Where is the value in second-hand hi-fi?
Discussion
I've been looking at getting a new hi-fi setup for the kitchen/dining room, just a mid/low-level integrated amp and a pair of bookshelf speakers (streaming source TBD).
My preference initially was to go second-hand and get better quality for a lower price but having looked around I'm starting to question if there is really much benefit in second-hand gear.
Couple of examples;
Roksan Kandy K2 - £500 new / cheapest on eBay is starting at £375
Marantz PM6005 - £300 new / selling on eBay for around £230
So, it seems you can save around 20% by going second hand but is that really worth the loss of guarantee and just the piece of mind that comes with a new product.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places or at the wrong gear - any suggestions about where to find the bargains would be greatly appreciated. For now, I'm not really tempted by what I can see on the second-hand market.
My preference initially was to go second-hand and get better quality for a lower price but having looked around I'm starting to question if there is really much benefit in second-hand gear.
Couple of examples;
Roksan Kandy K2 - £500 new / cheapest on eBay is starting at £375
Marantz PM6005 - £300 new / selling on eBay for around £230
So, it seems you can save around 20% by going second hand but is that really worth the loss of guarantee and just the piece of mind that comes with a new product.
Maybe I'm looking in the wrong places or at the wrong gear - any suggestions about where to find the bargains would be greatly appreciated. For now, I'm not really tempted by what I can see on the second-hand market.
Off the top of my head...
Hifiwigwam, Art of Sound and (to a lesser degree) AVforums should interest you.
Also, rather than concentrate on the latest and greatest it might be worth looking for something a tad older (or perhaps a couple of generations earlier in the same range) - amps and speakers haven't moved on that much if at all - daft paying say £150 for some nondescript small speaker from Richer Sounds when jewels like Elac Jets or Usher 520's are available at similar money used.
Www.hifiwigwam.com
Www.artofsound.net
https://www.avforums.com/categories/classified-adv...
Hifiwigwam, Art of Sound and (to a lesser degree) AVforums should interest you.
Also, rather than concentrate on the latest and greatest it might be worth looking for something a tad older (or perhaps a couple of generations earlier in the same range) - amps and speakers haven't moved on that much if at all - daft paying say £150 for some nondescript small speaker from Richer Sounds when jewels like Elac Jets or Usher 520's are available at similar money used.
Www.hifiwigwam.com
Www.artofsound.net
https://www.avforums.com/categories/classified-adv...
legzr1 said:
Off the top of my head...
Hifiwigwam, Art of Sound and (to a lesser degree) AVforums should interest you.
Also, rather than concentrate on the latest and greatest it might be worth looking for something a tad older (or perhaps a couple of generations earlier in the same range) - amps and speakers haven't moved on that much if at all - daft paying say £150 for some nondescript small speaker from Richer Sounds when jewels like Elac Jets or Usher 520's are available at similar money used.
Www.hifiwigwam.com
Www.artofsound.net
https://www.avforums.com/categories/classified-adv...
Thanks for the info.Hifiwigwam, Art of Sound and (to a lesser degree) AVforums should interest you.
Also, rather than concentrate on the latest and greatest it might be worth looking for something a tad older (or perhaps a couple of generations earlier in the same range) - amps and speakers haven't moved on that much if at all - daft paying say £150 for some nondescript small speaker from Richer Sounds when jewels like Elac Jets or Usher 520's are available at similar money used.
Www.hifiwigwam.com
Www.artofsound.net
https://www.avforums.com/categories/classified-adv...
I'm totally up for older stuff but don't have a great knowledge of what was good 5-10 years ago.
I'll have a look at the places you suggested and see what's available.
Do you have room for full size separates (I'm guessing so as you mentioned the Roksan) or is small form factor important?
I can have a quick look around and link some items later if you like?
Where are you positioning speakers? Wall mounted or on the floor with stands or full-size floorstanders?
I can have a quick look around and link some items later if you like?
Where are you positioning speakers? Wall mounted or on the floor with stands or full-size floorstanders?
Unless really high end, most hi-fi is white goods, disposable and worth a pittance after a few newer iterations.
If you are just looking for audio for your kitchen, pick any of the remium high street brands; Yamaha, Marantz, Cambridge, Denon, Pioneer, Sony etc. You can pick 10 year-old, perfectly serviceable equipment for the price of a few pints in the pub. Even looking at more expensive makes, such as Cyrus, can be bought for £100 or less, if you don’t need all the latest bells & whistles. I bought A Denon integrated amp and separate CD player 20 years ago for a grand. Both have been in continuous use since that day and both still work exactly as they should. Doubt I’d get £50 for the pair now.
