Upgrading 30 year old separates
Discussion
Like most 16 year olds in 1987 (at least the ones I knew), I spent my summer earning money to buy budget hi-fi separates. From 1987-89 I bought a Technics SU-600 amp, Rega Planar 2 with AT cartridge, Wharfedale Delta 30s, Aiwa tape deck and Kenwood tuner. It was mostly all in commission until 2008 when we moved house, although I'd added some speaker stands, a Yamaha tape deck and a Cambridge Audio CD player. I'd also lost the Aiwa tape deck and Cambridge CD player though failures.
Cue today: I never really got round to unpacking the low budget hifi gear. I'm working overseas and so my spare time recently has been spent thinking about how to bin MP3s and s
t*y midi systems and get back to some sort of low level audio bliss.
I reckoned my amp and speakers were probably goosed, and I also replaced the CD player. Replacements were:
Onkyo A9010
Denon DCD 520 AE
Mission LX-2s
I got home last night and opened up the boxes this morning. Before I did so, I set up the old system and had a listen. I was horrified that that Rega Planar 2 sounded worse (with good vinyl) than the crap*y midi system and iPhone did. I did a piece by piece component replacement and discovered that the worst thing about my existing 30 year old set-up is my amp. The Onkyo was phenomenal in comparison.
Once I'd worked that out and set up the Missions, I had a good play with the vinyl I've not touched for years. I compared it to the CDs through the Denon and sadly worked out that the majority of my vinyl sounds poor thought the Rega Planar 2. Some exceptions were:
Jeff Beck's guitar shop
Pink Floyd's wish you were here
Tracey Chapman's crossroads
My turntable is, on the face of it, set up OK. I have the original protractor and checked all was ok. I checked counterweight and bias, and again all was ok. There was some dust on the cartridge thanks to the vinyl not having been played for 10 years, but I kept cleaning it off.
I think the thing that astounded me was that the vinyl generally sounded much worse than the CDs. I will buy a new cartridge and see if that helps. I will also take my Rega to a hifi shop and see whether it's not set up very well.
On the plus side, some of my CDs blew my away and my children (aged 12, 12 and 14) were gobsmacked by what 'budget' hifi sounds like. And I also cascaded the old Technics amp and Wharfedale speakers to the kitchen where they sound great.
Conclusions?
1. Old amps can degrade badly
2. Old speakers too - maybe
3. A 1980s budget turntable set-up may not cut the mustard today
4. The Onkyo amp is a winner
5. So are the Missions
!
Cue today: I never really got round to unpacking the low budget hifi gear. I'm working overseas and so my spare time recently has been spent thinking about how to bin MP3s and s
t*y midi systems and get back to some sort of low level audio bliss.I reckoned my amp and speakers were probably goosed, and I also replaced the CD player. Replacements were:
Onkyo A9010
Denon DCD 520 AE
Mission LX-2s
I got home last night and opened up the boxes this morning. Before I did so, I set up the old system and had a listen. I was horrified that that Rega Planar 2 sounded worse (with good vinyl) than the crap*y midi system and iPhone did. I did a piece by piece component replacement and discovered that the worst thing about my existing 30 year old set-up is my amp. The Onkyo was phenomenal in comparison.
Once I'd worked that out and set up the Missions, I had a good play with the vinyl I've not touched for years. I compared it to the CDs through the Denon and sadly worked out that the majority of my vinyl sounds poor thought the Rega Planar 2. Some exceptions were:
Jeff Beck's guitar shop
Pink Floyd's wish you were here
Tracey Chapman's crossroads
My turntable is, on the face of it, set up OK. I have the original protractor and checked all was ok. I checked counterweight and bias, and again all was ok. There was some dust on the cartridge thanks to the vinyl not having been played for 10 years, but I kept cleaning it off.
I think the thing that astounded me was that the vinyl generally sounded much worse than the CDs. I will buy a new cartridge and see if that helps. I will also take my Rega to a hifi shop and see whether it's not set up very well.
