BT Sport Ultimate
Discussion
Finally last week BT Sport Ultimate made it available to watch without the need for a BT set top box but Apple TV and Airplay only offer it in 4K, not 4K HDR. Xbox One S/X, 2018 & 2019 Samsung TV's along with Chromecast Ultra all offer 4K HDR. Is it possible to download the BT Sport app to Chromecast as you can for Apple TV and Xbox or is it simply (as the name suggests) a casting device to stream from your mobile device?
ps, i'm using IOS with the Chromecast if that makes any difference to downloading apps?
ps, i'm using IOS with the Chromecast if that makes any difference to downloading apps?
Kermit power said:
Is there any point to having HDR with sport? I would've thought that most of the sports likely to be screened (football, rugby, etc) are going to be lit in such a way as to render HDR irrelevant?
The BBC trials with the football were superb as was Wimbledon (HLG not HDR10 though footy was initially HDR10). I have only seen BT 1080p HDR10 as my Apple TV cannot do HDR at the frame rate BT use for 4k (ATV hardware I think). Personally I would take a 4k SDR over the 1080p HDR, I expect to see subtle bump picture quality for live (as opposed to films). Bit like when 3D was around, they had to be careful not to over egg it.Sorry OP, no help.
Zirconia said:
Kermit power said:
Is there any point to having HDR with sport? I would've thought that most of the sports likely to be screened (football, rugby, etc) are going to be lit in such a way as to render HDR irrelevant?
The BBC trials with the football were superb as was Wimbledon (HLG not HDR10 though footy was initially HDR10). I have only seen BT 1080p HDR10 as my Apple TV cannot do HDR at the frame rate BT use for 4k (ATV hardware I think). Personally I would take a 4k SDR over the 1080p HDR, I expect to see subtle bump picture quality for live (as opposed to films). Bit like when 3D was around, they had to be careful not to over egg it.I've used HDR for photography before, and whilst it's brilliant for things like cityscapes with a lot of shadow that is hiding detail you want to bring out, the one time I tried it on a rugby shot actually completely ruined the picture.
The shot was already correctly exposed for the players, and they already stood out under the floodlights against the relative darkness of the crowd in the stands, so when you then increase the dynamic range, all you're actually doing is bringing out the detail of the crowd, so the players no longer stand out as much against the background, which is pretty much the opposite of the desired effect!
Maybe HDR for video does something different to HDR for stills photography? I only got BT 4K set up yesterday on a new OLED TV, so haven't yet got round to looking at the sport!
Kermit power said:
Zirconia said:
Kermit power said:
Is there any point to having HDR with sport? I would've thought that most of the sports likely to be screened (football, rugby, etc) are going to be lit in such a way as to render HDR irrelevant?
The BBC trials with the football were superb as was Wimbledon (HLG not HDR10 though footy was initially HDR10). I have only seen BT 1080p HDR10 as my Apple TV cannot do HDR at the frame rate BT use for 4k (ATV hardware I think). Personally I would take a 4k SDR over the 1080p HDR, I expect to see subtle bump picture quality for live (as opposed to films). Bit like when 3D was around, they had to be careful not to over egg it.I've used HDR for photography before, and whilst it's brilliant for things like cityscapes with a lot of shadow that is hiding detail you want to bring out, the one time I tried it on a rugby shot actually completely ruined the picture.
The shot was already correctly exposed for the players, and they already stood out under the floodlights against the relative darkness of the crowd in the stands, so when you then increase the dynamic range, all you're actually doing is bringing out the detail of the crowd, so the players no longer stand out as much against the background, which is pretty much the opposite of the desired effect!
Maybe HDR for video does something different to HDR for stills photography? I only got BT 4K set up yesterday on a new OLED TV, so haven't yet got round to looking at the sport!
Shall ramble on.
