Need a advice with 'a suddenly aggressive' puppy
Discussion
Morning all, just looking to chin wag about this one as I'm not sure... sorry for the long post but I want to give you all the info...
We now have a nice little pup. Golden retriever / poodle cross. Good breeder and saw the parents.
She is the big one!
She's a nice little dog; about 20 weeks old and been with us for about 10 weeks now.
She is turning into a nice little family pet and my wife has taken her to puppy training; she is making good progress.
Knows her name, house trained, sits on command, learning to lie down, will wait whilst you walk away, will come when called. Kids have taught her to high-five as well, much to their delight!
Walking off the lead is no problem, she sticks quite close and likes it when she goes back on the lead as she's always had a little treat.
Good with the kids, plays and allows herself to owned by them. Will allow them to take the ball / stick out of her mouth and loves to roll over and have her tummy tickled.
We also have no issue with inspecting ears, teeth, putting in eye drops, holding her paws etc – all very compliant.
With her food, we have taken away her bowl during feeding with no issue, but admittedly only did this a few times early on – have not done it for a while.
She is an expressive dog and easy to read – most if the time she it ears back tail wagging for attention. When she’s tired she slopes off into a corner or onto her crate and we know to leave her be so she can rest. She’s walked regularly and we have a big garden so there is plenty of running, ball chasing and hide and seek play.
I've noticed how she is starting to get bolder in the house and now barks at the door and actually started to low growl from the back of the kitchen when the grocery delivery man was at the front door handing crates to my wife. I took the opinion that she is learning to protect her environment and the pack against strangers - which is no bad thing? She is friendly in the park though and will happily meet new people and be petted and with other dogs she just wants to play.
But here is what has happened this morning; my youngest son mentioned that when he walked past her as she was eating in the kitchen she low growled at him. He avoided her and told us a bit later. He didn’t seem overly concerned or particularly worried, but still told us as she wasn't normally a 'growly dog'.
My wife and I had a chat about it; we both agree with the philosophy that she is the lowest ranking member of the pack and will enjoy herself by clearly knowing this. So, my wife decided that she would intervene in the ‘worst’ situation she could think of – to give the dog one of her favourite treats (which she loves) whilst she was in her crate (which is 'her' space) - this is the normal routine as we leave if she needs to be on her own for an hour or two.
My wife then then decided to take it back as she is entitled and the dog low growled whilst arching her back and her head low. This is behaviour we have not seen from her, especially towards my wife who is 'pack leader' and obeyed on command. My wife clearly said ‘no’ and hand signalled (which normally works in other circumstances) and reached in to take it again.
This time the dog snarled, bared her teeth and swung her jaws round towards her hand. My wife raised her voiced, said NO again but still lots of teeth and snarling. My wife snatched her hand back in shcok and then picked up the broom as we know she doesn’t seem to like it and put the bristle towards her in an attempt to move her away from the treat so it could be picked out without losing a finger! Anyway, the dog went for the broom with a fury that we have never seen from her! I'll be honest and say I was a bit shocked to see the fluffy kids pet turn into a wild animal. I didn't like it.
Bottom line is, the treat was not retrieved. Dog ate it whilst low growling and giving the odd snarl the whole time. So we shut the crate door and left her alone in the kitchen for 30mins. Come back and she’s dozing. Wakes up and ears back tail wagging like nothing ever happened.
This has simply not happened before and I think we are both a bit shocked and not sure what to do next - we agree though that we need to understand this more to ensure that it doesn't happen again. The dog was obviously very aggrivated as well to behave like that.
Now, I believe that lowest ranking in the pack can be ‘dominated’ by anyone – if any of us wants to take food out of her mouth, she should be compliant. That is just my view of how the family pet should behave. Any other way just suggests that there is a 1% chance of her doing something unpredictable - and I just can’t have that.
