Do I Still Need An AV Receiver?
Discussion
I currently run a 2.1 setup driving a pair of B&W 602 S2's and a BK Elec XLS200 sub. I would like to retain the option to possibly upgrade to 5.1/7.1, although I doubt I'll ever go down the Atmos route. All of my media (music & film) is streamed through a Shield TV (and Plex server), hence only requiring the one HDMI input, one output back to the TV, HDR and 4k.
My 15 year old Pioneer AVR has just died and I am in need of a replacement. Having spent the morning researching options, it seems that soundbars have overtaken the sale of AVR's and I am a potential dinosaur looking for old ways of doing new tech!?
A soundbar seems a step backward compared to a decent speaker setup, especially for music, although I'm happy to be educated here. AV Receivers are crammed with so much tech and marketing features these days - most of which I don't need, together with multiple source switching capabilities - none of which I need, which makes me wonder whether there's a better more streamlined solution for my needs which concentrates on the audio processing and amplification only (i.e. an AVR capable of driving larger speakers, with only one or two source inputs, 4k HDR passthrough, DTS/DD processing)?
I'm budgeting about £600 with Black Friday sales approaching. Any pointers on what I should be looking for or changing in my setup?
My 15 year old Pioneer AVR has just died and I am in need of a replacement. Having spent the morning researching options, it seems that soundbars have overtaken the sale of AVR's and I am a potential dinosaur looking for old ways of doing new tech!?
A soundbar seems a step backward compared to a decent speaker setup, especially for music, although I'm happy to be educated here. AV Receivers are crammed with so much tech and marketing features these days - most of which I don't need, together with multiple source switching capabilities - none of which I need, which makes me wonder whether there's a better more streamlined solution for my needs which concentrates on the audio processing and amplification only (i.e. an AVR capable of driving larger speakers, with only one or two source inputs, 4k HDR passthrough, DTS/DD processing)?
I'm budgeting about £600 with Black Friday sales approaching. Any pointers on what I should be looking for or changing in my setup?
EViS said:
I currently run a 2.1 setup driving a pair of B&W 602 S2's and a BK Elec XLS200 sub. I would like to retain the option to possibly upgrade to 5.1/7.1, although I doubt I'll ever go down the Atmos route. All of my media (music & film) is streamed through a Shield TV (and Plex server), hence only requiring the one HDMI input, one output back to the TV, HDR and 4k.
My 15 year old Pioneer AVR has just died and I am in need of a replacement. Having spent the morning researching options, it seems that soundbars have overtaken the sale of AVR's and I am a potential dinosaur looking for old ways of doing new tech!?
A soundbar seems a step backward compared to a decent speaker setup, especially for music, although I'm happy to be educated here. AV Receivers are crammed with so much tech and marketing features these days - most of which I don't need, together with multiple source switching capabilities - none of which I need, which makes me wonder whether there's a better more streamlined solution for my needs which concentrates on the audio processing and amplification only (i.e. an AVR capable of driving larger speakers, with only one or two source inputs, 4k HDR passthrough, DTS/DD processing)?
I'm budgeting about £600 with Black Friday sales approaching. Any pointers on what I should be looking for or changing in my setup?
Sound bars are very poor compared to any sort of Hi-Fi speakers and amp. The lowest of the low, scraping the bottom of the barrel really. My 15 year old Pioneer AVR has just died and I am in need of a replacement. Having spent the morning researching options, it seems that soundbars have overtaken the sale of AVR's and I am a potential dinosaur looking for old ways of doing new tech!?
A soundbar seems a step backward compared to a decent speaker setup, especially for music, although I'm happy to be educated here. AV Receivers are crammed with so much tech and marketing features these days - most of which I don't need, together with multiple source switching capabilities - none of which I need, which makes me wonder whether there's a better more streamlined solution for my needs which concentrates on the audio processing and amplification only (i.e. an AVR capable of driving larger speakers, with only one or two source inputs, 4k HDR passthrough, DTS/DD processing)?
