DIY Solar (Balkonkraftwerke)

[mark seeker]

I wondered if anyone has recently gone down the 'DIY Solar' route on here, I can't see to find any comments beyond the normal solar install.

It all sounds fairly simply if you combine with an Ecostream or similar (or am I missing something)

[Hoofy]

I was looking at "plug-in" solar. You still need a qualified electrician to hook it up to the mains but the install can be done by anyone especially if you're willing to leave the panels on the ground.

[Actual]

This today...

Ed Throws Trade Bodies Into Chaos Over DIY Solar!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzCAUk0RYZc

and

DIY Solar: We’re Told Never Do This… So I Did
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Na4LTD1M6nw

[SlimJim16v]

Actual said:

This today...

Thanks very interesting.

[mark seeker]

I've been reading quote a bit / there seems a be a few guys on youtube talking about.

Something like this, noting there are cheaper panels seems a pretty easy way to dip your toe into the water (even if you go UK legal and get an electrician for the final connection).

https://uk.ecoflow.com/products/stream-microinvert...

[OutInTheShed]

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/government-to-m...

That may be interesting!

If we're allowed to simply plug in 800W, it opens the floodgates for all kinds of DIY systems, provided you never get caught exporting more than 800W.

Half a million or so systems sold in Germany last year?



If you've got somewhere to hang a panel or two, you could get an 800W system for under £500. Maybe as little as £300. It's amazing how a few screws and brackets etc add up!
But unless you either use that power while the sun's out, or get well paid for exporting it, payback could be a long time.

800W of inverter plus a chunk of solar and some batteries is a different animal though.

[OutInTheShed]

mark seeker said:

I've been reading quote a bit / there seems a be a few guys on youtube talking about.

Something like this, noting there are cheaper panels seems a pretty easy way to dip your toe into the water (even if you go UK legal and get an electrician for the final connection).

https://uk.ecoflow.com/products/stream-microinvert...

You cannot 'go UK legal ' simply by getting a sparks to connect some wires.
You need MCS approval and that's a closed shop feeding trough.

[No ideas for a name]

OutInTheShed said:

You cannot 'go UK legal ' simply by getting a sparks to connect some wires.
You need MCS approval and that's a closed shop feeding trough.

Unless something has changed recently, you don't need MCS to be 'legal'.
The MCS part comes if you want to get paid for your export - in that most suppliers want that (your MCS cert) before they will pay for your imports.
I got full DNO approval, and a export MPAN also from the DNO. My energy company then accepted the existance of the MPAN and signed me up.

[mark seeker]

No ideas for a name said:

Unless something has changed recently, you don't need MCS to be 'legal'.
The MCS part comes if you want to get paid for your export - in that most suppliers want that (your MCS cert) before they will pay for your imports.
I got full DNO approval, and a export MPAN also from the DNO. My energy company then accepted the existance of the MPAN and signed me up.

This was my understanding, if you have a battery you can charge that with your DIY solar but anything that goes to the grid, isn't paid (so you may as well use it or charge batteries).

Agreed re MCS, i thought this was only required if you want to be paid to send back to the grid.

I am imagine a lot of people are already doing this, the downside will be waiting for UK Gov to approve the plug in element, by which point it'll be winter (I didn't say which winter)

[OutInTheShed]

No ideas for a name said:

Unless something has changed recently, you don't need MCS to be 'legal'.
The MCS part comes if you want to get paid for your export - in that most suppliers want that (your MCS cert) before they will pay for your imports.
I got full DNO approval, and a export MPAN also from the DNO. My energy company then accepted the existance of the MPAN and signed me up.

I think that's wrong.
You need G98 compliance to connect any generation kit to the grid.

https://dcode.org.uk/assets/250307ena-erec-g98-iss...

Section 8 requires a man with a badge to install it.
Section 9.4.5 precludes plug'n'play You need a control interface available to the DNO, even if they don't use it?

Below 800W is exempt from some things, not these.

RTFM?

[RedWhiteMonkey]

No idea on the legalities or other issues in the UK but we've (Germany) had one 500w panel hanging from a balcony on our apartment since the end of July last year. We can have 800w without any special permission, but only have actual space for a 500w panel. The unit is plugged into our mains via a normal socket on the balcony. We don't have any storage battery (maybe in the future) so it feeds in and is used (or not) in realtime.