I feel that for the first time we ‘lost’ – in the dogs mind she used a technique to get the situation to go her way. And any intelligent animal learns from success so somewhere in her mind I'm worried that she has learned that there was a ‘positive outcome' from that experience.
She will be a big dog and I urgently need to reverse this learning she may have had. In days gone we would probably be told to hit the dog with a rolled up newspaper. But it's not something we want to do, have done up until now or intend to do.
Where are we going wrong on this and why did she react this way?
Potential issue in the making or harmless part of her growing up?
Should I accept that if she has been given a treat not to take it away? If so then maybe I need to change my mindset...
My wife will talk to the dog trainer / friends with dogs / the vet - I open it up to PH.
What are your thoughts on what to do next?
We now have a nice little pup. Golden retriever / poodle cross. Good breeder and saw the parents.
She is the big one!
She's a nice little dog; about 20 weeks old and been with us for about 10 weeks now.
She is turning into a nice little family pet and my wife has taken her to puppy training; she is making good progress.
Knows her name, house trained, sits on command, learning to lie down, will wait whilst you walk away, will come when called. Kids have taught her to high-five as well, much to their delight!
Walking off the lead is no problem, she sticks quite close and likes it when she goes back on the lead as she's always had a little treat.
Good with the kids, plays and allows herself to owned by them. Will allow them to take the ball / stick out of her mouth and loves to roll over and have her tummy tickled.
We also have no issue with inspecting ears, teeth, putting in eye drops, holding her paws etc – all very compliant.
With her food, we have taken away her bowl during feeding with no issue, but admittedly only did this a few times early on – have not done it for a while.
She is an expressive dog and easy to read – most if the time she it ears back tail wagging for attention. When she’s tired she slopes off into a corner or onto her crate and we know to leave her be so she can rest. She’s walked regularly and we have a big garden so there is plenty of running, ball chasing and hide and seek play.
I've noticed how she is starting to get bolder in the house and now barks at the door and actually started to low growl from the back of the kitchen when the grocery delivery man was at the front door handing crates to my wife. I took the opinion that she is learning to protect her environment and the pack against strangers - which is no bad thing? She is friendly in the park though and will happily meet new people and be petted and with other dogs she just wants to play.
But here is what has happened this morning; my youngest son mentioned that when he walked past her as she was eating in the kitchen she low growled at him. He avoided her and told us a bit later. He didn’t seem overly concerned or particularly worried, but still told us as she wasn't normally a 'growly dog'.
My wife and I had a chat about it; we both agree with the philosophy that she is the lowest ranking member of the pack and will enjoy herself by clearly knowing this. So, my wife decided that she would intervene in the ‘worst’ situation she could think of – to give the dog one of her favourite treats (which she loves) whilst she was in her crate (which is 'her' space) - this is the normal routine as we leave if she needs to be on her own for an hour or two.
My wife then then decided to take it back as she is entitled and the dog low growled whilst arching her back and her head low. This is behaviour we have not seen from her, especially towards my wife who is 'pack leader' and obeyed on command. My wife clearly said ‘no’ and hand signalled (which normally works in other circumstances) and reached in to take it again.
This time the dog snarled, bared her teeth and swung her jaws round towards her hand. My wife raised her voiced, said NO again but still lots of teeth and snarling. My wife snatched her hand back in shcok and then picked up the broom as we know she doesn’t seem to like it and put the bristle towards her in an attempt to move her away from the treat so it could be picked out without losing a finger! Anyway, the dog went for the broom with a fury that we have never seen from her! I'll be honest and say I was a bit shocked to see the fluffy kids pet turn into a wild animal. I didn't like it.
Bottom line is, the treat was not retrieved. Dog ate it whilst low growling and giving the odd snarl the whole time. So we shut the crate door and left her alone in the kitchen for 30mins. Come back and she’s dozing. Wakes up and ears back tail wagging like nothing ever happened.
