Adding high quality music streaming to existing HiFi?
Discussion
Hi folks,
Well after splurging on a new (to me) pair of Kef Reference 205/2 speakers I'm now looking to move in to this decade (or even century!) by adding music streaming to my system.
Well let me qualify that - I'm not sure what I actually want to do as I am clueless about it all.
Simply put I'd like to be able play UHD music (FLAC etc?) files through my stereo system. The best I have just now is CD quality and I feel the amps and speakers deserve better. Plus I'm not planning to add massively to my CD collection.
My system is as follows:
Musical Fidelity A308 CD player
Musical Fidelity A 308 Pre and Power amps
Kef Reference 205/2 speakers
Yamaha RX-V3067 AV receiver - with front stereo signals fed to A308 power amp via Yamaha pre-outs
Xbox One - network enabled and connected to the Yamaha AV Receiver
Panasonic Bluray player of some sort
Ideally I'd love to feed the UHD music direct to my Musical Fidelity amps rather than feed it in to the Yamaha first as I expect I will get better results.
At the moment I use the Yamaha pre-outs to send the front stereo signal to my A308 Power amp when watching movies which is fine. My concern is that I'd rather not use the Yamaha pre amp instead of the Musical Fidelity pre amp for stereo music. After all the A308 dedicated Pre Amp ought to be a damn sight better then the Yamaha. Thoughts on this?
At the moment I can see 2 fairly straight forward options using the Yamaha as the Pre Amp:
1). I could connect my Yamaha amp to my home network using a wifi adaptor and stream files direct to this amp from my laptop - and then output the stereo signal from the Yamaha amp to my A308 power amp to drive the Kefs.
2). I assume there is also a way to use the Xbox One for this. Was considering Amazon Music HD as a streaming / download service so maybe I could download the Amazon Music App to the Xbox and do it this way? Still means I have to feed stereo signals via the Yamaha rather than the MF amps I think.
However is there a way I could run the UHD files in to my MF Pre and Power setup without spending vast wedges of cash on a high end music streamer?
I don't really want to drop another grand + on a streamer right now as well as sign up to a monthly subscription for an UHD streaming / download service.
If I can get cracking sound quality using my existing kit that would be great - but getting rubbish sound quality due to compromises in set up would be pointless.
For what it is worth the MF / Kef set up is sounding pretty damn special even with CDs just now so I'm after something better than this, as opposed to just more convenient (hence the desire for UHD file access).
Totally clueless about all of this so be gentle!
Thanks in advance
TD
Well after splurging on a new (to me) pair of Kef Reference 205/2 speakers I'm now looking to move in to this decade (or even century!) by adding music streaming to my system.
Well let me qualify that - I'm not sure what I actually want to do as I am clueless about it all.
Simply put I'd like to be able play UHD music (FLAC etc?) files through my stereo system. The best I have just now is CD quality and I feel the amps and speakers deserve better. Plus I'm not planning to add massively to my CD collection.
My system is as follows:
Musical Fidelity A308 CD player
Musical Fidelity A 308 Pre and Power amps
Kef Reference 205/2 speakers
Yamaha RX-V3067 AV receiver - with front stereo signals fed to A308 power amp via Yamaha pre-outs
Xbox One - network enabled and connected to the Yamaha AV Receiver
Panasonic Bluray player of some sort
Ideally I'd love to feed the UHD music direct to my Musical Fidelity amps rather than feed it in to the Yamaha first as I expect I will get better results.
At the moment I use the Yamaha pre-outs to send the front stereo signal to my A308 Power amp when watching movies which is fine. My concern is that I'd rather not use the Yamaha pre amp instead of the Musical Fidelity pre amp for stereo music. After all the A308 dedicated Pre Amp ought to be a damn sight better then the Yamaha. Thoughts on this?
At the moment I can see 2 fairly straight forward options using the Yamaha as the Pre Amp:
1). I could connect my Yamaha amp to my home network using a wifi adaptor and stream files direct to this amp from my laptop - and then output the stereo signal from the Yamaha amp to my A308 power amp to drive the Kefs.
2). I assume there is also a way to use the Xbox One for this. Was considering Amazon Music HD as a streaming / download service so maybe I could download the Amazon Music App to the Xbox and do it this way? Still means I have to feed stereo signals via the Yamaha rather than the MF amps I think.
However is there a way I could run the UHD files in to my MF Pre and Power setup without spending vast wedges of cash on a high end music streamer?
I don't really want to drop another grand + on a streamer right now as well as sign up to a monthly subscription for an UHD streaming / download service.
If I can get cracking sound quality using my existing kit that would be great - but getting rubbish sound quality due to compromises in set up would be pointless.
For what it is worth the MF / Kef set up is sounding pretty damn special even with CDs just now so I'm after something better than this, as opposed to just more convenient (hence the desire for UHD file access).
Totally clueless about all of this so be gentle!
Thanks in advance
TD
A quick couple of points from someone who did exactly this to my own 308 system some time ago.