As others have said, there haven’t really been great leap forwards in tech for amps & speakers in the last 20 years or so (certainly nothing like TVs for example). Mostly it’s just connectivity, media streaming, DACs etc. If you just want a simple amp & some speakers, then I’d definitely look second hand. Either make a huge saving over what you had budgeted for new, or get a much bigger bang for your buck by getting 5-10 old equipment that you would never be able to afford the equivalent new.
If you are just looking for audio for your kitchen, pick any of the remium high street brands; Yamaha, Marantz, Cambridge, Denon, Pioneer, Sony etc. You can pick 10 year-old, perfectly serviceable equipment for the price of a few pints in the pub. Even looking at more expensive makes, such as Cyrus, can be bought for £100 or less, if you don’t need all the latest bells & whistles. I bought A Denon integrated amp and separate CD player 20 years ago for a grand. Both have been in continuous use since that day and both still work exactly as they should. Doubt I’d get £50 for the pair now.
As others have said, there haven’t really been great leap forwards in tech for amps & speakers in the last 20 years or so (certainly nothing like TVs for example). Mostly it’s just connectivity, media streaming, DACs etc. If you just want a simple amp & some speakers, then I’d definitely look second hand. Either make a huge saving over what you had budgeted for new, or get a much bigger bang for your buck by getting 5-10 old equipment that you would never be able to afford the equivalent new.
Yes, I have room for separates so size isn't a real concern. I don't want the system to dominate the room so I'd prefer bookshelf speakers. I had planned to put them on a sideboard but maybe stands would be better.
Don't feel obliged to look but it would be greatly appreciated :-) Budget is max £500 for the amp but preferably closer to £400. Speakers about the same. Thanks!
Don't feel obliged to look but it would be greatly appreciated :-) Budget is max £500 for the amp but preferably closer to £400. Speakers about the same. Thanks!
mcbook said:
Yes, I have room for separates so size isn't a real concern. I don't want the system to dominate the room so I'd prefer bookshelf speakers. I had planned to put them on a sideboard but maybe stands would be better.
Don't feel obliged to look but it would be greatly appreciated :-) Budget is max £500 for the amp but preferably closer to £400. Speakers about the same. Thanks!
just a thought £800.00 for amp and speakers............http://www.kef.com/html/gb/showroom/digital_music_solutions/x_300a/x_300aw/index.html#.Vk3zZoAnz4gDon't feel obliged to look but it would be greatly appreciated :-) Budget is max £500 for the amp but preferably closer to £400. Speakers about the same. Thanks!
Stand mount speakers with excellent build quality using top spec drivers and crossovers which happen to sound brilliant and in budget (leaving enough for a decent pair of stands too):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jamo-Concert-8-Loudspeak...
They're a begin load and easy to drive so your choice of amp needn't be dictated by awkward, hard to drive speakers.
I have an idea for the amp but struggling to find one now - last month there were a few available but now, when they're needed?
Typical...
It would be overkill, totally outlandish and probably not the sort of thing you'd think of but I've owned one as a stop-gap some years ago and kept it for years I was that pleased with it...
And no, it's not a Chinese-produced valve amp that seem to have captivated the market lately.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jamo-Concert-8-Loudspeak...
They're a begin load and easy to drive so your choice of amp needn't be dictated by awkward, hard to drive speakers.
I have an idea for the amp but struggling to find one now - last month there were a few available but now, when they're needed?
Typical...
It would be overkill, totally outlandish and probably not the sort of thing you'd think of but I've owned one as a stop-gap some years ago and kept it for years I was that pleased with it...
And no, it's not a Chinese-produced valve amp that seem to have captivated the market lately.
Crackie said:
just a thought £800.00 for amp and speakers............http://www.kef.com/html/gb/showroom/digital_music_solutions/x_300a/x_300aw/index.html#.Vk3zZoAnz4g
Thanks for the suggestion: quite an interesting option and not a product that I had seen before. However, I think I'd like to keep it a little more traditional with a conventional amp and speakers. Never know what the future holds so would like the system to be flexible in terms of future application. legzr1 said:
Stand mount speakers with excellent build quality using top spec drivers and crossovers which happen to sound brilliant and in budget (leaving enough for a decent pair of stands too):
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jamo-Concert-8-Loudspeak...