This has simply not happened before and I think we are both a bit shocked and not sure what to do next - we agree though that we need to understand this more to ensure that it doesn't happen again. The dog was obviously very aggrivated as well to behave like that.
Now, I believe that lowest ranking in the pack can be ‘dominated’ by anyone – if any of us wants to take food out of her mouth, she should be compliant. That is just my view of how the family pet should behave. Any other way just suggests that there is a 1% chance of her doing something unpredictable - and I just can’t have that.
I feel that for the first time we ‘lost’ – in the dogs mind she used a technique to get the situation to go her way. And any intelligent animal learns from success so somewhere in her mind I'm worried that she has learned that there was a ‘positive outcome' from that experience.
She will be a big dog and I urgently need to reverse this learning she may have had. In days gone we would probably be told to hit the dog with a rolled up newspaper. But it's not something we want to do, have done up until now or intend to do.
Where are we going wrong on this and why did she react this way?
Potential issue in the making or harmless part of her growing up?
Should I accept that if she has been given a treat not to take it away? If so then maybe I need to change my mindset...
My wife will talk to the dog trainer / friends with dogs / the vet - I open it up to PH.
What are your thoughts on what to do next?
I'll ask my wife to reply later as we had a similar thing. We were told to remove food from our puppy while eating. We did this, but now on further advice realise perhaps we shouldn't have. She is a gentle, happy, cuddly springer who wouldn't say boo to a goose. But if you approach her while eating she will still do the low growl and protect her food from you. We can live with this as we don't have children and know not to approach her while eating. We also wouldn't feed her in the vicinity of others as know this is her behaviour.
Sorry, I know this isn't much help to you, but just wanted to let you know it isn't a unique situation. I think some trainers are now questioning the whole dominance and bottom of the pack thing too. Others may be able to help in the meantime but will check back later to see if you have the answers you need.
Sorry, I know this isn't much help to you, but just wanted to let you know it isn't a unique situation. I think some trainers are now questioning the whole dominance and bottom of the pack thing too. Others may be able to help in the meantime but will check back later to see if you have the answers you need.
It's called 'resource guarding', and is something dogs are to some extent genetically programmed to do.
There's lots of info on the net about how to train dogs not to resource guard from the off, but I think if the dog has already behaved aggressively, it may be too late for that. Get advice from a trainer.
There's lots of info on the net about how to train dogs not to resource guard from the off, but I think if the dog has already behaved aggressively, it may be too late for that. Get advice from a trainer.
A good trainer is needed, you will risk getting conflicting advice, even if we'll meaning advice, on here.
We seemed to be programmed to assume a dog should expect it's food to be taken off it for no reason only for it to be returned a very confusing message for a dog!!
I am not going to advise as I really don't know the right approach for you but I know there are solutions.
There is a chap goes by the user name nick007 on here. He is a dog behaviourist/ trainer. He doesn't post on here so much these days but he may reply to a pm. Though understandably he may be a bit reluctant to give lots of free advice as it is his business!
For now, no treats in the crate or for now no treats full stop unless they've been earned when training, ignore her when eating her dinner.
We seemed to be programmed to assume a dog should expect it's food to be taken off it for no reason only for it to be returned a very confusing message for a dog!!
I am not going to advise as I really don't know the right approach for you but I know there are solutions.
There is a chap goes by the user name nick007 on here. He is a dog behaviourist/ trainer. He doesn't post on here so much these days but he may reply to a pm. Though understandably he may be a bit reluctant to give lots of free advice as it is his business!
For now, no treats in the crate or for now no treats full stop unless they've been earned when training, ignore her when eating her dinner.
Think you need to break this back into manageable parts, if you are determined that it is an issue.
To me, I wouldn't necessarily care. I can't think of any situations where having fed the dog, I change my mind and want it back.... However.
I would feed her out of her cage. Put the treat in another space and try again. (Don't back down, even if you have to wear gloves.) Growl back.
Alternatively, put her into her space. Then hold the "treat" get into her space/bed whatever. Eat the treat yourself.