The 308 pre is on a different level for 2-channel audio compared to just about every av amp/processor out there - obviously I haven’t listened to them all but I’ve gone through stuff from Marantz (av 8801), Krell (HTS) and various Yamaha, Denon and Sony models and none have matched the 308 pre (although the Krell came close).
So, if quality is your main concern I’d look for a separate streamer/renderer and add the analogue outputs to a spare input on the MF pre.
I know you’ve already invested quite a sum so my recommendation is to use something like a music cast from google or a cheap streamer until you save for a decent on-box solution.
UHD is a video moniker denoting 4K - HD or high resolution for audio.
There’s loads I could add to this discussion but I’ll keep it neat - I’m my experience a well recorded and mastered album sounds excellent whether as a CD, CD quality FLAC or hi-res download or stream. Basically, upping sampling frequencies and bit depth doesn’t really add too much. I have access to Tidal Masters and a lot of DSD rips and 192/24 downloads on a NAS drive and there’s not a great deal of difference.
Most of my listening is CD rips from NAS or Tidal streamer at 44/16.
The 308 pre is on a different level for 2-channel audio compared to just about every av amp/processor out there - obviously I haven’t listened to them all but I’ve gone through stuff from Marantz (av 8801), Krell (HTS) and various Yamaha, Denon and Sony models and none have matched the 308 pre (although the Krell came close).
So, if quality is your main concern I’d look for a separate streamer/renderer and add the analogue outputs to a spare input on the MF pre.
I know you’ve already invested quite a sum so my recommendation is to use something like a music cast from google or a cheap streamer until you save for a decent on-box solution.
UHD is a video moniker denoting 4K - HD or high resolution for audio.
There’s loads I could add to this discussion but I’ll keep it neat - I’m my experience a well recorded and mastered album sounds excellent whether as a CD, CD quality FLAC or hi-res download or stream. Basically, upping sampling frequencies and bit depth doesn’t really add too much. I have access to Tidal Masters and a lot of DSD rips and 192/24 downloads on a NAS drive and there’s not a great deal of difference.
Most of my listening is CD rips from NAS or Tidal streamer at 44/16.
legzr1 said:
There’s loads I could add to this discussion but I’ll keep it neat - I’m my experience a well recorded and mastered album sounds excellent whether as a CD, CD quality FLAC or hi-res download or stream. Basically, upping sampling frequencies and bit depth doesn’t really add too much. I have access to Tidal Masters and a lot of DSD rips and 192/24 downloads on a NAS drive and there’s not a great deal of difference.
Most of my listening is CD rips from NAS or Tidal streamer at 44/16.
totally agree. Most of my listening is CD rips from NAS or Tidal streamer at 44/16.
I also point out to people that as we age our hearing becomes less sensitive to higher frequencies thus having a huge sampling rate 196k ect ect is wasted on older deaf people :-) I think I can hear upto abour 15khz I'm 44.
I did one of those listening tests where you have to guess whats the highest quality recording. Got most of them wrong and my pal got more wrong.
We were using a PC with a broadcast quality soundcard via a Soundcraft mixer and broadcast quality monitoring speakers. (in other words a professional setup) So in theory better than most hifi. I guess my point is don't spent a fortune as no matter what the marketing hype is your £££ may be wasted.
To the OP
You say you have an Xbox.. go onto YouTube and look some music up and play it through your system. I'm sure you'll be happy with the quality.
Thanks for the info guys. V useful. I'm now slightly less clueless than before - but I have a long way to go yet!
So in summary if I want great sound quality as well as the convenience of streaming then I'm going to have to find a decent enough streamer / digital music player that has outputs which can go directly to a spare input on my A308 pre amp.
Got it - this makes sense and confirms what I thought re sound quality of the Yamaha vs the MF A308.
Sooo these streamers / music players then; what do I need to know before I take the plunge?
My big question is this: Most of the offerings that I can see are just a box with little or no display. So how do I actually browse, select and then play the music? Do I also need a tablet that has the associated app (say for Amazon Music) so that I can sit on my sofa and control everything from there?
Probably the dumbest question of the decade but I'm used to putting a CD in to my CD player and pressing play.
Can someone explain the process from beginning to end?
Seems that I'll need several things. A physical streamer / player connected to my Pre Amp, a subscription to a streaming / download service and lastly a way of browsing, selecting and playing my music. I have the Amazon Music app on my laptop and it is all pretty straight forward - but is this compatible with the kind of kit above?
Also, I guess there may be big differences between the various streaming services too. Can you download from all of them as well as simply stream? The Amazon Unlimited caught my eye because I already have an Amazon Prime subscription so it is a bit cheaper per month and seems to allow downloading.I have already started a free 90 trial - like an hour ago. Happily playing music on my computer but of course that's not the point - I want it through my HiFi.
I guess I'd also like to understand the pros and cons of streaming vs having the actual file downloaded on some sort of storage device or the hard drive of a streamer.
I do really like the idea of being able to randomly try different music and even having some suggestions made to me based on what I have previously listened too. I'm sure there are thousands of great tunes out there that I have yet to discover. Again, I'm not interested in anything less than CD quality here.