Difficult to work out its effectiveness but I assume that on sunny enough days the fridge and other applicances are running for free, or at least running cheaper. The balcony location means we only get morning and early afternoon sun, which limits the productivity but can't be changed.

The setup cost just over 300€, but as we got 150€ back from our local council under some government incentive scheme it actual owes us 150€. The associated app says it has generated just over 236kWh of electricity overall so far, which based on our kWh price equates to just over 68€ so far. I reckon the remaining 82€ will be generated before the end of summer, after which it is making us money.

If I had the space I would have more panels. We have a seperate garden (its a German thing) on the other side of town, we have solar setup with battery storage there and can run a fridge and lighting constantly no bother.

[DonkeyApple]

Plug in panels seem ideal to cover a bit of the base load for half a day during half the year etc.

Realistically, how much of a typical U.K. house daily usage of 12kwh is a 500w system going to offset and how long will the system last before needing to be junked?

Can't help thinking that the real benefit of these will be to decapitate pedestrians as they get blown off the balconies of tower blocks and window sills of houses? At least trampolines are easier to spot incoming.

[RedWhiteMonkey]

DonkeyApple said:

Can't help thinking that the real benefit of these will be to decapitate pedestrians as they get blown off the balconies of tower blocks and window sills of houses? At least trampolines are easier to spot incoming.

As long as you get the proper kit and don't Heath Robinson it the kits for attaching them are good, or at that least the one I used is. I reckon it would take a natural disaster of a scale that would give you other things to worry about before the one on my balcony moved.

Overall viability really depends on individual circumstance. Here in Southern Germany we get plenty of sun throughout the year, I accept that possibly isn't quite the same in Rochdale!

[DonkeyApple]

RedWhiteMonkey said:

As long as you get the proper kit and don't Heath Robinson it the kits for attaching them are good, or at that least the one I used is. I reckon it would take a natural disaster of a scale that would give you other things to worry about before the one on my balcony moved.

Overall viability really depends on individual circumstance. Here in Southern Germany we get plenty of sun throughout the year, I accept that possibly isn't quite the same in Rochdale!

Yup, that's my point. Proper installation.

But what's most important is that someone can't Grenfell their block with these. If it's possible then someone will do it.

[No ideas for a name]

OutInTheShed said:

I think that's wrong.
You need G98 compliance to connect any generation kit to the grid.

https://dcode.org.uk/assets/250307ena-erec-g98-iss...

Section 8 requires a man with a badge to install it.
Section 9.4.5 precludes plug'n'play You need a control interface available to the DNO, even if they don't use it?

Below 800W is exempt from some things, not these.

RTFM?

I don't read that as needing MCS. But, I don't mean to imply that the average, non-electrical, man-in-the-street can just get on and do it.
I actually went for G99 as I didn't want the export limit, I followed the procedure for application, and post-commisioning notification.
DNO (National Grid) were quite happy, and issued the paperwork... and then went on to issue me an export MPAN.

A lot of the complexity goes away if the equipment being installed is already certified on the ENA type test register... you just quote the approvals number. This has now been migrated to ENA Connect Direct - which I must say I haven't looked at.
The process can be a bit confusing as it seem to initially you follow the same path if you install 4kWp of panels, or are building a large scale generation plant!

[No ideas for a name]

DonkeyApple said:

Can't help thinking that the real benefit of these will be to decapitate pedestrians as they get blown off the balconies of tower blocks and window sills of houses? At least trampolines are easier to spot incoming.

That would be my main worry. There are some serious forces involved in holding panels against the wind. Try going up a ladder, holding just one panel in a light breeze. Also, you can't (in the UK) just strap them on to a balcony.. they obviously need to point the right way. I am assuming the German installs are effectively ground mounted, but placed on a balcony - which sounds fine.

[mark seeker]

DonkeyApple said:

Plug in panels seem ideal to cover a bit of the base load for half a day during half the year etc.