On the plus side, some of my CDs blew my away and my children (aged 12, 12 and 14) were gobsmacked by what 'budget' hifi sounds like. And I also cascaded the old Technics amp and Wharfedale speakers to the kitchen where they sound great.
Conclusions?
1. Old amps can degrade badly
2. Old speakers too - maybe
3. A 1980s budget turntable set-up may not cut the mustard today
4. The Onkyo amp is a winner
5. So are the Missions
!
I have just started to recommission an old Dual turntable. Got it running now, so I'll strip down and get the speed change working properly (it is temperamental).
We listened to
Abbey Road - Bought pretty much at release by the FiL.
Elbow - Take off and landing of everything (mostly yawn)
Heligoland - Creosote and tar. Warped to buggery..
First thing I would do is check the cartridge connections in the tonearm in case of corrosion. Pencil Eraser is really good at cleaning contacts. This gave me 2 working channels of audio!
Chances are you have a AT95E cartridge (Green Stylus holder?). These are available for about £24 ( I put one in the Dual), so not much more than a stylus. Rega Bias is good, but quite a lot more expensive. It might be worth cleaning and lubricating the bearing on the turntable also.
The Planar 2 is so simple that you should be able to assess it quickly.
Might be worth seeing if you can trial a phono preamp from your local dealer, Project do some reasonably priced ones, that should show whether you have a weak phono stage in your amp.
We listened to
Abbey Road - Bought pretty much at release by the FiL.
Elbow - Take off and landing of everything (mostly yawn)
Heligoland - Creosote and tar. Warped to buggery..
First thing I would do is check the cartridge connections in the tonearm in case of corrosion. Pencil Eraser is really good at cleaning contacts. This gave me 2 working channels of audio!
Chances are you have a AT95E cartridge (Green Stylus holder?). These are available for about £24 ( I put one in the Dual), so not much more than a stylus. Rega Bias is good, but quite a lot more expensive. It might be worth cleaning and lubricating the bearing on the turntable also.
The Planar 2 is so simple that you should be able to assess it quickly.
Might be worth seeing if you can trial a phono preamp from your local dealer, Project do some reasonably priced ones, that should show whether you have a weak phono stage in your amp.
My 1986 Dual 505-2 died in 2001 and I replaced it with a Project 6.1 with a Denon MC cartridge. Back then, I was still using my 1986 Rotel RA820 and KEF C10s. They are now long retired, but the Project turntable does a great job through a Project TubeBox phone stage into my Cyrus monoblock system. The sound is different from, but as enjoyable as that from my Cyrus CD XT-SE/PSX-R two box CD transport that cost a heck of a lot more.
Well, I went a bit postal and purchased an Ortofon 2m blue (which cost more than the turntable did back in the day, and which is probably far too good for a Rega Planar 2) and also upgraded the drive belt. What a truly unbelievable transformation! I am blown away by how good it sounds. The AT110E (not a 95E as I posted above) must have been utterly goosed.
Happy days.
Happy days.
What a timely thread!
After building a man-cave log cabin at the bottom of the garden for my sons, I retrieved my Denon separates from the loft and hooked them all up in there with a pair of Celestion DL8s at the weekend.
I expected the CD drive belts to have long since perished and same for the tape deck and Dual turntable - but no! It had survived the ravages of time and at least 3 house moves and simply rocked
My sons were in awe of it having never heard a 'proper' separates hi-fi setup. With AC/DC 'Back in black' as the maiden CD, they were blown away (almost literally 
)
I worked in a hi-fi shop on Saturdays in my teens in the 80s (Mission, NAD, Kef, Quad, Cambridge, Celestion, Nakamichi - sold so many Dragons! - Rotel, Marantz, Technics etc. as well as more mainstream fare like Kenwood) and gradually built up a decent system. Just goes to show, quality lasts!!
After building a man-cave log cabin at the bottom of the garden for my sons, I retrieved my Denon separates from the loft and hooked them all up in there with a pair of Celestion DL8s at the weekend.