Am I likely to find a decent player / streamer second hand that will do a good job - or is the sector so new that every year players just get way better making the old stuff effectively obsolete?
So much to learn
So in summary if I want great sound quality as well as the convenience of streaming then I'm going to have to find a decent enough streamer / digital music player that has outputs which can go directly to a spare input on my A308 pre amp.
Got it - this makes sense and confirms what I thought re sound quality of the Yamaha vs the MF A308.
Sooo these streamers / music players then; what do I need to know before I take the plunge?
My big question is this: Most of the offerings that I can see are just a box with little or no display. So how do I actually browse, select and then play the music? Do I also need a tablet that has the associated app (say for Amazon Music) so that I can sit on my sofa and control everything from there?
Probably the dumbest question of the decade but I'm used to putting a CD in to my CD player and pressing play.
Can someone explain the process from beginning to end?
Seems that I'll need several things. A physical streamer / player connected to my Pre Amp, a subscription to a streaming / download service and lastly a way of browsing, selecting and playing my music. I have the Amazon Music app on my laptop and it is all pretty straight forward - but is this compatible with the kind of kit above?
Also, I guess there may be big differences between the various streaming services too. Can you download from all of them as well as simply stream? The Amazon Unlimited caught my eye because I already have an Amazon Prime subscription so it is a bit cheaper per month and seems to allow downloading.I have already started a free 90 trial - like an hour ago. Happily playing music on my computer but of course that's not the point - I want it through my HiFi.
I guess I'd also like to understand the pros and cons of streaming vs having the actual file downloaded on some sort of storage device or the hard drive of a streamer.
I do really like the idea of being able to randomly try different music and even having some suggestions made to me based on what I have previously listened too. I'm sure there are thousands of great tunes out there that I have yet to discover. Again, I'm not interested in anything less than CD quality here.
Am I likely to find a decent player / streamer second hand that will do a good job - or is the sector so new that every year players just get way better making the old stuff effectively obsolete?
So much to learn
You don't need to spend more than £100-150 to get a streaming solution that will handle CD quality and higher bit rate recordings perfectly well. E.g. a raspberry PI with one of the better plug-in DACs, running some open source software.
If you like to spend more money on a shinier box, there are many options from a couple of hundred to multiple thousands.
As said earlier, what really matters is mastering and the recording itself. CD at 44.1Khz is entirely sufficient for domestic playback, you won't actually be getting a better result by spending more money on "hi definition" material - in fact quite a lot of this has material been proven to be the CD master just upsampled, so it's actually a ripoff...
If you like to spend more money on a shinier box, there are many options from a couple of hundred to multiple thousands.
As said earlier, what really matters is mastering and the recording itself. CD at 44.1Khz is entirely sufficient for domestic playback, you won't actually be getting a better result by spending more money on "hi definition" material - in fact quite a lot of this has material been proven to be the CD master just upsampled, so it's actually a ripoff...
TorqueDirty said:
Thanks for the info guys. V useful. I'm now slightly less clueless than before - but I have a long way to go yet!
So in summary if I want great sound quality as well as the convenience of streaming then I'm going to have to find a decent enough streamer / digital music player that has outputs which can go directly to a spare input on my A308 pre amp.
Got it - this makes sense and confirms what I thought re sound quality of the Yamaha vs the MF A308.
Sooo these streamers / music players then; what do I need to know before I take the plunge?
My big question is this: Most of the offerings that I can see are just a box with little or no display. So how do I actually browse, select and then play the music? Do I also need a tablet that has the associated app (say for Amazon Music) so that I can sit on my sofa and control everything from there?
Probably the dumbest question of the decade but I'm used to putting a CD in to my CD player and pressing play.
Can someone explain the process from beginning to end?
Seems that I'll need several things. A physical streamer / player connected to my Pre Amp, a subscription to a streaming / download service and lastly a way of browsing, selecting and playing my music. I have the Amazon Music app on my laptop and it is all pretty straight forward - but is this compatible with the kind of kit above?
Also, I guess there may be big differences between the various streaming services too. Can you download from all of them as well as simply stream? The Amazon Unlimited caught my eye because I already have an Amazon Prime subscription so it is a bit cheaper per month and seems to allow downloading.I have already started a free 90 trial - like an hour ago. Happily playing music on my computer but of course that's not the point - I want it through my HiFi.
I guess I'd also like to understand the pros and cons of streaming vs having the actual file downloaded on some sort of storage device or the hard drive of a streamer.
I do really like the idea of being able to randomly try different music and even having some suggestions made to me based on what I have previously listened too. I'm sure there are thousands of great tunes out there that I have yet to discover. Again, I'm not interested in anything less than CD quality here.
Am I likely to find a decent player / streamer second hand that will do a good job - or is the sector so new that every year players just get way better making the old stuff effectively obsolete?
So much to learn
No such thing as a silly question....So in summary if I want great sound quality as well as the convenience of streaming then I'm going to have to find a decent enough streamer / digital music player that has outputs which can go directly to a spare input on my A308 pre amp.