Realistically, how much of a typical U.K. house daily usage of 12kwh is a 500w system going to offset and how long will the system last before needing to be junked?

Can't help thinking that the real benefit of these will be to decapitate pedestrians as they get blown off the balconies of tower blocks and window sills of houses? At least trampolines are easier to spot incoming.

To my thinking, if you're going for 800w of panels, it it probably going to take most of the load of most households, i think it would ours during the day. If you can top up a battery for what you're not using then all well and good.

It opens doors to people not wanting to / able to spend £5k on panels on their roof, although there may well be a few decapitated pedestrians along the way....although that does reduce the burden on the electricity we need as a country so....

[OutInTheShed]

DonkeyApple said:

Plug in panels seem ideal to cover a bit of the base load for half a day during half the year etc.

Realistically, how much of a typical U.K. house daily usage of 12kwh is a 500w system going to offset and how long will the system last before needing to be junked?

Can't help thinking that the real benefit of these will be to decapitate pedestrians as they get blown off the balconies of tower blocks and window sills of houses? At least trampolines are easier to spot incoming.

Our day time load is pretty low a big % of the time.
Fridge and freezer cut in and out with a 10% duty cycle?
Wifi is a few watts.
Other tech a few tens at most?
Some of the year, I run a dehumidifier in the workshop.

For us, a lot would get exported.
Different if you use an immersion heater perhaps?


I have a 100W panel for my boat. I take it down for big winds!

[cml24]

No ideas for a name said:

OutInTheShed said:

I think that's wrong.
You need G98 compliance to connect any generation kit to the grid.

https://dcode.org.uk/assets/250307ena-erec-g98-iss...

Section 8 requires a man with a badge to install it.
Section 9.4.5 precludes plug'n'play You need a control interface available to the DNO, even if they don't use it?

Below 800W is exempt from some things, not these.

RTFM?

I don't read that as needing MCS. But, I don't mean to imply that the average, non-electrical, man-in-the-street can just get on and do it.
I actually went for G99 as I didn't want the export limit, I followed the procedure for application, and post-commisioning notification.
DNO (National Grid) were quite happy, and issued the paperwork... and then went on to issue me an export MPAN.

A lot of the complexity goes away if the equipment being installed is already certified on the ENA type test register... you just quote the approvals number. This has now been migrated to ENA Connect Direct - which I must say I haven't looked at.
The process can be a bit confusing as it seem to initially you follow the same path if you install 4kWp of panels, or are building a large scale generation plant!

I read that (especially section 8) that a plug and play system could meet these requirements and be DIY-able.

If the manufacture of a plug and play system clearly states you just plug it in, what is stopping a normal member of the public being suitably trained and competent to plug in and switch on? Yes, there is no training records, no C&G qualifications, no membership of any specific groups. But I think it could be argued those aren't required.

I would love to see these systems available. I have a garage roof i would happily install two panels on and place a battery in the garage. I am in the 'we may live in this house less than 5 years' camp, so can't justify a full install.

[No ideas for a name]

cml24 said:

I read that (especially section 8) that a plug and play system could meet these requirements and be DIY-able.

If the manufacture of a plug and play system clearly states you just plug it in, what is stopping a normal member of the public being suitably trained and competent to plug in and switch on? Yes, there is no training records, no C&G qualifications, no membership of any specific groups. But I think it could be argued those aren't required.

I would love to see these systems available. I have a garage roof i would happily install two panels on and place a battery in the garage. I am in the 'we may live in this house less than 5 years' camp, so can't justify a full install.

For clarity, I think that if such a system is approved and then 'on the list', then surely anyone who can plug any device in to the mains is then 'qualified' to make that connection - as that is all it is.

G98 and G99 process really is targetted at 'trade' at present and the average punter isn't even going to know what the boxes to be filled in mean.

Part of the government approving the devices, would probably include changing the requirements... G98-lite or no DNO application required for say, systems less than 1kWp

ETA: It is imnportant to realise that the DNO approval process isn't all about safety. It is actually more to do with network capacity and planning. If 1000 houses in one area suddenly went out to BandQ and bought and plugged in their solar, it would create big issues at the substations.

Edited by No ideas for a name on Tuesday 24th March 14:14