Difficult to quantify with HDR. I understand HDR on photography is different for film? That is the HDR (whatever version) as is captured at camera and meant to be displayed on a suitable display device. For argument sake my eyes can see a wider gamut than my computer can display (it is SDR) but my TV is closer to that range (OLED also). I will see more benefit there with the TV.
Of course you are relying on the racks at the OB to correctly expose etc. and I expect they now have the HDR to contend with. However popping out a yellow correctly when it is next to a red, getting those at the right levels, I am not sure how they do it. But the subtle bump up with no bleed through and not over chroma is good. Shadows can indeed come out better which could aid the racks at the OB, as well as those awkward shifts of play from sun into the shadows but I have still yet to see it 4k.
For a film, HDR is just great, watched Aquaman via Apple TV (4k) last weekend and the colour of wotsername hair and detail was just stunning. That was HDR done well.
As an aside. BBC use HLG as it is more suited to live TV, grading on the fly and BT are using HDR 10 for some reason, I expect it is hand held devices as their main target. Dolby Vision then PQ and HDR 10+ and I think there is another Samsung version, it can get very consuming. There is even room for it is the aerial transmission version of DVB (US are trialing it now). It is still a bit of a mess on the HDR landscape.
BT does 4k very well, the rugby is superb.
Sorry OP. Apologies for the divert.
No problems with a bit of digression, it's all great information.
Last night I managed to have a look at three of the options available, AppleTV4K, Xbox One X & Google Chromecast Ultra during the Spurs game. I'm not tech savvy with why things look different on each set up but in a nutshell what I found last night was that due to AppleTV4K being unable to take on the complete 4K HDR (it's either 4k or HDR) it looked very similar to the Sky UHD. Both the Chromecast Ultra and Xbox are capable of 4K HDR and there is an improvement in detail, the only slight fly in the ointment was the occasional buffering a couple of times on the Chromecast that was not evident on the Xbox. This may be due to the Xbox having it's own built in BT Sport app as opposed to casting from my phone with the CC Ultra (others will no doubt enlighten me if that's not the case) The biggest disappointment is that non of the 3 devices are capable of Atmos yet and the sound is very disappointing. Sky UHD have made huge improvements when it come to immersion with sound for its sports and BT have a long way to catch up in that department.
For an additional £5 a month bolt on my man maths have justified it.
Yeah, ATV cannot do 50fps and HDR. Films are OK, lower frame rate.
Rumours of a new BT set top box next year (really rumour nothing defo.)
BT fudged it and went for the mobile market for my money, they tried a first here and there rather than get a good set top box going. Now behind the curve.
4K was a game changer in more ways than one and one that sticks out is HDR. You can get Atmos from the set top with 4k (?) but not through the apps, HDR with some apps but not the set top, HDR on mobiles but they push that delivery more than the set tup. HDR using the BT TV app on ATV is achieved by setting the ATV to 1080p is anyone looking in is wondering. 4k by setting to 4k SDR.
No idea on the sound, I don't have sky to compare but dolby (not atmos) should be the same. Are Sky atmos now? That might explain the difference anyhoo. Atmos vs 5.1 that is.
Also remember that BT owns the network to the BT TV set top and have more control. I am not sure what happens when they try to get it through other networks and guessing issues there are not BT, my set top never missed a beat.
Rumours of a new BT set top box next year (really rumour nothing defo.)
BT fudged it and went for the mobile market for my money, they tried a first here and there rather than get a good set top box going. Now behind the curve.
4K was a game changer in more ways than one and one that sticks out is HDR. You can get Atmos from the set top with 4k (?) but not through the apps, HDR with some apps but not the set top, HDR on mobiles but they push that delivery more than the set tup. HDR using the BT TV app on ATV is achieved by setting the ATV to 1080p is anyone looking in is wondering. 4k by setting to 4k SDR.
No idea on the sound, I don't have sky to compare but dolby (not atmos) should be the same. Are Sky atmos now? That might explain the difference anyhoo. Atmos vs 5.1 that is.