I'm budgeting about £600 with Black Friday sales approaching. Any pointers on what I should be looking for or changing in my setup?
You need to buy an AV amp, as there are no budget 2.1 AV amps, designed with most featured removed, that can be upgraded to 5.1 or 7.1 later.
There is an amp a little like you want from Arcam, which still has lots of inputs, but zero upgrade options. The SR250 is £2500 rrp, but there are deals as this is a run out model now.
Mostly Hi-Fi brands like Cyrus, Naim and NAD, now build 2ch amps, with ARC HDMI inputs, for connection to a TV. The Cyrus is cheapest at around £1299.
Go and buy a Denon AVR-X2600 (or a 3600 on Black Friday fingers crossed on the price)
The tech you need is there, plus some you’ll grow into if you expand to multi-channel.
The Audyssey will make a massive change to the 2.1 reproduction, but you can still listen without it for music if you wanted to. I doubt you would though.
You can bi-amp your speakers using 4 channels, which will help lots, as in the ideal world, you’d be thinking several models up the range with speakers as good as you have!
The 602s were quite an unusual and amazing product. A plain Hi-Fi amp around 800-1000 was a common partnering at the time and they worked so much better with the higher outputs.
The modern room EQ capabilities of good AV amps, mean that you can balance the speakers to the room, then decide where to cross over the sub.
The higher the point you select, the more power your amp will essentially have.
The on paper watts per channel mean absolutely zero, so you can’t compare to any Hi-Fi amp.
A 60watt Hi-Fi amp from a top brand, will be more powerful that a modest AV amp with 140watts per channel. Annoying for consumers, as it does cause a lot of confusion!
There is no way of getting all that you do want, with nothing that you don’t
However, the modern AV amp offers such an amazing value proposition, you should get one and not worry about it
Wow, solid reply Red 5 and further backs up everything I researched over on avforums!
It seems the popularity of the soundbar is merely in its offering of a clean look, minimal fuss and ease of usability. An excellent offering to the average consumer, but hugely compromising on quality as you say.
I've ordered a Denon X3500H from Peter Tyson. Already discounted by 45% to £500 with a 3 year warranty and a 'black Friday promise' to refund the difference should it be discounted any further. I was torn between this, the X4500 (with a larger PSU and improved AL32 processor) or a Marantz SR6013 (for its improved music capabilities) - both at a very good sale price too. However, the value for money and overall technical package offered by the X3500 was too appealing. Good to hear you are recommending the same.
Once I get around to upgrading my current setup to 5.1/7.1 with additional speakers from the B&W 600 range, would you think the X3500 will have sufficient power (and headroom) to drive these at reference levels or slightly above? Or would I need to start looking into poweramps or a higher level of AVR (and the price bracket that comes with it)?
It seems the popularity of the soundbar is merely in its offering of a clean look, minimal fuss and ease of usability. An excellent offering to the average consumer, but hugely compromising on quality as you say.
I've ordered a Denon X3500H from Peter Tyson. Already discounted by 45% to £500 with a 3 year warranty and a 'black Friday promise' to refund the difference should it be discounted any further. I was torn between this, the X4500 (with a larger PSU and improved AL32 processor) or a Marantz SR6013 (for its improved music capabilities) - both at a very good sale price too. However, the value for money and overall technical package offered by the X3500 was too appealing. Good to hear you are recommending the same.
Once I get around to upgrading my current setup to 5.1/7.1 with additional speakers from the B&W 600 range, would you think the X3500 will have sufficient power (and headroom) to drive these at reference levels or slightly above? Or would I need to start looking into poweramps or a higher level of AVR (and the price bracket that comes with it)?
Edited by EViS on Wednesday 30th October 10:24
EViS said:
Wow, solid reply Red 5 and further backs up everything I researched over on avforums!
