Dog training question
Discussion
So I'm finally starting another dog training class tonight and I have a question I would really appreciate some help with.
Our dog is a rescue that we have had for about 18 months now, we were told he wasn't great with other dogs but we thought we could handle it. Truth is we are struggling a bit, every walk is full of tension and I feel like I cant relax, I'm always keeping eyes open for dogs running off leads and I don't trust him enough to let him off either unless I go stupidly early in the morning.
So after a number of incidents, I am taking him to a dog trainer than we have been recommended. Only possible trouble is his methods. When we adopted our dog we were told that this chap isn't very nice and I have read a review where someone says he hit their dog with a biscuit tin lid.
My question is really, what level of physicality do you find acceptable for a dog. Obviously I'm not going to give him a boot if he doesn't sit on command but if he's barking like mad or trying to bite another dog, surely a smack on the nose (open hand) is acceptable? Or is smacking your dog on a par with smacking babies these days?
I'm sure it might be a stupid question but I've never had a dog that has needed to be disciplined in this way as they have always been good with other dogs and I feel bad when I've tapped him on the nose before so just wondered what people thought.
As a bit of background, he has been snipped but probably not as a puppy and we were told he was a Kerry blue terrier (but he could be anything really).
Thanks guys!
Our dog is a rescue that we have had for about 18 months now, we were told he wasn't great with other dogs but we thought we could handle it. Truth is we are struggling a bit, every walk is full of tension and I feel like I cant relax, I'm always keeping eyes open for dogs running off leads and I don't trust him enough to let him off either unless I go stupidly early in the morning.
So after a number of incidents, I am taking him to a dog trainer than we have been recommended. Only possible trouble is his methods. When we adopted our dog we were told that this chap isn't very nice and I have read a review where someone says he hit their dog with a biscuit tin lid.
My question is really, what level of physicality do you find acceptable for a dog. Obviously I'm not going to give him a boot if he doesn't sit on command but if he's barking like mad or trying to bite another dog, surely a smack on the nose (open hand) is acceptable? Or is smacking your dog on a par with smacking babies these days?
I'm sure it might be a stupid question but I've never had a dog that has needed to be disciplined in this way as they have always been good with other dogs and I feel bad when I've tapped him on the nose before so just wondered what people thought.
As a bit of background, he has been snipped but probably not as a puppy and we were told he was a Kerry blue terrier (but he could be anything really).
Thanks guys!
I sympathise OP. I have just reacquired my other dog that I hadn't seen for six months (he stayed with my wife, Phoebe stayed with me) and have similar problems. Mine seems to be compounded by the fact he's a Basset and they are buggers anyway!
It does make every walk stressful and I have resorted to keeping him on an extending lead. Even this is not ideal as another dog (the other day) was running wild and went for Chester and they got tangled in his lead and I couldn't seperate them!
If you are successful in your attempts, please let me know how as I'm struggling!
Best of luck and don't give up.
It does make every walk stressful and I have resorted to keeping him on an extending lead. Even this is not ideal as another dog (the other day) was running wild and went for Chester and they got tangled in his lead and I couldn't seperate them!
If you are successful in your attempts, please let me know how as I'm struggling!
Best of luck and don't give up.
Jasandjules said:
Are the other dogs where you live aggressive or friendly?
Does he have visible attack signals?
Most are reasonably friendly round here but he just doesn't get on with them. We used to let him have a sniff etc, he wouldn't growl or show any signs or aggression, and then all of a sudden just bite them. Now we just carry on walking as we know what he's like which I'm sure just makes things worse. hopefully some socialization and training of me as much as him will improve things! Does he have visible attack signals?
Xtriple129 said:
I sympathise OP. I have just reacquired my other dog that I hadn't seen for six months (he stayed with my wife, Phoebe stayed with me) and have similar problems. Mine seems to be compounded by the fact he's a Basset and they are buggers anyway!
It does make every walk stressful and I have resorted to keeping him on an extending lead. Even this is not ideal as another dog (the other day) was running wild and went for Chester and they got tangled in his lead and I couldn't seperate them!
If you are successful in your attempts, please let me know how as I'm struggling!