I expected the CD drive belts to have long since perished and same for the tape deck and Dual turntable - but no! It had survived the ravages of time and at least 3 house moves and simply rocked
My sons were in awe of it having never heard a 'proper' separates hi-fi setup. With AC/DC 'Back in black' as the maiden CD, they were blown away (almost literally )I worked in a hi-fi shop on Saturdays in my teens in the 80s (Mission, NAD, Kef, Quad, Cambridge, Celestion, Nakamichi - sold so many Dragons! - Rotel, Marantz, Technics etc. as well as more mainstream fare like Kenwood) and gradually built up a decent system. Just goes to show, quality lasts!!
Edited by Stig on Wednesday 3rd May 17:12
Stig said:
What a timely thread!
After building a man-cave log cabin at the bottom of the garden for my sons, I retrieved my Denon separates from the loft and hooked them all up in there with a pair of Celestion DL8s at the weekend.
I expected the CD drive belts to have long since perished and same for the tape deck and Dual turntable - but no! It had survived the ravages of time and at least 3 house moves and simply rocked My sons were in awe of it having never heard a 'proper' separates hi-fi setup. With AC/DC 'Back in black' as the maiden CD, they were blown away (almost literally )
I worked in a hi-fi shop on Saturdays in my teens in the 80s (Mission, NAD, Kef, Quad, Cambridge, Celestion, Nakamichi - sold so many Dragons! - Rotel, Marantz, Technics etc. as well as more mainstream fare like Kenwood) and gradually built up a decent system. Just goes to show, quality lasts!!
I always coveted the CR7e - amazing what old analogue tape was capable of when using sensible recording levels onto metal tape.After building a man-cave log cabin at the bottom of the garden for my sons, I retrieved my Denon separates from the loft and hooked them all up in there with a pair of Celestion DL8s at the weekend.
I expected the CD drive belts to have long since perished and same for the tape deck and Dual turntable - but no! It had survived the ravages of time and at least 3 house moves and simply rocked
My sons were in awe of it having never heard a 'proper' separates hi-fi setup. With AC/DC 'Back in black' as the maiden CD, they were blown away (almost literally )I worked in a hi-fi shop on Saturdays in my teens in the 80s (Mission, NAD, Kef, Quad, Cambridge, Celestion, Nakamichi - sold so many Dragons! - Rotel, Marantz, Technics etc. as well as more mainstream fare like Kenwood) and gradually built up a decent system. Just goes to show, quality lasts!!
Edited by Stig on Wednesday 3rd May 17:12
legzr1 said:
I always coveted the CR7e - amazing what old analogue tape was capable of when using sensible recording levels onto metal tape.
Indeed, I still use my NAD 6100 regularly. Nowt wrong with decent cassette tape. Would love to own a Dragon though, was always on my wishlist.Going a little bit back on topic, I'm not surprised the new cartridge made all the difference, the old Rega decks are simplicity defined so not much can go wrong there as long as the motor is turning properly. The OM2 blue is excellent - I have one on my Pro-Ject.
Old amps can still sound great, it mostly depends on the capacitors inside. I've "recapped" a few and it can make a huge difference. It's also not expensive and fairly simple (you don't need to spend loads on "audiophile" capacitors, decent ones from Panasonic or similar work perfectly).
I run a mix of old (Naim cd player, NAD cassette deck) and modern (Arcam A29 amp, pro-ject turntable) and just selected things by what I felt sounded nice.
I did splash out on an expensive (for me, not expensive if you move in high-end audio circles) Chord 2qute DAC to connect my SONOS and computer to the amp which means I'm now blissfully happy with almost any source (except, SACD or DVD-Audio which I can't play)
w1bbles said:
Well, I went a bit postal and purchased an Ortofon 2m blue (which cost more than the turntable did back in the day, and which is probably far too good for a Rega Planar 2) and also upgraded the drive belt. What a truly unbelievable transformation! I am blown away by how good it sounds. The AT110E (not a 95E as I posted above) must have been utterly goosed.