If you are going for the pack theory, then thats the way to roll.
Personally, I don't buy it. Builds the dog around a rigid hierachy which is partly fear based, doesn't work for me.
Just thinking again
From your post
Will allow them to take the ball / stick out of her mouth
This is probably a bad idea, IE reaching Train the dog to drop on command. You have a better chance of persuading the dog to release a treat, if it already used to dropping a ball or toy.
However, I know my otherwise faultless retriever, would absolutely NEVER give me the bone back if she was eating it.
Good luck !
From your post
Will allow them to take the ball / stick out of her mouth
This is probably a bad idea, IE reaching Train the dog to drop on command. You have a better chance of persuading the dog to release a treat, if it already used to dropping a ball or toy.
However, I know my otherwise faultless retriever, would absolutely NEVER give me the bone back if she was eating it.
Good luck !
Thanks all, have had a good read. Dog has been normal ever since.
Here is what we have decided:
No more treats in her crate - we initially used them to make her feel 'at home' in there, but job done so no need to continue. She will now only get treats during training.
Agree that giving a treat and asking for it back must have been odd for her - we've not really done that before, so our mistake to just presume we 'had the right'
My wife is going to work on positive training - she will give her a feed and then half way through ask her to 'drop' and stand back and 'wait'. She'll take it away and then return it with a treat in it (ie tuna or cheese or something). The idea being that she associates humans intervening with her food is a 'good thing'
Agree that during games 'taking' from her mouth when she recalls is not good enough - she needs to learn to drop and wait. We'll initially do this with a treat do she opens her mouth to drop.
It's all a learning - for the dog and us!
Here is what we have decided:
No more treats in her crate - we initially used them to make her feel 'at home' in there, but job done so no need to continue. She will now only get treats during training.
Agree that giving a treat and asking for it back must have been odd for her - we've not really done that before, so our mistake to just presume we 'had the right'
My wife is going to work on positive training - she will give her a feed and then half way through ask her to 'drop' and stand back and 'wait'. She'll take it away and then return it with a treat in it (ie tuna or cheese or something). The idea being that she associates humans intervening with her food is a 'good thing'
Agree that during games 'taking' from her mouth when she recalls is not good enough - she needs to learn to drop and wait. We'll initially do this with a treat do she opens her mouth to drop.
It's all a learning - for the dog and us!
What your dog did is resource guarding, its a natural behaviour in dogs, ( as well as people you don't want anyone nicking your dinner!)
Its normal and natural for them to gurad food in the litter so they get enough, and by taking her bowl away previously you may have actually taught your dog you are untrustworty and likely to steal her bowl, hence he growl, some dogs are just predisposed to it (spaniels , my breed in particular). Don't ever reprimand a growl, its a warning. A dog told off for growling is a dog that later in life who will not warn if pushed beyodn the limit and will be one of those dogs you hear of who " snap without warning".
The good news is you can help the situation easily but please don't bully your pup, smack it, or intimidate it as I'd hazzard the barking you described to the deliveryman is due to being unsure, not because of confidence.
I can highly reccomend a book called "MINE a pracitcal guide to resource guarding" by Jean Donaldson
The basica are that you need to ensure you only aproach the guarded object and add to the experience never take nor reprimand. So to start you add something extra yummy to the bowl as you pass, (or at least chuck it in the dogs direction if its a bad case) if everytime you approch your pup gets something good, not bad, she will look forward to your (or anyones) aproach and not dread it nor warn you.
Its normal and natural for them to gurad food in the litter so they get enough, and by taking her bowl away previously you may have actually taught your dog you are untrustworty and likely to steal her bowl, hence he growl, some dogs are just predisposed to it (spaniels , my breed in particular). Don't ever reprimand a growl, its a warning. A dog told off for growling is a dog that later in life who will not warn if pushed beyodn the limit and will be one of those dogs you hear of who " snap without warning".
