Putin vs the West
Discussion
The prevarication of Western nations is also unfathomable, after the invasion of Crimea and the downing of MH17. Putin has signalled his intentions clearly at each step, but they just got ignored.
An instantaneous response from either NATO or the EU seems incredibly unlikely in the event of stuff really hitting the fan
France’s Thalys were still selling optical systems for Russian tanks, right up to the invasion. European countries just wanted cheapish energy and free-trade.
I feel certain that if Russia had taken Ukraine in a matter of days, as was their clear intent, then the West would have given Putin a very severe finger wagging. Now they just feed his propaganda machine that his assessment that the threat to Russia from the West, was right all along.
An instantaneous response from either NATO or the EU seems incredibly unlikely in the event of stuff really hitting the fan
France’s Thalys were still selling optical systems for Russian tanks, right up to the invasion. European countries just wanted cheapish energy and free-trade.
I feel certain that if Russia had taken Ukraine in a matter of days, as was their clear intent, then the West would have given Putin a very severe finger wagging. Now they just feed his propaganda machine that his assessment that the threat to Russia from the West, was right all along.
Well it is clear (based on the commentary of the first two episodes), that Putin will deploy lies and misleading comments as a diplomatic tool, in addition to being comfortable playing the fool, as he did when negotiating with Merkel and Hollande on behalf of the 'separatists'.
He is also very canny and able to undermine the West's values of freedom, by pointing to Powell's speech to the UN, Abu Ghraib and Libya ("we don't seek regime change") and usually seems to be one step ahead. It seems clear to me that he was luring the UN into a regime change by extending consent via Medvedev, whilst maintaining the narrative himself, as Prime Minister, that he didn't want to interfere in a sovereign nation's affairs. When the West went against their word and sought to overthrow Qaddafi, the "gotcha" ushered into another Presidential term on a wave, not that it was ever in any doubt.
He then went and interfered directly into Syrian affairs...
He is also very canny and able to undermine the West's values of freedom, by pointing to Powell's speech to the UN, Abu Ghraib and Libya ("we don't seek regime change") and usually seems to be one step ahead. It seems clear to me that he was luring the UN into a regime change by extending consent via Medvedev, whilst maintaining the narrative himself, as Prime Minister, that he didn't want to interfere in a sovereign nation's affairs. When the West went against their word and sought to overthrow Qaddafi, the "gotcha" ushered into another Presidential term on a wave, not that it was ever in any doubt.
He then went and interfered directly into Syrian affairs...
normalbloke said:
Did anyone see Russia 1985-1999 Traumazone on BBC 4? Crikey, an eye opener to life in Russia, but don’t watch it if you’re feeling low, it made Saving Private Ryan look like a romcom.
Yes, watched the first episode last night as a fore runner to the Putin V The West. As you say an eye opener. From the poor housing, the rising prices, the actions at Chenobyl where "scientists" were sent in to clean up with death the outcome....bolidemichael said:
I watched the first couple of episodes and they're excellent and insightful. They seem to aim to give a balanced perspective, worth a watch.
Yes, excellent first two parts.Whichever way up you hold it,
- Putin was right about Iraq and Libya, no wonder the West was so cautious over Syria.
- Trump was right about the insanity of Europe's, and in particular Germany's, complete reliance upon Russian gas.
With respect to the latter point, it is but a forecast and the UK has outperformed other forecasts for 2022. I would say that, as the Houses of Parliament and Representatives rejected intervention in Syria, possibly as a backlash to the Iran invasion and regime change, so there is unilateral consensus and seemingly amongst the plebiscite, for continuing to support Ukraine against the Russians.
Additionally, Britain's leadership in offering military aid, enabled by quick decision making - as a consequence of Brexit - they prompt others to commit their arsenal also, ensuring that Britain continues to be a driving force in world politics and not just a 'regional power' (that was a joke, Obama annoyed me too with his 'back of the queue' comment).
Additionally, Britain's leadership in offering military aid, enabled by quick decision making - as a consequence of Brexit - they prompt others to commit their arsenal also, ensuring that Britain continues to be a driving force in world politics and not just a 'regional power' (that was a joke, Obama annoyed me too with his 'back of the queue' comment).
Edited by bolidemichael on Tuesday 31st January 15:49
Super Sonic said:
normalbloke said:
Did anyone see Russia 1985-1999 Traumazone on BBC 4? Crikey, an eye opener to life in Russia, but don’t watch it if you’re feeling low, it made Saving Private Ryan look like a romcom.
Watched a bit, but had to turn over. Heartbreaking.
"...
rdjohn said:
From last nights episode it is fairly clear the Putin’s strategy is to test the West’s resolve over an issue and, when he realises there is next to none, he does what the heck he wants.
I suspect that using chemical weapons against Ukraine will be the next test.
If crossing red lines are not punished, there are no red lines.I suspect that using chemical weapons against Ukraine will be the next test.
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