Also remember that BT owns the network to the BT TV set top and have more control. I am not sure what happens when they try to get it through other networks and guessing issues there are not BT, my set top never missed a beat.
Zirconia said:
Yeah, ATV cannot do 50fps and HDR. Films are OK, lower frame rate.
The Crown on Netflix is 4k50 Dolby Vision on the ATV. It might be that it comes from a 4k25 interlaced feed, but that would be odd.Presumably the BT Sport app is set to use an HDR stream if the ATV is set to 1080p, or non-HDR if the ATV is in 4k mode. This keeps it simple for the developers.
the prescotts said:
Both the Chromecast Ultra and Xbox are capable of 4K HDR and there is an improvement in detail, the only slight fly in the ointment was the occasional buffering a couple of times on the Chromecast that was not evident on the Xbox.
The phone isn't streaming, the CC streams directly with the phone basically telling it where to go and acting as a remote.How are you connecting the Xbox and CC? The Ultra I believe has an Ethernet connection in the power adapter although it can also use wi-fi. Being a relatively small device and most likely installed behind a TV which could be hindering the signal. Plug it in if you don't already and see how that goes.
karma mechanic said:
Zirconia said:
Yeah, ATV cannot do 50fps and HDR. Films are OK, lower frame rate.
The Crown on Netflix is 4k50 Dolby Vision on the ATV. It might be that it comes from a 4k25 interlaced feed, but that would be odd.Presumably the BT Sport app is set to use an HDR stream if the ATV is set to 1080p, or non-HDR if the ATV is in 4k mode. This keeps it simple for the developers.
I was surprised when I read a few forums claiming such with 50fps and ATV. Then went to look, found this. There are other comments dotted around as well but not many, I expect the film side of things this was never an issue and only recently this has come around.
https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT208074
Point 3.
Apple said:
In order for Apple TV 4K to automatically set your display format to HDR10 or Dolby Vision, your television must be able to display HDR10 or Dolby Vision at 60Hz (50Hz in Europe). Apple TV 4K can display these formats at 30Hz (25Hz in Europe), but you’ll need to enable Match Dynamic Range in Settings > Video and Audio > Match Content. If you aren’t sure which formats your television supports, check the user manual for your television.
The input can be a certain rate and they can output a certain rate but in the middle there is a compromise? BT are 2160p at source with Dolby (5.1 and now Atmos, Atmos BT set top only).I am not sure how Apple have set up their box. I was of the understanding that HDR10 is a static metadata file. You beam it out with the 4kSDR and a device that cannot do HDR10 just strips it off. Maybe a developer can explain the process through the ATV with an app and what the app will call back to base to get sent the right content. But yeah, set ATV to 1080p for HDR, set to 4kSDR for standard.
Anyhoo, BT help page just come across double checking stuff.
https://bt.custhelp.com/app/answers/detail/a_id/65...
JimbobVFR said:
the prescotts said:
Both the Chromecast Ultra and Xbox are capable of 4K HDR and there is an improvement in detail, the only slight fly in the ointment was the occasional buffering a couple of times on the Chromecast that was not evident on the Xbox.
The phone isn't streaming, the CC streams directly with the phone basically telling it where to go and acting as a remote.How are you connecting the Xbox and CC? The Ultra I believe has an Ethernet connection in the power adapter although it can also use wi-fi. Being a relatively small device and most likely installed behind a TV which could be hindering the signal. Plug it in if you don't already and see how that goes.
Watched the match via Chromecast last night and only experienced 3 short buffers during the 2nd half. The picture quality is very good, the only downside is when the adverts come on the John Lewis ad looked as though it was actually snowing the picture quality was such a drop from the 4K HDR
It would be good if BT found a better/easier way to identify what, where and when they are broadcasting on Ultimate. The Liverpool v Napoli game programme started at 7pm but it would not pick up the Ultimate feed however after 7.30 if you stopped casting and shut the app, when I re-opened the app and and started to cast it was now picking up Ultimate. All very confusing and certainly tested the patience.
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