The good news is you can help the situation easily but please don't bully your pup, smack it, or intimidate it as I'd hazzard the barking you described to the deliveryman is due to being unsure, not because of confidence.
I can highly reccomend a book called "MINE a pracitcal guide to resource guarding" by Jean Donaldson
The basica are that you need to ensure you only aproach the guarded object and add to the experience never take nor reprimand. So to start you add something extra yummy to the bowl as you pass, (or at least chuck it in the dogs direction if its a bad case) if everytime you approch your pup gets something good, not bad, she will look forward to your (or anyones) aproach and not dread it nor warn you.
It is and they are all sensible steps (except maybe the dinner one at least to start, initially reward who for just stopping eating on command, not remove the food)
She had an extreme response so please be cautious.
This is not the norm for all dogs, I never ever experienced food aggression with our whippet, never guarded, was able to put my hand in his bowl whilst he ate, take food directly out of his mouth etc and he had a poor start nutritionally before we had him, so he loved his food!
Hopefully you'll reduce her poor response to food and also know how to avoid conflict. It should get better
She had an extreme response so please be cautious.
This is not the norm for all dogs, I never ever experienced food aggression with our whippet, never guarded, was able to put my hand in his bowl whilst he ate, take food directly out of his mouth etc and he had a poor start nutritionally before we had him, so he loved his food!
Hopefully you'll reduce her poor response to food and also know how to avoid conflict. It should get better
Update.
After we had dinner tonight, the dog got hers. Half way through her scoff we asked to come to the other side of the kitchen. She wasn't keen but trotted over. She sat on command and instigated a high five. She was given a small treat and told to wait.
My wife then went over took away her food bowl; she did nothing, just watched whilst finishing a treat. Wife then put some chopped up bacon in her bowl, pretended to eat it and put it back down, all the time telling her to wait, which she did.
On command she was invited back to eat, which she did, bacon and all. Tail was wagging at this new found tasty dinner!
Next step will be to repeat this without giving her a treat.
So far, so good. I think...
It's a bit like when you first have kids and realise there's no bloody manual! All sorts of conflicting advice out there so I guess you just trust your own judgement and go with what feels right.
Living and learning!
Thanks for all of your advice - very much appreciated.
After we had dinner tonight, the dog got hers. Half way through her scoff we asked to come to the other side of the kitchen. She wasn't keen but trotted over. She sat on command and instigated a high five. She was given a small treat and told to wait.
My wife then went over took away her food bowl; she did nothing, just watched whilst finishing a treat. Wife then put some chopped up bacon in her bowl, pretended to eat it and put it back down, all the time telling her to wait, which she did.
On command she was invited back to eat, which she did, bacon and all. Tail was wagging at this new found tasty dinner!
Next step will be to repeat this without giving her a treat.
So far, so good. I think...
It's a bit like when you first have kids and realise there's no bloody manual! All sorts of conflicting advice out there so I guess you just trust your own judgement and go with what feels right.
Living and learning!
Thanks for all of your advice - very much appreciated.
Edited by Matt UK on Monday 10th June 22:07
Sorry but that sounds like a recipie for disaster, please buy the book and have a read. I can't force you to take the advice given, but you have kids, please don't create a problem for yourself of them in the future. If you persist with removing the bowl and worst pretending to steal (eat) food from it you WIll end up either rehoming or getting a behaviourist in. ££££ and possible heartache.
Edited by alfaclaire on Tuesday 11th June 14:35
Why put a dogs food down for them to eat and then take it away, you are either feeding the dog or not feeding it, the same with a treat, you are either giving the dog a treat or you aren't, ffs make your mind up, feed or don't feed.
and before any wise arse starts, yes we have dogs and I would put my life on the line for them, but I wouldn't try and confuse them, I would be p155ed of if I went into a restaurant bought a meal and the waiter came and took it away again.