Best of luck and don't give up.
Thank you! Nice to know we're not alone! Sounds like we are in a very similar situation, Kerry blues are also known for having a nasty side too. I'm the same with the extendable lead, runs around on that and then I can pull him in close when we have to pass anyone else.It does make every walk stressful and I have resorted to keeping him on an extending lead. Even this is not ideal as another dog (the other day) was running wild and went for Chester and they got tangled in his lead and I couldn't seperate them!
If you are successful in your attempts, please let me know how as I'm struggling!
Best of luck and don't give up.
What are your opinions on the level of discipline? I remember the North Pole Top Gear Episode, the sled dogs start fighting and the woman in charge absolutely went for it with the blunt end of her whip. I hate the idea of smacking him but at the same time I sort of think the pack leader has to put him in his place.
His first lesson is on Wednesday so I’ll try and keep the thread up to date. He’s pretty much used to wearing a muzzle now (a stipulation of the class) except he looks like a canine equivalent of Bane!
James
I hate smacking the dogs. But, I do believe you have to be 'alpha male' in the pack. Problem is, really not sure how to achieve that without giving them a bit of a clonk when it's deserved? I'm spoilt because Phoebe is the perfect dog and a stern look is more than she ever needs, she walks off her lead pretty much perfectly to heel (I cannot manage two dogs on a lead that pull - I'm a bit of a cripple) and does as she's requested. Though, she hates the postman with a vengeance and actually bit ME the other day when I got between her and the letterbox when the postie was delivering... she got a bloody good clonk for that I must admit. First time she's ever bitten anything in six years... it'll be the last as well!
Chester has actually been better behaved (touch wood) since he got bitten the other day, actually comes back when called and I've been brave a few times over the last few days and let him off his lead... he's come back each time, so far!
Chester has actually been better behaved (touch wood) since he got bitten the other day, actually comes back when called and I've been brave a few times over the last few days and let him off his lead... he's come back each time, so far!
Ok,
If he bites, do they bite him back i.e. is it a fight or does the other dog back off? You could just muzzle him - I am not a fan of this.
In terms of punishment, how does he respond to chastisement? Does he sulk, flinch, or give not a monkeys?
One of the things I do with my rescue (nervous aggression, same thing, no visible signs he would just attack - well, some dogs, others he likes). It took me months BUT
EVERY time another dog comes within 20ft, he is made to sit. Then watch me - I have a treat, liver cake. I hold it in front of him so he stares at it.... If he looks at the other dog I give a tiny pull on the lead and he watches me again. Once the other dog has gone past if he has not reacted then he gets the treat.
If he bites, do they bite him back i.e. is it a fight or does the other dog back off? You could just muzzle him - I am not a fan of this.
In terms of punishment, how does he respond to chastisement? Does he sulk, flinch, or give not a monkeys?
One of the things I do with my rescue (nervous aggression, same thing, no visible signs he would just attack - well, some dogs, others he likes). It took me months BUT
EVERY time another dog comes within 20ft, he is made to sit. Then watch me - I have a treat, liver cake. I hold it in front of him so he stares at it.... If he looks at the other dog I give a tiny pull on the lead and he watches me again. Once the other dog has gone past if he has not reacted then he gets the treat.
Jasandjules said:
Ok,
If he bites, do they bite him back i.e. is it a fight or does the other dog back off? You could just muzzle him - I am not a fan of this.
In terms of punishment, how does he respond to chastisement? Does he sulk, flinch, or give not a monkeys?
One of the things I do with my rescue (nervous aggression, same thing, no visible signs he would just attack - well, some dogs, others he likes). It took me months BUT
EVERY time another dog comes within 20ft, he is made to sit. Then watch me - I have a treat, liver cake. I hold it in front of him so he stares at it.... If he looks at the other dog I give a tiny pull on the lead and he watches me again. Once the other dog has gone past if he has not reacted then he gets the treat.
Normally, he gives them a bite and the other dogs legs it, not had a fight yet but I could imagine it could escalate very quickly if we met the wrong dog. If he bites, do they bite him back i.e. is it a fight or does the other dog back off? You could just muzzle him - I am not a fan of this.