Got it - this makes sense and confirms what I thought re sound quality of the Yamaha vs the MF A308.
Sooo these streamers / music players then; what do I need to know before I take the plunge?
My big question is this: Most of the offerings that I can see are just a box with little or no display. So how do I actually browse, select and then play the music? Do I also need a tablet that has the associated app (say for Amazon Music) so that I can sit on my sofa and control everything from there?
Probably the dumbest question of the decade but I'm used to putting a CD in to my CD player and pressing play.
Can someone explain the process from beginning to end?
Seems that I'll need several things. A physical streamer / player connected to my Pre Amp, a subscription to a streaming / download service and lastly a way of browsing, selecting and playing my music. I have the Amazon Music app on my laptop and it is all pretty straight forward - but is this compatible with the kind of kit above?
Also, I guess there may be big differences between the various streaming services too. Can you download from all of them as well as simply stream? The Amazon Unlimited caught my eye because I already have an Amazon Prime subscription so it is a bit cheaper per month and seems to allow downloading.I have already started a free 90 trial - like an hour ago. Happily playing music on my computer but of course that's not the point - I want it through my HiFi.
I guess I'd also like to understand the pros and cons of streaming vs having the actual file downloaded on some sort of storage device or the hard drive of a streamer.
I do really like the idea of being able to randomly try different music and even having some suggestions made to me based on what I have previously listened too. I'm sure there are thousands of great tunes out there that I have yet to discover. Again, I'm not interested in anything less than CD quality here.
Am I likely to find a decent player / streamer second hand that will do a good job - or is the sector so new that every year players just get way better making the old stuff effectively obsolete?
So much to learn
This is how i'd approach the learning curve..
Setup a Spotify account for free, It'll run on your PC/laptop.
https://www.spotify.com/uk/
Take the jack output (usually green or has a pic of a headphone) plug it into your amp. KEEP THE VOLUME LOW !!!! on the PC* You may need a jack to phono lead..
Turn hifi on select input you've plugged your pc into, on spotify search for a track and play. Job done your now playing streamed audio.
Next step start researching devices.
- you keep the volume low because the output of a PC is slightly amplified to drive a set of small speakers or headphones that don't have their own amp and thus the output can he much higher that standard line level from a Cd player
having re read your post you already have amazon music use that instead of Spotify.
The best thing to get is Tidal, Tidal on a Chromecast Audio sounds better than Spotify on really expensive kit.
I'm sure Spotify EQ their files, some of it is so bright sounding.
That Yamaha looks pretty good, I like that Burr Brown DAC in it too.
Pick up a Chromecast Audio for £20 and do the Tidal Trial. See what you think.
What I will say is, if you like it and want to step up a level look at maybe a Bluesound Node 2i or something.
The Chromecast is not great, not great at all, but it will get you into some streaming and it may still surprise you.
I'm sure Spotify EQ their files, some of it is so bright sounding.
That Yamaha looks pretty good, I like that Burr Brown DAC in it too.
Pick up a Chromecast Audio for £20 and do the Tidal Trial. See what you think.
What I will say is, if you like it and want to step up a level look at maybe a Bluesound Node 2i or something.
The Chromecast is not great, not great at all, but it will get you into some streaming and it may still surprise you.
Guys,
Thanks again. I do actually have the right cable to connect my laptop to my amp - somewhere! I'll dig around, find it, plug in the laptop and play some tunes via Amazon Music.
Great suggestion as this will answer many questions. If I select an album that I have on CD I will very quickly be able to determine if I can tell the difference between my rather expensive (in the day) Cd player and my cheapo laptop playing what I assume will be the same series of digital ones and twos.
If I can't tell the difference then I'll either celebrate because I have a simple solution, or feel like a prat for getting all "Audiophile" about stuff that it turns out I can't hear! I'm not sure which outcome I want but I'll report back with a full honesty which ever way it goes.
Watch this space as I'm now off to rummage in my massive box of assorted redundant cables.
My bet is that I will be able to tell the difference between the cheap laptop DAC and the one in my £2k DC player - but I seldom win when I bet so we shall see.
TD
Thanks again. I do actually have the right cable to connect my laptop to my amp - somewhere! I'll dig around, find it, plug in the laptop and play some tunes via Amazon Music.
Great suggestion as this will answer many questions. If I select an album that I have on CD I will very quickly be able to determine if I can tell the difference between my rather expensive (in the day) Cd player and my cheapo laptop playing what I assume will be the same series of digital ones and twos.
If I can't tell the difference then I'll either celebrate because I have a simple solution, or feel like a prat for getting all "Audiophile" about stuff that it turns out I can't hear! I'm not sure which outcome I want but I'll report back with a full honesty which ever way it goes.
Watch this space as I'm now off to rummage in my massive box of assorted redundant cables.
My bet is that I will be able to tell the difference between the cheap laptop DAC and the one in my £2k DC player - but I seldom win when I bet so we shall see.