It seems the popularity of the soundbar is merely in its offering of a clean look, minimal fuss and ease of usability. An excellent offering to the average consumer, but hugely compromising on quality as you say.
I've ordered a Denon X3500H from Peter Tyson. Already discounted by 45% to £500 with a 3 year warranty and a 'black Friday promise' to refund the difference should it be discounted any further. I was torn between this, the X4500 (with a larger PSU and improved AL32 processor) or a Marantz SR6013 (for its improved music capabilities) - both at a very good sale price too. However, the value for money and overall technical package offered by the X3500 was too appealing. Good to hear you are recommending the same.
Once I get around to upgrading my current setup to 5.1/7.1 with additional speakers from the B&W 600 range, would you think the X3500 will have sufficient power (and headroom) to drive these at reference levels or slightly above? Or would I need to start looking into poweramps or a higher level of AVR (and the price bracket that comes with it)?
Nice one. The 3500 is great and that’s a mega deal! It seems the popularity of the soundbar is merely in its offering of a clean look, minimal fuss and ease of usability. An excellent offering to the average consumer, but hugely compromising on quality as you say.
I've ordered a Denon X3500H from Peter Tyson. Already discounted by 45% to £500 with a 3 year warranty and a 'black Friday promise' to refund the difference should it be discounted any further. I was torn between this, the X4500 (with a larger PSU and improved AL32 processor) or a Marantz SR6013 (for its improved music capabilities) - both at a very good sale price too. However, the value for money and overall technical package offered by the X3500 was too appealing. Good to hear you are recommending the same.
Once I get around to upgrading my current setup to 5.1/7.1 with additional speakers from the B&W 600 range, would you think the X3500 will have sufficient power (and headroom) to drive these at reference levels or slightly above? Or would I need to start looking into poweramps or a higher level of AVR (and the price bracket that comes with it)?
Edited by EViS on Wednesday 30th October 10:24
Use it as it is and enjoy. Add other speakers as you want, keeping the bi-amp on the L/R.
Then at some point down the line, add a power amp to give the 602s more of what they deserve.
Anything will play at reference levels. It’s a volume level, not a quality level though.
If you set the cross-overs really high, you’ll reach those volumes without damage.
The thought of 3500 / 600 series at reference levels makes my teeth itch. I think half that volume will be more realistic and still very loud (-5 to -6db)
To listen comfortably at ref (0db in the cinema volume scale) you’ll need to achieve a flat response at that level, or things will sound very strained and harsh.
This is very expensive to achieve, even in normal sized rooms.
There would be power amps and multiple large subs.
Most people will run out of the room if a system is played at ref level anyway, as it’s generally way too loud for domestic viewing.
Ge the amp and run the bi-wire cables with links out. Set up the amp allocation etc
Makes sure the sub has cross-over dial set to maximum possible.
Then run the set-up in three locations only, on the main sofa.
Then go into manual speaker settings and set the 602 to small and cross-over to 80hz.
Give that a try an see how you get on
Are your speakers S2, or S3?
Be aware, spares for S2 are already all gone!
S3 parts are getting thin on the ground, but 602 still fetch good money on eBay.
I’m not saying you should sell now, but do think about a switch to a newer model at some point perhaps?
VERY impressed with the X3500, what an upgrade! 
I set everything up before seeing your reply. I've set the cross-over to 80hz, although I may play around with lowering this to 60hz. However, I ran the full 8 tests with Audyssey. Seemed overkill for a 2.1 setup and I wasn't sure where to position the mic for the last two tests as my sofa is up against a wall. Hence, I sited it near to where it was positioned for test #2 & #3. The distance readings look accurate, but is there any other (over-) processing Audyssey may now be doing and I would benefit from re-running setup with only 3 tests?
My 602's are S3's (typo in the opening post). I didn't think I'd ever sell the S3's, merely add to them or move them into another room with a fresh surround setup. Do you think speaker technology has moved on sufficiently to warrant the sale of S3's (in a couple of years)?
