Copper pipe 'crimp' vs solder?

[DaveCWK]

Hi All,

I've just had a load of plumbing work done on the heating system with copper pipe throughout.

However to join all the pipes they haven't used solder connections like I was expecting, they have used these larger copper joining pieces that have a rubber o-ring in them, and they have what looks like a large crimping machine that presses them securely to the pipe.

Because the fittings are a bit more bulky, there is more 'strain' in all the pipework too as it wasn't just soldered together where it naturally sits, but secured with this quite bulky machine that had to have access, hope that makes sense.

They've told me it's fine and just the modern way of doing things... work guaranteed etc. But i'm not convinced it's not just a time saver for them.

Am I worrying unnecessarily at having rubber seals on every single pipe join (especially those hidden) and how these might hold up in 10/20/30 years???

[Mr Pointy]

It's not a cost saving bodge as the fittings & tool are more expensive but it can save time. In theory the joints should be much more consistent & reproducible if they are done correctly but of course that doesn't mean there should be strain on the joints.

[Mike Legerwood]

It is the modern way as they say.

It's also safer to fit as there is no blow torch involved.

[DaveCWK]

Mr Pointy said:

It's not a cost saving bodge as the fittings & tool are more expensive but it can save time. In theory the joints should be much more consistent & reproducible if they are done correctly but of course that doesn't mean there should be strain on the joints.

Yeah just to expand on what i mean by strain, say for example pipe coming through a joist straight into an elbow, soldering it you'd lay it all out and it would naturally sit there in whatever position it takes, and be soldered.
With this tool they'd have to say pull on the pipe in order to get the machine in to make the joint. Then once returned it isn't where it would naturally sit. You can just tell this has happened as all the pipework isn't just sitting nicely, it's butted up against things etc, not easily wiggled about. It all feels solidly mounted even though it isn't. might make more noise?

[ARH]

If it was me I wouldn't use copper pipe at all unless I wanted it visible like on a radiator tail. It would always be JG speedfit for me, been using it for 20 odd years with no issues, industrial machines as well as my own house.

[EastMidsEng]

DaveCWK said:

Hi All,

I've just had a load of plumbing work done on the heating system with copper pipe throughout.

However to join all the pipes they haven't used solder connections like I was expecting, they have used these larger copper joining pieces that have a rubber o-ring in them, and they have what looks like a large crimping machine that presses them securely to the pipe.

Because the fittings are a bit more bulky, there is more 'strain' in all the pipework too as it wasn't just soldered together where it naturally sits, but secured with this quite bulky machine that had to have access, hope that makes sense.

They've told me it's fine and just the modern way of doing things... work guaranteed etc. But i'm not convinced it's not just a time saver for them.

Am I worrying unnecessarily at having rubber seals on every single pipe join (especially those hidden) and how these might hold up in 10/20/30 years???

Very standard way to do things, its called press fit. Lots of "new school" and now "old school" plumbers are using it, as long as they have used a recognised, high quality brand you have nothing to worry about.

[OutInTheShed]

So long as it's done right.
One issue is, if any further work needs to be done, you can't solder near an o-ring joint.

[Mr Pointy]

DaveCWK said:

Mr Pointy said:

It's not a cost saving bodge as the fittings & tool are more expensive but it can save time. In theory the joints should be much more consistent & reproducible if they are done correctly but of course that doesn't mean there should be strain on the joints.

Yeah just to expand on what i mean by strain, say for example pipe coming through a joist straight into an elbow, soldering it you'd lay it all out and it would naturally sit there in whatever position it takes, and be soldered.
With this tool they'd have to say pull on the pipe in order to get the machine in to make the joint. Then once returned it isn't where it would naturally sit. You can just tell this has happened as all the pipework isn't just sitting nicely, it's butted up against things etc, not easily wiggled about. It all feels solidly mounted even though it isn't. might make more noise?

If that's the case then yes, it should be clipped in place.

[K50 DEL]

I recently had the house I'm renovating replumbed and a new heating system installed.
I don't trust the plastic stuff so I specifically required all pipework to be done in copper, expecting nice neat soldered joints throughout.