Happy days.
I might have to upgrade my Planar 2 in that case. It currently has a Linn K5 fitted, and in comparisons with an ageing Sony CD player, the CD wins ('Back in Black' in particular sounds way better on CD).Happy days.
the Onkyo amp gets a good write up. I'll be upgrading my setup soon. It sounded great when I was a teenager but I have it setup in a much larger room now so that might have some bearing in your case too?
My old and not so good setup...
Marantz 6010 OSE amp
old Marantz CD player
Tannoy Profile 632 speakers
Project Debut SE 3 (new)
Trouble is that most of my music playing now comes from Spotify premium which I have an iPad running into the amp via RCA/headphone jack. Not impressed with the sound at all from this setup so I've been investigating amps, streamers, DAC and all in one boxes.
I've been looking into the Onkyo TX-8150 (Spotify connect, digital inputs, DAC, phono stage, etc.) with some Monitor audio bronze 6 floorstanders. Happy to keep the CD player and turntable for the amount I use them. Just waiting for my local richer sounds to get the Onkyo unit back in stock to have a demo.
My old and not so good setup...
Marantz 6010 OSE amp
old Marantz CD player
Tannoy Profile 632 speakers
Project Debut SE 3 (new)
Trouble is that most of my music playing now comes from Spotify premium which I have an iPad running into the amp via RCA/headphone jack. Not impressed with the sound at all from this setup so I've been investigating amps, streamers, DAC and all in one boxes.
I've been looking into the Onkyo TX-8150 (Spotify connect, digital inputs, DAC, phono stage, etc.) with some Monitor audio bronze 6 floorstanders. Happy to keep the CD player and turntable for the amount I use them. Just waiting for my local richer sounds to get the Onkyo unit back in stock to have a demo.
I've just gone utterly loopy-loo and have bought an Ariston AR11 on which to mount my Ortofon 2m blue. I am so enamoured by the sound of my vinyl on the Rega that I've sat and listened to album after album this week (I'm on holiday before you accuse me of being retired or unemployed!). I'd forgotten how vinyl engages to the point where I want to sit and listen for the sheer enjoyment of it, rather than having Spotify on in the kitchen while cooking.
So - the Ariston is a Dunlop Westayr one and therefore not quite so closely linked genetically to the LP12 but I am still very excited (to be the proud owner of a 1973 antique!). It's also got an RB250 arm so the Ortofon will be fining its way onto the Ariston and I've bought an AT95E for the Rega, which I'll donate to whichever of my children that get the music bug.
The Onkyo is a superstar and the Missions aren't too shabby either, although I'd prefer floor standers.
I think I've re-found my youth ;-)
So - the Ariston is a Dunlop Westayr one and therefore not quite so closely linked genetically to the LP12 but I am still very excited (to be the proud owner of a 1973 antique!). It's also got an RB250 arm so the Ortofon will be fining its way onto the Ariston and I've bought an AT95E for the Rega, which I'll donate to whichever of my children that get the music bug.
The Onkyo is a superstar and the Missions aren't too shabby either, although I'd prefer floor standers.
I think I've re-found my youth ;-)
TonyRPH said:
The Marantz is actually a very good amp, apart from suffering from dry joints (but then they usually don't work at all).
The limiting factor in your case is likely to be the source (spotify + iPad).
The amp isn't bad although I find the lack of bass/treble controls a pain as I'd sometimes like to get a bit more bass from my electronic collection. I also suspect the speakers are not the best match or the most refined. The limiting factor in your case is likely to be the source (spotify + iPad).
I think you're right about the iPad/Spotify setup though. I'm still not sure whether to get a new budget amp with digital inputs like the Marantz PM6006 as Richer Sounds often have deals for as little as £250. If I did I'd have to go down the Chromecast/Apple TV route to stream my music. The alternative is to stick with my plan and spend more on the Onkyo TX-8150. I'm not sure whether the Chrome/Apple TV route will sound good enough?
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