In terms of punishment, how does he respond to chastisement? Does he sulk, flinch, or give not a monkeys?
One of the things I do with my rescue (nervous aggression, same thing, no visible signs he would just attack - well, some dogs, others he likes). It took me months BUT
EVERY time another dog comes within 20ft, he is made to sit. Then watch me - I have a treat, liver cake. I hold it in front of him so he stares at it.... If he looks at the other dog I give a tiny pull on the lead and he watches me again. Once the other dog has gone past if he has not reacted then he gets the treat.
To be honest, I try not to hit him at all but if you shout at him, he slinks to the floor.
I’m fairly sure its nervous aggression and fear rather than anything else, more a case of getting one in first sort of thing. The training class says he has to be muzzled so a lot of walks he has it on now, just to get used to it. I’m hoping being around dogs that can’t bite him will teach him that not every dog is going to kill him. The only trouble I’ve had with sitting him down is that the other dogs come strolling over and then we’ve got nowhere to go which probably makes him more nervous, I’m hoping the training class will have a lot of work close to the other dogs!
Only scanned through, has he had his bits cut off?
I would be worried if the trainer started hitting dogs, the two trainers/I have used were all for positive reinforcement and very anti violence
I be firm with my dogs, but I have mellowed now, being more aggressive with them just antagonised my terrier more and scare my collie, I be firm now and reward good behaviour with treats, rather than heavily punishing bad behaviour.
I would be worried if the trainer started hitting dogs, the two trainers/I have used were all for positive reinforcement and very anti violence
I be firm with my dogs, but I have mellowed now, being more aggressive with them just antagonised my terrier more and scare my collie, I be firm now and reward good behaviour with treats, rather than heavily punishing bad behaviour.
Ive got a JRT with the same issues!
When i'm over the park, he's not really interested in other dogs, he likes his ball.
But, if another dog comes over to him, as long as the other dog is submissive, mines ok, but if the other dog wants to play, mine gets 'nippy'.
With mine its because he's nervous.
When he's on the lead, if he see's another dog he starts barking and going mad.
2 weeks ago I started taking him to dog training, and he does not make a sound! The trainer saw straight away that he was nervous and was brilliant with him.
I went with him for the 2nd time this week and although he was still a little bit nervous, there was a big big improvement
When he is on the lead now, and a dog comes towards us, I make him sit and kneel down next to him and stroke/talk to him, and if he doesnt bark, he gets a treat and plenty of praise, and it's working!
I really do feel like i'm making progress.
It's frustrating when you can't trust your dog, because you worry, and mine being a JRT, won't back down to any dog.
But, I would not let any trainer hit my dog, IMO, there is no need.
When i'm over the park, he's not really interested in other dogs, he likes his ball.
But, if another dog comes over to him, as long as the other dog is submissive, mines ok, but if the other dog wants to play, mine gets 'nippy'.
With mine its because he's nervous.
When he's on the lead, if he see's another dog he starts barking and going mad.
2 weeks ago I started taking him to dog training, and he does not make a sound! The trainer saw straight away that he was nervous and was brilliant with him.
I went with him for the 2nd time this week and although he was still a little bit nervous, there was a big big improvement
When he is on the lead now, and a dog comes towards us, I make him sit and kneel down next to him and stroke/talk to him, and if he doesnt bark, he gets a treat and plenty of praise, and it's working!
I really do feel like i'm making progress.
It's frustrating when you can't trust your dog, because you worry, and mine being a JRT, won't back down to any dog.
But, I would not let any trainer hit my dog, IMO, there is no need.
thanks for all your replys guys.
Twistingmymelon - he was had his bits off but not from a puppy. He is a rescue so I think they did it when he was brought in.
First session is tonight and I'm already feeling a bit nervous, just have to try and stay calm as, as people have said, he'll be able to pick up on it for sure.
I'll keep you posted!
Twistingmymelon - he was had his bits off but not from a puppy. He is a rescue so I think they did it when he was brought in.
First session is tonight and I'm already feeling a bit nervous, just have to try and stay calm as, as people have said, he'll be able to pick up on it for sure.
I'll keep you posted!