TD
OK, quick trial completed.
Cheap HP laptop connected to A308 Pre Amp using 3.5mm headphone jack to RCA Audio Cable (a £20 cable to be fair, not the £100 cables I use to connect the CD to the amp) .
Same song played on A308 CD and via Amazon Music (HD quality from Amazon) in to the same A308 Pre and Power amp setup.
Result?
No comparison.
Musical Fidelity A308 CD is in a different league
Don't get me wrong the Amazon streaming approach provided pretty good results (once I had worked out that you needed the use the app rather than the web page to get HD quality) BUT by comparison it was as if the whole sound stage had been compressed in every dimension. Far less punch, less detail, limited imaging and everything dulled as if played through a blanket. Or maybe like trying to look at a detailed picture wearing the wrong prescription glasses.
In summary a very good tool for trying new stuff and deciding what CDs to buy, but in no way any sort of substitute for my current CD source.
In all honesty if you did not have the ability to do a side by side comparison (and you cranked the volume up) you might be fairly happy - maybe!
So I think I need to go and try out a few dedicated HiFi media players to see how far they close the gap.
More research (and saving) required.
TD
Cheap HP laptop connected to A308 Pre Amp using 3.5mm headphone jack to RCA Audio Cable (a £20 cable to be fair, not the £100 cables I use to connect the CD to the amp) .
Same song played on A308 CD and via Amazon Music (HD quality from Amazon) in to the same A308 Pre and Power amp setup.
Result?
No comparison.
Musical Fidelity A308 CD is in a different league
Don't get me wrong the Amazon streaming approach provided pretty good results (once I had worked out that you needed the use the app rather than the web page to get HD quality) BUT by comparison it was as if the whole sound stage had been compressed in every dimension. Far less punch, less detail, limited imaging and everything dulled as if played through a blanket. Or maybe like trying to look at a detailed picture wearing the wrong prescription glasses.
In summary a very good tool for trying new stuff and deciding what CDs to buy, but in no way any sort of substitute for my current CD source.
In all honesty if you did not have the ability to do a side by side comparison (and you cranked the volume up) you might be fairly happy - maybe!
So I think I need to go and try out a few dedicated HiFi media players to see how far they close the gap.
More research (and saving) required.
TD
Hardly a fair comparison - a still very good CD player -vs- the £3 DAC and output circuitry in a laptop - I’d have been amazed (and disappointed) if you’d have said you couldn’t detect a difference!
Personally, I didn’t want to faff around with multiple little boxes, outboard PSUs, DACs etc so I’ll tell you what worked for me after trying and comparing a few streamers with on-board DACs to a couple of CD players I had to hand (including the 308 CD player, a Krell 300CD and a Marantz 17 ki sig.).
A Marantz 7004(?) didn’t cut it, a little bland sounding similar to their midrange CD players and easily bettered soundwise by any of the CD players I mentioned above.
A Pioneer N50 was next - much better sound (to my ears) than the Marantz but plagued by issues with firmware and a truly crap control app. but getting close to the MF and 17KI if still a way off the Krell.
Next was a Cambridge Audio SM6 - this was a great sounding streamer, limited to 96/24 hi-res and not the best app in the early days. Probably the most rounded and balanced sounding streamer so far.
To be fair, I was comparing £500 streamers to £1500-£3000 CD players purely on sound quality. None of the above streamers matched the MF or Krell.
A few months passed when I had a brief listen to Cambridge Audios (then new) 851N streamer. Ah, that was more like it - fluid mids of the MF, shimmering top end of the Marantz and excellent bass of the Krell. Excellent onboard DACs, every input you could ask for and a fairly decent app with Tidal and Spotify integration.
I added an iPad for control , subscribed to Tidal and plugged it into my router to access the thousands of albums I’d ripped and downloaded to the NAS and listened, made playlists, listened to playlists from friends and me,bees of hifi forums, discovered LOADS of new music, bands, compilations etc etc.
Within three weeks of buying the CA 851N I’d sold the MF and Krell. I kept the Marantz to use as a transport into the 851N (used as a DAC) and I think I’ve used it three times in as many years - I honestly don’t know if it’s still plugged in!
They’re not cheap (I picked mine up for around £900 - currently they’re £1400 new but do come up on the used market now and again). But, it’s the cheapest component in my system and by some margin and I consider it a bargain for the sound and features it gives. Since getting it I’ve listened to Lumin, Auralic and a Naim (the model escapes me at the minute) - all significantly more expensive, none a significant step up in sound in my opinion.
Try and get a listen to one of you can and don’t just take my word for it.
For around half the price but very close in sound they (CA) also do the CXN V2 Streamer - another excellent sounding one box solution and might make a good ‘tide you over’ machine.
Good luck - once you get into it there’s no going back
Personally, I didn’t want to faff around with multiple little boxes, outboard PSUs, DACs etc so I’ll tell you what worked for me after trying and comparing a few streamers with on-board DACs to a couple of CD players I had to hand (including the 308 CD player, a Krell 300CD and a Marantz 17 ki sig.).