They're a begin load and easy to drive so your choice of amp needn't be dictated by awkward, hard to drive speakers.
I have an idea for the amp but struggling to find one now - last month there were a few available but now, when they're needed?
Typical...
It would be overkill, totally outlandish and probably not the sort of thing you'd think of but I've owned one as a stop-gap some years ago and kept it for years I was that pleased with it...
And no, it's not a Chinese-produced valve amp that seem to have captivated the market lately.
The speakers are a great find! The fit the bill perfectly except for the fact that since they'll be on display in the dining room, SWMBO has a veto and I'm afaid 'cherry' is a no-go. Has to be either black or light oak colour.http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Jamo-Concert-8-Loudspeak...
They're a begin load and easy to drive so your choice of amp needn't be dictated by awkward, hard to drive speakers.
I have an idea for the amp but struggling to find one now - last month there were a few available but now, when they're needed?
Typical...
It would be overkill, totally outlandish and probably not the sort of thing you'd think of but I've owned one as a stop-gap some years ago and kept it for years I was that pleased with it...
And no, it's not a Chinese-produced valve amp that seem to have captivated the market lately.
Thanks for your efforts though - much appreciated!
You've got me on the edge of my seat with respect to the amp...
This Naim looks like decent value.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Naim-Nait-5I-Integrated-...
Auction ending today, might see if I can get it for less than £450...
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Naim-Nait-5I-Integrated-...
Auction ending today, might see if I can get it for less than £450...
Don't get too excited over the amp - bound to be a let down doing that 
There's a fair chance you'll know the brand and model...
They're currently going for around £650 - if you budgeted around a grand for amp + speakers that should give you enough to source some quality stand mount speakers.
I first heard the concert 8 years ago and had associated Jamo with hideous catalogue specials with huge paper bass drivers that didn't actually produce any bass (sure, they give an almighty bump at 80Hz which some associated with 'bass'!!).
The concert 8's shared a demo room with Martin Logan, B&W nautilus range and an assortment of Italian exotica - they didn't let themselves down.
They were being fed with the amp I eventually bought (and the one I'm trying to track down for your perusal lol) although the front end was a mega-bucks DCS system.
If you want to have a search yourself for small speakers in the £250 - £350 range (used) then I suggest looking at PMC (the little DB's are great and you wouldn't believe the bass they can produce for such a tiny cabinet), ProAc (the Tablette is probably out of budget but they do some cheaper models with the same sonic 'signature' - gorgeous little thing), Elac (the small Jet equipped model I mentioned earlier) and the Usher 520 are all speakers I've heard personally and have been impressed with.
So, this amp - it's a Krell, bottom of their range some time ago, slightly 'industrial' looks but fantastic build and reliability and the sound...well, I loved it.
Capable of getting bass from tiny speakers with grip and the ever so slightly smooth treble tamed metal dome tweeters without losing any sparkle.
There's a fair chance you'll know the brand and model...
They're currently going for around £650 - if you budgeted around a grand for amp + speakers that should give you enough to source some quality stand mount speakers.
I first heard the concert 8 years ago and had associated Jamo with hideous catalogue specials with huge paper bass drivers that didn't actually produce any bass (sure, they give an almighty bump at 80Hz which some associated with 'bass'!!).
The concert 8's shared a demo room with Martin Logan, B&W nautilus range and an assortment of Italian exotica - they didn't let themselves down.
They were being fed with the amp I eventually bought (and the one I'm trying to track down for your perusal lol) although the front end was a mega-bucks DCS system.
If you want to have a search yourself for small speakers in the £250 - £350 range (used) then I suggest looking at PMC (the little DB's are great and you wouldn't believe the bass they can produce for such a tiny cabinet), ProAc (the Tablette is probably out of budget but they do some cheaper models with the same sonic 'signature' - gorgeous little thing), Elac (the small Jet equipped model I mentioned earlier) and the Usher 520 are all speakers I've heard personally and have been impressed with.
So, this amp - it's a Krell, bottom of their range some time ago, slightly 'industrial' looks but fantastic build and reliability and the sound...well, I loved it.
Capable of getting bass from tiny speakers with grip and the ever so slightly smooth treble tamed metal dome tweeters without losing any sparkle.
legzr1 said:
If you want to have a search yourself for small speakers in the £250 - £350 range (used) then I suggest looking at PMC (the little DB's are great and you wouldn't believe the bass they can produce for such a tiny cabinet), ProAc (the Tablette is probably out of budget but they do some cheaper models with the same sonic 'signature' - gorgeous little thing), Elac (the small Jet equipped model I mentioned earlier) and the Usher 520 are all speakers I've heard personally and have been impressed with.