PS Toys during play yes, Food no !!
and before any wise arse starts, yes we have dogs and I would put my life on the line for them, but I wouldn't try and confuse them, I would be p155ed of if I went into a restaurant bought a meal and the waiter came and took it away again.
PS Toys during play yes, Food no !!
As above, don't take the dog's bowl away - add a treat to it when you approach.
All the OP has achieved with his wife interrupting the dog eating and removing her bowl, is compliance with the wife's request, on this occasion.
What would happen if one of your children were to attempt the same thing?
The dog needs to associate (any) approaches to her food bowl as A Good Thing. However this means the whole family must be on board and consistent in their approach.
As the dog has already snapped once, retraining isn't something I'd attempt without professional help. Who knows what else you're doing wrong? A behaviourist will spot all of this immediately. Think of the cost as an investment in a good relationship with your dog.
All the OP has achieved with his wife interrupting the dog eating and removing her bowl, is compliance with the wife's request, on this occasion.
What would happen if one of your children were to attempt the same thing?
The dog needs to associate (any) approaches to her food bowl as A Good Thing. However this means the whole family must be on board and consistent in their approach.
As the dog has already snapped once, retraining isn't something I'd attempt without professional help. Who knows what else you're doing wrong? A behaviourist will spot all of this immediately. Think of the cost as an investment in a good relationship with your dog.
highflyer said:
Why put a dogs food down for them to eat and then take it away, you are either feeding the dog or not feeding it, the same with a treat, you are either giving the dog a treat or you aren't, ffs make your mind up, feed or don't feed.
!!
And if your dog takes something from the side or floor it shouldn't? What about finds something out on a walk that is poisonous. !!
You need to be able to take food or whatever you want from the dog.
Jasandjules said:
And if your dog takes something from the side or floor it shouldn't? What about finds something out on a walk that is poisonous.
You need to be able to take food or whatever you want from the dog.
Glad someone else has said this as I am very uncomfortable with some of the advice above.You need to be able to take food or whatever you want from the dog.
If you have kids it is inevitable (despite anyones best efforts or intentions) that at some point the dog and kid will have a food interface.
The dog (the family pet) has to absolutely know that it is not allowed to object in any way about its food being played with, moved or removed, by any family member, for any reason at any time. Bottom of the pile.
Anything else is a recipe for a bitten child.
OP, lots and lots of practice and positive reinforcement has always worked for us. It's all part of training, and for the dog all part of being part of the
This is exactly why my very first comments to the OP were to seek professional advice by the likes of Nick007.
There is already conflicting opinions being shown, this leads to confusion and is dangerous.
Have to say I never felt the need to give my dog food and take it away again as a training method and yet he was the model dog when it came to behaviour around any food and any treats.
There is already conflicting opinions being shown, this leads to confusion and is dangerous.
Have to say I never felt the need to give my dog food and take it away again as a training method and yet he was the model dog when it came to behaviour around any food and any treats.
I can't help but think you are overcomplicating the situation. I doubt 90% of dog owners do all this stuff and they are generally fine. Just treat the dog with respect, rather than as some sort of signed up member of your little dog pack and you'll probably be fine.
We never have never had any issues with our dog and we never gave it any training. We just treated her with love and respect and didn't give a jot about whether she is top or bottom in the pack. As a result she's the most obedient, nicest dog you could imagine and its not because of some fancy dog theory you learn in a book that requires odd actions to enforce some weird act of hierarchy.. its because we simply treat her with respect.
If a dog is threatening you then grow a pair and don't let it threaten you.
We never have never had any issues with our dog and we never gave it any training. We just treated her with love and respect and didn't give a jot about whether she is top or bottom in the pack. As a result she's the most obedient, nicest dog you could imagine and its not because of some fancy dog theory you learn in a book that requires odd actions to enforce some weird act of hierarchy.. its because we simply treat her with respect.
If a dog is threatening you then grow a pair and don't let it threaten you.
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