A Marantz 7004(?) didn’t cut it, a little bland sounding similar to their midrange CD players and easily bettered soundwise by any of the CD players I mentioned above.
A Pioneer N50 was next - much better sound (to my ears) than the Marantz but plagued by issues with firmware and a truly crap control app. but getting close to the MF and 17KI if still a way off the Krell.
Next was a Cambridge Audio SM6 - this was a great sounding streamer, limited to 96/24 hi-res and not the best app in the early days. Probably the most rounded and balanced sounding streamer so far.
To be fair, I was comparing £500 streamers to £1500-£3000 CD players purely on sound quality. None of the above streamers matched the MF or Krell.
A few months passed when I had a brief listen to Cambridge Audios (then new) 851N streamer. Ah, that was more like it - fluid mids of the MF, shimmering top end of the Marantz and excellent bass of the Krell. Excellent onboard DACs, every input you could ask for and a fairly decent app with Tidal and Spotify integration.
I added an iPad for control , subscribed to Tidal and plugged it into my router to access the thousands of albums I’d ripped and downloaded to the NAS and listened, made playlists, listened to playlists from friends and me,bees of hifi forums, discovered LOADS of new music, bands, compilations etc etc.
Within three weeks of buying the CA 851N I’d sold the MF and Krell. I kept the Marantz to use as a transport into the 851N (used as a DAC) and I think I’ve used it three times in as many years - I honestly don’t know if it’s still plugged in!
They’re not cheap (I picked mine up for around £900 - currently they’re £1400 new but do come up on the used market now and again). But, it’s the cheapest component in my system and by some margin and I consider it a bargain for the sound and features it gives. Since getting it I’ve listened to Lumin, Auralic and a Naim (the model escapes me at the minute) - all significantly more expensive, none a significant step up in sound in my opinion.
Try and get a listen to one of you can and don’t just take my word for it.
For around half the price but very close in sound they (CA) also do the CXN V2 Streamer - another excellent sounding one box solution and might make a good ‘tide you over’ machine.
Good luck - once you get into it there’s no going back
legzr1, thanks for the great input and suggestions.
I'm very relieved that there was night and day between the crap laptop and the A308, but given the inevitable crapness of the laptop DAC I was impressed that the sound was even remotely similar. Clearly there is potential.
Gives me great hope that a decent streamer will provide CD equivalent quality.
I had already been looking at the CA streamers because of the great reviews. The fact that you ditched your high-end CD players shortly after getting the CA gives me confidence that an investment here would not be wasted money.
That said the whole IT side of things does worry me a bit - partly because I'm a bit of a Luddite, but also because I'd have to make a wireless connection from some distance away - big house, no wired connection points available. I guess I could get a wifi booster if need be.
I see some poor reviews about the CA app but I guess I'll have to try it our for myself and see.
The ability to simply select from millions of songs instantly, rather than speculatively buying CDs to see if I like the albums, is deeply attractive.
Will report back once I have tried a few streamers out. Also off to find out what a NAS is!
TD
I'm very relieved that there was night and day between the crap laptop and the A308, but given the inevitable crapness of the laptop DAC I was impressed that the sound was even remotely similar. Clearly there is potential.
Gives me great hope that a decent streamer will provide CD equivalent quality.
I had already been looking at the CA streamers because of the great reviews. The fact that you ditched your high-end CD players shortly after getting the CA gives me confidence that an investment here would not be wasted money.
That said the whole IT side of things does worry me a bit - partly because I'm a bit of a Luddite, but also because I'd have to make a wireless connection from some distance away - big house, no wired connection points available. I guess I could get a wifi booster if need be.
I see some poor reviews about the CA app but I guess I'll have to try it our for myself and see.
The ability to simply select from millions of songs instantly, rather than speculatively buying CDs to see if I like the albums, is deeply attractive.
Will report back once I have tried a few streamers out. Also off to find out what a NAS is!
TD
A true CD (ie on thats been pressed from a master) from a recording studio and not a ripped Cd will always sound better.
Best test would be to find an original cd (bought from HMV or the likes in the 90s before this MP3 lark)
Choose a track and play it at the exact time from an amazon source.
In my opinion the CD will always win hands down.
All the modern compression AAC/MP3 and so on can (in my opinion) never sound as good as a CD that's made from the original source.
My view for you is to find a device your happy with and go with it, be realistic with the sound quality and ask yourself do I really listen to the audio in such an intense way that justifies spending ££££££
I worked with a producer many years ago who was sent an MP3 file (I was a broadcast engineer for a large media organisation) He new that MP3's were not permitted for broadcast as the quality was deemed too low. Said producer then converted the file to .wav in Adobe Audition and said there you go its a wav now. I was suppressed at how many staff believed that this restored a MP3 back to original .wav quality. The point being just because something states .WAV or high bit rate doesn't mean it actually is.
As we use to say put crap in you get crap out no matter how good the tech is.
My current setup at home is an old iphone 4s on a dock plugged into an amp. It's good enough as I know the files that are uploaded are from a known good source to start with.