Well, the first class was last night and I would say it was pretty successful.
The most immediate change was the lead used, the trainer put a slip lead high up the neck and much tighter than his collar (not hugely tight, I could still get a couple of fingers underneath) so any correction needed with the lead made much more difference.
We did lots of work having other dogs walk round and sit in front of him while he was sat, and walking round with dogs in front and behind and he was much better behaved than I was expecting. A couple of barks right at the start of the class and once or twice when he locked eyes with one that was sat a bit too close but otherwise ok.
I was impressed with the trainer, no smacking or anything witnessed one or two sharp tugs on the lead when it was necessary but no more than I would have done myself. His method was basically, tell them once, if they don’t do it, make them do it. So rather than telling them to sit 5 or 6 times over and over, tell them once, if they don’t do it, make them sit, otherwise your just teaching them to ignore you. It was much more about teaching the human rather than the dog.
I will definitely be going back, I’ll let you know how he progresses!
The most immediate change was the lead used, the trainer put a slip lead high up the neck and much tighter than his collar (not hugely tight, I could still get a couple of fingers underneath) so any correction needed with the lead made much more difference.
We did lots of work having other dogs walk round and sit in front of him while he was sat, and walking round with dogs in front and behind and he was much better behaved than I was expecting. A couple of barks right at the start of the class and once or twice when he locked eyes with one that was sat a bit too close but otherwise ok.
I was impressed with the trainer, no smacking or anything witnessed one or two sharp tugs on the lead when it was necessary but no more than I would have done myself. His method was basically, tell them once, if they don’t do it, make them do it. So rather than telling them to sit 5 or 6 times over and over, tell them once, if they don’t do it, make them sit, otherwise your just teaching them to ignore you. It was much more about teaching the human rather than the dog.
I will definitely be going back, I’ll let you know how he progresses!
We are in a similar position having adopted an ex-stray from Greece 2 years ago. We have taken her to weekly training classes and worked with a behaviourist who says its fear aggression. When we first got her Lola reacted badly not just to dogs but people, cars, cyclists and having never lived in a house most sounds from the TV! The first few months were awful as we tried to keep her away from other dogs. Two years on and she's fine with most things but reacts badly if another dog runs up to her at speed. I think for Lola it's been about building trust and the good experiences beginning to out weigh the bad. She's not easy, but she's ours and we love her!
jamest1988 said:
I was impressed with the trainer, no smacking or anything witnessed one or two sharp tugs on the lead when it was necessary but no more than I would have done myself. His method was basically, tell them once, if they don’t do it, make them do it.
No trainer should suggest smacking a dog!?!?And yes, always enforce the command. That is one the things with recall and a long line. I've seen a trainer use a long line to enforce an off-lead "wait" command, she stood on the long line, the dog stopped sharpish. But it waited !
Glad to hear it went well. My dog's behaviour sounds very much like yours, and is also a rescue, although it looks like you're having alot more luck than I ever did. His anxiety around other dogs is so overwhelming that I just can't get through to him and distract him with anything else. The behaviourist we saw didn't really think putting him in a class with other dogs would help, and concentrated on giving us advice for what to do on walks when other dogs appeared (using clicker training). It worked for a while and things improved and then after one fight with another not-so friendly dog I was back at square one, with his dog aggression as bad as ever.
If you think your dog will respond to clicker training, the book "Click to Calm" offers some really good advice and techniques, but will be most helpful if the other dogs you come across are all on the lead - a luxury I just didn't have where I live.
To be honest I've always just kept mine on a short lead and don't take any chances around other dogs and I'd say if your classes don't help things at all, you need to do the same.
Please don't follow Steve Singh's Ceser Milan-esque pseudo advice to the letter. Approaching another dog with slack in the lead if there is any chance of your dog attacking is far too risky. This is my reality everyday with my dog. I agree tension in the lead makes things worse, but you need to be able to pull your dog back if he goes to bite, so its a catch 22. But it can just all happen too fast if you're dog has even 1 foot of slack so its just not worth it - crossing the road or giving a wide berth is the best tactic. It won't fix your dog but it keeps the other dog safe.