You can imagine my disappointment when I went to site at the end of day 2 to discover that it had all been done in this "crimp" copper (which I had never heard of before)

Sadly much too late to have it all redone, but I would if I could.

[Mr Pointy]

K50 DEL said:

I recently had the house I'm renovating replumbed and a new heating system installed.
I don't trust the plastic stuff so I specifically required all pipework to be done in copper, expecting nice neat soldered joints throughout.

You can imagine my disappointment when I went to site at the end of day 2 to discover that it had all been done in this "crimp" copper (which I had never heard of before)

Sadly much too late to have it all redone, but I would if I could.

What's wrong with a crimped joint?

Given the very variable quality of copper pipe these days it's quite possible that plasitc is a better bet - you won't get pinholing in it.

[LastPoster]

Like anything, it's as good as the installer

I was recently involved in a project that has significant issues with leaks on copper after a few years of use. The crimped joints are fine, the issues are caused by the soldered joints due to an excess of flux and ineffective flushing afterwards attacking the pipe.

[Sheepshanks]

There was a member on here who did this work and he posted up some examples - they looked like works of art.

[Andeh1]

ARH said:

If it was me I wouldn't use copper pipe at all unless I wanted it visible like on a radiator tail. It would always be JG speedfit for me, been using it for 20 odd years with no issues, industrial machines as well as my own house.

Likewise! Other then the visuals, it's just better in all other regards. Ive also used it professionally, £mega expensive kit with it all inside.

[119]

Isnt it the fact that their insurance doesn’t allow them the use of blow torches anymore?

I am pretty sure on new build sites they can’t use them.

[ARH]

Andeh1 said:

ARH said:

If it was me I wouldn't use copper pipe at all unless I wanted it visible like on a radiator tail. It would always be JG speedfit for me, been using it for 20 odd years with no issues, industrial machines as well as my own house.

Likewise! Other then the visuals, it's just better in all other regards. Ive also used it professionally, £mega expensive kit with it all inside.

Yep plenty of £250k+ machines. Even reconditioned 20 year old machines using it, still no leaks or deteration.

[P2KKA]

119 said:

Isnt it the fact that their insurance doesn t allow them the use of blow torches anymore?

I am pretty sure on new build sites they can t use them.

Ive got a mate that works in commercial buildings around water systems and their company uses crimps because you don't need to go through the ball ache of a hot-work permit and the rest of the BS for using gas and solder.

[Jeremy-75qq8]

We use this stuff

https://www.bes.co.uk/riifo-multilayer-pre-insulat...

Far better than copper. Insulated. No joins anywhere.

All ends are done with an expensive crimp machine.

[Belle427]

I would be interested too in the longevity of the seals, no issue with the press fit stuff if done correctly though.
Soldering can be a real pita with wet pipes.
As suggested its normally installer error with the likes of push fit stuff that leads to failure.

[ARH]

Belle427 said:

I would be interested too in the longevity of the seals, no issue with the press fit stuff if done correctly though.
Soldering can be a real pita with wet pipes.
As suggested its normally installer error with the likes of push fit stuff that leads to failure.

As I wrote above I have reconditioned 20 year old machines that used JG speedfit, and that still had no leaks so I can only assume that most oring based systems if assembled correctly will last well in a domestic install.

[B'stard Child]

DaveCWK said:

Yeah just to expand on what i mean by strain, say for example pipe coming through a joist straight into an elbow, soldering it you'd lay it all out and it would naturally sit there in whatever position it takes, and be soldered.
With this tool they'd have to say pull on the pipe in order to get the machine in to make the joint. Then once returned it isn't where it would naturally sit. You can just tell this has happened as all the pipework isn't just sitting nicely, it's butted up against things etc, not easily wiggled about. It all feels solidly mounted even though it isn't. might make more noise?

There shouldn't be anymore strain on the pipes using pressfit. De-burr pipe, insert pipe into fitting, mark pipe at full insertion, press fitting and move on.

The O'rings are fully encapsulated in copper once pressed and the joint can't come apart (unlike a poorly soldered joint)

Europe have been using it for decades and you should get less noise as the bends are swept ratger than tight 90's with solder.