Now if I play a CD/DAT its a world of difference.
Best test would be to find an original cd (bought from HMV or the likes in the 90s before this MP3 lark)
Choose a track and play it at the exact time from an amazon source.
In my opinion the CD will always win hands down.
All the modern compression AAC/MP3 and so on can (in my opinion) never sound as good as a CD that's made from the original source.
My view for you is to find a device your happy with and go with it, be realistic with the sound quality and ask yourself do I really listen to the audio in such an intense way that justifies spending ££££££
I worked with a producer many years ago who was sent an MP3 file (I was a broadcast engineer for a large media organisation) He new that MP3's were not permitted for broadcast as the quality was deemed too low. Said producer then converted the file to .wav in Adobe Audition and said there you go its a wav now. I was suppressed at how many staff believed that this restored a MP3 back to original .wav quality. The point being just because something states .WAV or high bit rate doesn't mean it actually is.
As we use to say put crap in you get crap out no matter how good the tech is.
My current setup at home is an old iphone 4s on a dock plugged into an amp. It's good enough as I know the files that are uploaded are from a known good source to start with.
Now if I play a CD/DAT its a world of difference.
In my experience, a CD ripped to FLAC or FLAC streamed/downloaded are identical to the original CD in both sound and digital content. They’re lossless. The same information ina smaller package.
AAC, Vog Orbis, MP3 etc are lossy. Information is lost once converted and can never be retrieved. Now, whether a listener can hear (or really cares) is a different subject.
Something I was going to mention earlier in this thread was to do with comparing CD in disc format to the ‘same’ album streamed from the likes of Tidal in FLAC format - to make a fair comparison you have to make sure you’re listenimg to the same thing. Companies such as Tidal are dependant on the record companies supplying the secure files and most of these companies supply the latest version of a given track. This isn’t necessarily the same file and there’s a real chance you’re comapring a well mastered original CD to a ‘remastered’ version supplied by the content holder which has been brick-walled and turned up to 11 on the mixing desk.
You can thank the loudness wars for this
AAC, Vog Orbis, MP3 etc are lossy. Information is lost once converted and can never be retrieved. Now, whether a listener can hear (or really cares) is a different subject.
Something I was going to mention earlier in this thread was to do with comparing CD in disc format to the ‘same’ album streamed from the likes of Tidal in FLAC format - to make a fair comparison you have to make sure you’re listenimg to the same thing. Companies such as Tidal are dependant on the record companies supplying the secure files and most of these companies supply the latest version of a given track. This isn’t necessarily the same file and there’s a real chance you’re comapring a well mastered original CD to a ‘remastered’ version supplied by the content holder which has been brick-walled and turned up to 11 on the mixing desk.
You can thank the loudness wars for this
TorqueDirty said:
legzr1, thanks for the great input and suggestions.
I'm very relieved that there was night and day between the crap laptop and the A308, but given the inevitable crapness of the laptop DAC I was impressed that the sound was even remotely similar. Clearly there is potential.
Gives me great hope that a decent streamer will provide CD equivalent quality.
I had already been looking at the CA streamers because of the great reviews. The fact that you ditched your high-end CD players shortly after getting the CA gives me confidence that an investment here would not be wasted money.
That said the whole IT side of things does worry me a bit - partly because I'm a bit of a Luddite, but also because I'd have to make a wireless connection from some distance away - big house, no wired connection points available. I guess I could get a wifi booster if need be.
I see some poor reviews about the CA app but I guess I'll have to try it our for myself and see.
The ability to simply select from millions of songs instantly, rather than speculatively buying CDs to see if I like the albums, is deeply attractive.
Will report back once I have tried a few streamers out. Also off to find out what a NAS is!
TD
If you’re prepared to pay the subscription I don’t think you need to bother too much with ripping and storing your own collection - I did it because at the time there was only MP3 available and a relatively tiny catalogue. Tidal, Quoboz and the newer offerings from Amazon etc change all that.I'm very relieved that there was night and day between the crap laptop and the A308, but given the inevitable crapness of the laptop DAC I was impressed that the sound was even remotely similar. Clearly there is potential.
Gives me great hope that a decent streamer will provide CD equivalent quality.
I had already been looking at the CA streamers because of the great reviews. The fact that you ditched your high-end CD players shortly after getting the CA gives me confidence that an investment here would not be wasted money.
That said the whole IT side of things does worry me a bit - partly because I'm a bit of a Luddite, but also because I'd have to make a wireless connection from some distance away - big house, no wired connection points available. I guess I could get a wifi booster if need be.
I see some poor reviews about the CA app but I guess I'll have to try it our for myself and see.
The ability to simply select from millions of songs instantly, rather than speculatively buying CDs to see if I like the albums, is deeply attractive.
Will report back once I have tried a few streamers out. Also off to find out what a NAS is!
TD
The CA app is relatively crap compared to some of the polished offerings recently but it works and is now very stable.