I set everything up before seeing your reply. I've set the cross-over to 80hz, although I may play around with lowering this to 60hz. However, I ran the full 8 tests with Audyssey. Seemed overkill for a 2.1 setup and I wasn't sure where to position the mic for the last two tests as my sofa is up against a wall. Hence, I sited it near to where it was positioned for test #2 & #3. The distance readings look accurate, but is there any other (over-) processing Audyssey may now be doing and I would benefit from re-running setup with only 3 tests?
My 602's are S3's (typo in the opening post). I didn't think I'd ever sell the S3's, merely add to them or move them into another room with a fresh surround setup. Do you think speaker technology has moved on sufficiently to warrant the sale of S3's (in a couple of years)?
EViS said:
VERY impressed with the X3500, what an upgrade!
I set everything up before seeing your reply. I've set the cross-over to 80hz, although I may play around with lowering this to 60hz. However, I ran the full 8 tests with Audyssey. Seemed overkill for a 2.1 setup and I wasn't sure where to position the mic for the last two tests as my sofa is up against a wall. Hence, I sited it near to where it was positioned for test #2 & #3. The distance readings look accurate, but is there any other (over-) processing Audyssey may now be doing and I would benefit from re-running setup with only 3 tests?
My 602's are S3's (typo in the opening post). I didn't think I'd ever sell the S3's, merely add to them or move them into another room with a fresh surround setup. Do you think speaker technology has moved on sufficiently to warrant the sale of S3's (in a couple of years)?
Glad to hear you like it I set everything up before seeing your reply. I've set the cross-over to 80hz, although I may play around with lowering this to 60hz. However, I ran the full 8 tests with Audyssey. Seemed overkill for a 2.1 setup and I wasn't sure where to position the mic for the last two tests as my sofa is up against a wall. Hence, I sited it near to where it was positioned for test #2 & #3. The distance readings look accurate, but is there any other (over-) processing Audyssey may now be doing and I would benefit from re-running setup with only 3 tests?
My 602's are S3's (typo in the opening post). I didn't think I'd ever sell the S3's, merely add to them or move them into another room with a fresh surround setup. Do you think speaker technology has moved on sufficiently to warrant the sale of S3's (in a couple of years)?
I’d use it a few days, then run it again in just three locations. Not a big deal though.
Just make sure the sub settings are as above.
The 602S3 are very good. They were £300 which seems crazy today!
As they are quite large they offer a pretty big soundstage for the footprint / price.
To replace them now, you’d need to spend quite a bit more to do everything better and offer the same large sound.
At the moment, if you wanted to upgrade, I’d suggest Monitor Audio Silver 100, KEF R3, or B&W 706. (£650 - £1000 - 1100)
All very good, but slightly different. This’ll change in a couple of years though I’m sure.
In laws recently stayed for a week, and watched quite a bit of Netflix on our old 50inch plasma that was hooked up to a 10 year old Denon AVR-4310 matched with some even older Mordaunt short 502s
I learnt recently after that week my mother in law has been moaning their own TV is too small, and watching drama on Netflix just wasn't as good as it was in our house.....
They have a 46inch newish Samsung LCD and sound bar, and actually sit closer to their TV than the setup they used in our house.
I suspect the difference my mother in law is complaining about isnt the TV at all but the difference in sound quality an decade old 5.1 setup can deliver compared to a modern sound bar.
I learnt recently after that week my mother in law has been moaning their own TV is too small, and watching drama on Netflix just wasn't as good as it was in our house.....
They have a 46inch newish Samsung LCD and sound bar, and actually sit closer to their TV than the setup they used in our house.
I suspect the difference my mother in law is complaining about isnt the TV at all but the difference in sound quality an decade old 5.1 setup can deliver compared to a modern sound bar.
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