sub level is largely all that is necessary. Of course you can tweak sub distance (delay) settings and be more scientific with the crossover settings with external tools/software, but this really is the 'gilding the lilly' stage.

If you run the auto set routine and then ask on here for a sanity check of the settings then you'll be much of the way there. I think where an audio Pro would come in handy would be more to do with acoustic treatments/baffle wall design and perhaps integrating two or more subs.

Video calibration on the other hand can give quite significant improvements to the image (in particular with projectors), so if you haven't got the (decent) tools and skills to do this then I'd recommend a Pro in this case.

EDIT: Dolby don't recommend 'diffuse' speakers for Atmos positions, rather they recommend monopole (direct radiating) speakers, so I would tend to follow their recommendations unless the Atmos speakers are particularly close to the listener.

Edited by OldSkoolRS on Monday 10th August 15:21

[LaurasOtherHalf]

Ok, I've had a spare 10 mins this afternoon so I got the crayons out!

Considering that atmos might be a bridge too far at present, where do we think the speakers should be placed on the below diagram;


This is pretty much how we imagine the layout will be in the living room with us normally sat on sofa 1.

Above the living room is just roof space so wiring won't be an issue and I plan to keep the av equipment and sub where the TV points and sky cables are.

Do we go 7.1 surround? Or are we sitting too close towards the back of the room for that?

All walls are brick/block and dot and dabbed plaster board so again should be no issues routing cables etc.

[Crackie]

OldSkoolRS said:

EDIT: Dolby don't recommend 'diffuse' speakers for Atmos positions, rather they recommend monopole (direct radiating) speakers, so I would tend to follow their recommendations unless the Atmos speakers are particularly close to the listener.

Hi OldSkoolRS,
Not sure where you heard about Dolby not recommending diffuse speakers but I'm afraid that's incorrect. Dolby recommend that, for optimum Atmos effect, the aim is to achieve a diffuse height sound field where the listener cannot locate the specific position of individual speakers. To that end they recommend against narrow dispersion speakers and specifically recommend the use of wide dispersion speakers instead. Here is a link to Dolby's paper on the subject from April 2015....the image on page six shows the diffuse field, text at end of page 7 and the start of page 8 warns against being able to identify speaker positions and the need for creating a more diffuse experience.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmo...

Dolby and Auro 3D have kindly sent us demo disks to use for development work; we've not finished our demo room refit yet but initial tests are very encouraging.

Edited by Crackie on Monday 10th August 17:46

[LaurasOtherHalf]

And a brief idea of the pelmet design, the led lights will be the usual strip stuff from maplins that colour changes so that will add a bit of glow from the gaping hole where the projection screen will live.



I can't tell yet, but the from on the other side of the doors will be our dining room so hopefully when sat in there you won't be able to see up into the void where the screen is. Otherwise it'll look a bit crap.

[OldSkoolRS]

Crackie said:

Hi OldSkoolRS,
Not sure where you heard about Dolby not recommending diffuse speakers but I'm afraid that's incorrect. Dolby recommend that, for optimum Atmos effect, the aim is to achieve a diffuse height sound field where the listener cannot locate the specific position of individual speakers. To that end they recommend against narrow dispersion speakers and specifically recommend the use of wide dispersion speakers instead. Here is a link to Dolby's paper on the subject from April 2015....the image on page six shows the diffuse field, text at end of page 7 and the start of page 8 warns against being able to identify speaker positions and the need for creating a more diffuse experience.

http://www.dolby.com/us/en/technologies/dolby-atmo...

Dolby and Auro 3D have kindly sent us demo disks to use for development work; we've not finished our demo room refit yet but initial tests are very encouraging.

Edited by Crackie on Monday 10th August 17:46

Yes, I agree that they recommend wide dispersion speakers, but not diffuse (as in dipole/tripole). Perhaps we are at cross purposes here though, but it is my understanding that wide dispertion monopole speakers are what is recommended. This is so that there is good response off axis as the listener isn't directly in line with the speaker as they would be for the LCR for example.

I know there was some discussion over on AVForums when one forum sponsor recommended using tripole speakers (still does for that matter) in the ceiling positions.

Edited by OldSkoolRS on Monday 10th August 19:16

[rex]

LaurasOtherHalf said:

So I'm back to the original question, anyone have any experience of creating a great sounding system around ceiling and/or in wall speakers?

I have set up a system of in ceiling and in wall speakers. Used 5 in ceiling and 4 in wall ( of which 2 side effect speakers are used). In ceiling are triad bronze LCR and dipole rears. subs are 1 18 inch and 2 x 15 inch which are free standing.

Room is 5.4m x 5.4m

[LaurasOtherHalf]

rex said:

LaurasOtherHalf said:

So I'm back to the original question, anyone have any experience of creating a great sounding system around ceiling and/or in wall speakers?

I have set up a system of in ceiling and in wall speakers. Used 5 in ceiling and 4 in wall ( of which 2 side effect speakers are used). In ceiling are triad bronze LCR and dipole rears. subs are 1 18 inch and 2 x 15 inch which are free standing.

Room is 5.4m x 5.4m

Thanks for getting back on track!

On my drawing above, where would your speakers go? Your room is practically the same size as mine so I'd be really interested to hear how you've set it up-I haven't even heard of a 9 speaker system before (or is this a type of atmos system?).