But, you don’t have to use their app - I have MconnectHD on an iPad (£6 from Apple store) and BubbleUpNp on an android tablet which is fantastic - £5 for the app and £40for a used 10” android tablet and you have one of the best remote controls available.
Either will control the CA streamer and bubble in particular is great for features, making multiple playlists etc.
As I said earlier, the days of getting up and changing a disc feel archaic. Picking a genre and letting the app select random tracks from my own library is both fun and embarrassing depending who happens to be visiting
Please don’t think I’m pushing you into an 851N by the way. There are some other great options out there (mentioned in this thread too). It’s just that I love mine, I used a similar system to you for years and I think you’d be happy with the sound.
I lost my CD player around 10 years ago I guess.
I have been playing ripped lossless now for that time and when Tidal arrived I simply use that for everything.
So far the best sound I have had from a source has been....
Tidal - Roon - Raspberry Pi - Meridian Explorer 2 Dac.
Total cost was $99 for Roon for 12 months (£400 for lifetime0 £120 for Raspberry Pi with the digital out board and iFi PSU - £100 for the Rasberry Pi Dac.
Oh, and £40 for a well shielded and constructed 3.5m to Phono cable from Audioquest. £20 one would no doubt sound the same, the just din't have stock of those at the time.
I had that up against some tough competition from Auralic Aeries, Meridian MS600, Naim NDX etc.
There was something that was just so clean sounding about the above set up, adding more expensive DACs didn't really improve things either, unless it is an obvious difference I don't bother.
You could try that with an SD card with your whole music collection on it and an app to control it all and save on the Roon subscription.
Raspberry Pi and Dac for £130 would get you up and running.
Nice thing is you can add so many endpoints to Roon as you want, another Rasberry Pi for £30, Raspberry Pi with the little class D amp for £70 into some ceiling speakers, all my old Sonos is seen etc. etc.
I have been playing ripped lossless now for that time and when Tidal arrived I simply use that for everything.
So far the best sound I have had from a source has been....
Tidal - Roon - Raspberry Pi - Meridian Explorer 2 Dac.
Total cost was $99 for Roon for 12 months (£400 for lifetime0 £120 for Raspberry Pi with the digital out board and iFi PSU - £100 for the Rasberry Pi Dac.
Oh, and £40 for a well shielded and constructed 3.5m to Phono cable from Audioquest. £20 one would no doubt sound the same, the just din't have stock of those at the time.
I had that up against some tough competition from Auralic Aeries, Meridian MS600, Naim NDX etc.
There was something that was just so clean sounding about the above set up, adding more expensive DACs didn't really improve things either, unless it is an obvious difference I don't bother.
You could try that with an SD card with your whole music collection on it and an app to control it all and save on the Roon subscription.
Raspberry Pi and Dac for £130 would get you up and running.
Nice thing is you can add so many endpoints to Roon as you want, another Rasberry Pi for £30, Raspberry Pi with the little class D amp for £70 into some ceiling speakers, all my old Sonos is seen etc. etc.
996owner said:
A true CD (ie on thats been pressed from a master) from a recording studio and not a ripped Cd will always sound better.
Is there a technical difference though? If I take a CD from my own collection and rip it with no compression, I just can't believe that I'd hear any difference at all if played through the DAC in the CD player.I've tried it with compressed files before. It's obviously really easy to detect the low bitrate MP3s, it gets a lot harder wit the better ones. I couldn't tell any difference between FLAC/ALAC files and the original CD.
I definitely agree that streaming a WAV or 'Hi-Res' file from the internet is no guarantee of quality.
kingston12 said:
996owner said:
A true CD (ie on thats been pressed from a master) from a recording studio and not a ripped Cd will always sound better.
Is there a technical difference though? If I take a CD from my own collection and rip it with no compression, I just can't believe that I'd hear any difference at all if played through the DAC in the CD player..
I guess if you took a pre published album (ie a bought one) pop it into a pc and get the properties of say track 1 and look at how big the file is, then rip the cd and look at the properties of the same track and look at the file size. If smaller its done some kind of compression.
Could I really be bothered (at this minute, nope) and it goes back to my comments that as long s your happy it doesn't matter.
Maybe when I've got the home studio set back up and have some free time I may do this. I've got access to audio test equipment just not much time.
legzr1 said:
I.
AAC, Vog Orbis, MP3 etc are lossy. Information is lost once converted and can never be retrieved. Now, whether a listener can hear (or really cares) is a different subject.
AAC, Vog Orbis, MP3 etc are lossy. Information is lost once converted and can never be retrieved. Now, whether a listener can hear (or really cares) is a different subject.
Going back to my broadcast audio engineering days. We use to insist on .wav The reason being was DAB radio. Audio once it left a recording studio could go through 9-10 different stages of digital to analogue and back to digital before a listener heard the track on their hifi.
You really could tell the difference, it was truly awful IF you knew what you were listening for.
In the broadcast studio we could listen to either studio out or off air, the difference was massive.
Did we get complaints? no because people don't lisern in such a way they care, its just background noise
So to the OP how much do you want to spent
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