So, this amp - it's a Krell, bottom of their range some time ago, slightly 'industrial' looks but fantastic build and reliability and the sound...well, I loved it.
Capable of getting bass from tiny speakers with grip and the ever so slightly smooth treble tamed metal dome tweeters without losing any sparkle.
Thanks! This is the kind of knowledge that I'm sadly lacking and will really help my search. Appreciate the time taken to contribute to the thread.So, this amp - it's a Krell, bottom of their range some time ago, slightly 'industrial' looks but fantastic build and reliability and the sound...well, I loved it.
Capable of getting bass from tiny speakers with grip and the ever so slightly smooth treble tamed metal dome tweeters without losing any sparkle.
Naim really hold their value - that 5i will go for a minimum 70% of new price at a guess.
That's great for owners, not so good for buyers looking for a bargain.
Personally, I was never keen on the 'naim' sound but that was quick listens to earlier models - the newer stuff is supposed to be more 'rounded' - if you got it and didn't like it you'd have no issues re-selling with a negligible loss.
Krell:
http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/809/#IZx...
That's great for owners, not so good for buyers looking for a bargain.
Personally, I was never keen on the 'naim' sound but that was quick listens to earlier models - the newer stuff is supposed to be more 'rounded' - if you got it and didn't like it you'd have no issues re-selling with a negligible loss.
Krell:
http://www.stereophile.com/integratedamps/809/#IZx...
Leftfield choice which may tick all the boxes at around half your budget:
https://www.avforums.com/threads/avi-adm-9-1-activ...
Simply plug in your streamer/digital music server of choice and let the speakers handle digital conversion and pre and power duties all in nicely built boxes.
The earlier 9.0 versions are available even cheaper.
And they come in black
https://www.avforums.com/threads/avi-adm-9-1-activ...
Simply plug in your streamer/digital music server of choice and let the speakers handle digital conversion and pre and power duties all in nicely built boxes.
The earlier 9.0 versions are available even cheaper.
And they come in black
I got about 3k's worth of amp and speakers off ebay/hifiwigwam second hand for about 1/2 the original cost. The amp weighed in at 20kg and was couriered, the speakers were exchanged at a motorway service station.
Perfectly happy with both fronting a Sonos Connect. Some stuff on ebay can approach full values, in fact one NAIM amp I was following went for the same price as an end of line sale from a localish hifi shop. Some of the older Naim stuff goes for silly money on ebay, possibly more than it cost originally.
I sold my 20 year old Music Fidelity amp for 1/2 what I paid, and my 20 year old turntable for about 3/4 of what I paid. An audio innovations Moving Coil step up transformer sold for more than I paid for it 20 years ago.
If you are looking for decent stuff, I think 2nd hand is a good buy, I wouldn't bother with more recent or run of the mill stuff. Don't use ebay to get it cheaper, use ebay etc to get something better - that's my motto.
Perfectly happy with both fronting a Sonos Connect. Some stuff on ebay can approach full values, in fact one NAIM amp I was following went for the same price as an end of line sale from a localish hifi shop. Some of the older Naim stuff goes for silly money on ebay, possibly more than it cost originally.
I sold my 20 year old Music Fidelity amp for 1/2 what I paid, and my 20 year old turntable for about 3/4 of what I paid. An audio innovations Moving Coil step up transformer sold for more than I paid for it 20 years ago.
If you are looking for decent stuff, I think 2nd hand is a good buy, I wouldn't bother with more recent or run of the mill stuff. Don't use ebay to get it cheaper, use ebay etc to get something better - that's my motto.
Edited by sparkyhx on Friday 20th November 20:19
How about......?
A pair of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KEF-LS50-High-Gloss-Pian...
http://www.kef.com/html/gb/showroom/flagship_hi-fi...
driven by one of these
http://www.templeaudio.net/bantamgold.html
http://hifipig.com/temple-audio-bantam-gold-integr...
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/bantam_gold_e.html
A pair of these http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/KEF-LS50-High-Gloss-Pian...
http://www.kef.com/html/gb/showroom/flagship_hi-fi...
driven by one of these
http://www.templeaudio.net/bantamgold.html
http://hifipig.com/temple-audio-bantam-gold-integr...
http://www.tnt-audio.com/ampli/bantam_gold_e.html
Edited by Crackie on Saturday 21st November 16:14
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