What seems to recently be working for me is using a nylon muzzle. I just got one for going to the vets (rather than the fairly horrid baskerville one I also have) but use it on walks now if there are other dogs about. This allows my dog to get right up close to the other dog and sniff it, and I can keep the lead quite slack, knowing there's nothing he can do - if it all kicks off, no harm done. But what seems to be happening is my dog seems to be picking less fights (maybe because he knows he can't bite) and so most of the introductions to other dogs go quite well and without drama. My hope is that the more of these we pull off, the less anxious he will get when he spots a dog, and one day I might not need the muzzle and the lead.
But most importantly, remember - its only behaviour. Don't take it personally.
If you think your dog will respond to clicker training, the book "Click to Calm" offers some really good advice and techniques, but will be most helpful if the other dogs you come across are all on the lead - a luxury I just didn't have where I live.
To be honest I've always just kept mine on a short lead and don't take any chances around other dogs and I'd say if your classes don't help things at all, you need to do the same.
Please don't follow Steve Singh's Ceser Milan-esque pseudo advice to the letter. Approaching another dog with slack in the lead if there is any chance of your dog attacking is far too risky. This is my reality everyday with my dog. I agree tension in the lead makes things worse, but you need to be able to pull your dog back if he goes to bite, so its a catch 22. But it can just all happen too fast if you're dog has even 1 foot of slack so its just not worth it - crossing the road or giving a wide berth is the best tactic. It won't fix your dog but it keeps the other dog safe.
What seems to recently be working for me is using a nylon muzzle. I just got one for going to the vets (rather than the fairly horrid baskerville one I also have) but use it on walks now if there are other dogs about. This allows my dog to get right up close to the other dog and sniff it, and I can keep the lead quite slack, knowing there's nothing he can do - if it all kicks off, no harm done. But what seems to be happening is my dog seems to be picking less fights (maybe because he knows he can't bite) and so most of the introductions to other dogs go quite well and without drama. My hope is that the more of these we pull off, the less anxious he will get when he spots a dog, and one day I might not need the muzzle and the lead.
But most importantly, remember - its only behaviour. Don't take it personally.
Best advice I ever got was "Say a command, make it happen."
As for punishment, sometimes just a stern look or a raised voice is sufficent. I sometimes scruff my dogs, give them a little shake nothing to heavy or grab their chops and have a word with them. All depends on the dog though.
As for punishment, sometimes just a stern look or a raised voice is sufficent. I sometimes scruff my dogs, give them a little shake nothing to heavy or grab their chops and have a word with them. All depends on the dog though.
Wrathalanche said:
Please don't follow Steve Singh's Ceser Milan-esque pseudo advice to the letter. Approaching another dog with slack in the lead if there is any chance of your dog attacking is far too risky. This is my reality everyday with my dog. I agree tension in the lead makes things worse, but you need to be able to pull your dog back if he goes to bite, so its a catch 22. But it can just all happen too fast if you're dog has even 1 foot of slack so its just not worth it - crossing the road or giving a wide berth is the best tactic. It won't fix your dog but it keeps the other dog safe.
Please watch from 16-17 mins onwards...practice in a controlled way.http://youtu.be/YhKRAd1Z9cY
Sexual Chocolate said:
Best advice I ever got was "Say a command, make it happen."
As for punishment, sometimes just a stern look or a raised voice is sufficent. I sometimes scruff my dogs, give them a little shake nothing to heavy or grab their chops and have a word with them. All depends on the dog though.
I sometimes walk a viszla whose owners are a bit slack with her, to the point she thinks she can mess about. As for punishment, sometimes just a stern look or a raised voice is sufficent. I sometimes scruff my dogs, give them a little shake nothing to heavy or grab their chops and have a word with them. All depends on the dog though.
I make a command once, and once only. If ignored, I blow a raspberry noise and say "What did I say?" in a stern voice. Believe me, I can do 'stern'.
That generally does it. As does my secret trick of having a sausage in my pocket. Once the dog knows I have one of these, good behaviour is more or less guaranteed.
These are dried 'deli sausages' with venison / tripe, from the pet food section at Waitrose. Like crack cocaine for dogs.
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