Types of birds
Discussion
Brinyan said:
I was thinking earlier, do birds ever breed between types - sparrow & goldfinch, for instance.
Obviously dogs & cats do, so do birds? As far as I ve seen, there s the standard range of birds & not unique mixes of 2 types.
So you're mixing up 'breeds' with 'species'.Obviously dogs & cats do, so do birds? As far as I ve seen, there s the standard range of birds & not unique mixes of 2 types.
Dogs are one species, many breeds. Same with cats. This is due to humans selectively separating traits and bloodlines over a fairly long while. One of the separators between species (not the only one) is whether they can interbreed.
Birds are a group of species. A sparrow and goldfinch can't breed in the same way humans and chimps can't. They're not different variants of the same species.
Brinyan said:
I was thinking earlier, do birds ever breed between types - sparrow & goldfinch, for instance.
Obviously dogs & cats do, so do birds? As far as I ve seen, there s the standard range of birds & not unique mixes of 2 types.
Define types - a sparrow and goldfinch are from different family groups nevermind genus so are even more separated from each other so definitely not for those 2. Obviously dogs & cats do, so do birds? As far as I ve seen, there s the standard range of birds & not unique mixes of 2 types.
Within the same species though, you can definitely get different subspecies interbreeding and sometimes if they are very closely related, even between species but that's pretty uncommon in the wild.
Sway said:
....
Birds are a group of species. A sparrow and goldfinch can't breed in the same way humans and chimps can't. They're not different variants of the same species.
If I can be pedantic, birds (avians) are a group of orders that encompass various families of different species....Birds are a group of species. A sparrow and goldfinch can't breed in the same way humans and chimps can't. They're not different variants of the same species.
Edited by isaldiri on Thursday 2nd July 20:35
isaldiri said:
If I can be pedantic, birds (avians) are a group of orders that encompass various families of different species....
You may indeed chap, I was partially deliberately simplifying, but also I couldn't remember all the sequence of order/genera/yadda yadda! Edited by isaldiri on Thursday 2nd July 20:35
Sway said:
So you're mixing up 'breeds' with 'species'.
Dogs are one species, many breeds. Same with cats. This is due to humans selectively separating traits and bloodlines over a fairly long while. One of the separators between species (not the only one) is whether they can interbreed.
Birds are a group of species. A sparrow and goldfinch can't breed in the same way humans and chimps can't. They're not different variants of the same species.
Not quite how it works.Dogs are one species, many breeds. Same with cats. This is due to humans selectively separating traits and bloodlines over a fairly long while. One of the separators between species (not the only one) is whether they can interbreed.
Birds are a group of species. A sparrow and goldfinch can't breed in the same way humans and chimps can't. They're not different variants of the same species.
Lions and Tigers and different species. They can breed.
Ditto sheep and goats and many, many others.
Tracklover said:
Brinyan said:
I was thinking earlier, do birds ever breed between types - sparrow & goldfinch, for instance.
Obviously dogs & cats do, so do birds? As far as I ve seen, there s the standard range of birds & not unique mixes of 2 types.
Yes there is lots of cross species breeding.Obviously dogs & cats do, so do birds? As far as I ve seen, there s the standard range of birds & not unique mixes of 2 types.
Tracklover said:
Sway said:
So you're mixing up 'breeds' with 'species'.
Dogs are one species, many breeds. Same with cats. This is due to humans selectively separating traits and bloodlines over a fairly long while. One of the separators between species (not the only one) is whether they can interbreed.
Birds are a group of species. A sparrow and goldfinch can't breed in the same way humans and chimps can't. They're not different variants of the same species.
Not quite how it works.Dogs are one species, many breeds. Same with cats. This is due to humans selectively separating traits and bloodlines over a fairly long while. One of the separators between species (not the only one) is whether they can interbreed.
Birds are a group of species. A sparrow and goldfinch can't breed in the same way humans and chimps can't. They're not different variants of the same species.
Lions and Tigers and different species. They can breed.
Ditto sheep and goats and many, many others.
As some species can, lions/tigers in captivity, the whole horses/donkeys/mules/asses thing that always messes with my head, etc.
However, if they can't interbreed (across a population, assuming both parties are fertile) then it does mean they are different species.
As Sway says, it's not the only factor in determining whether two populations are distinct species, but the ability to interbreed and produce fertile offspring is one factor.
Keep in mind that this is humans trying to impose order onto something which is inherently messy. Nature scoffs at your tree diagrams. Speciation (the splitting off of a new species from another) is not a discrete and absolute thing. If you split two populations up and stop them interbreeding, given long enough they will drift far enough apart to be reproductively incompatible with each other, and we'll then call them species, but you may also end up with a situation where there are lots of little populations with restricted gene flow between them, and some of them can hybridise with others and some can't and taxonomists throw their hands up and call it a "species complex".
An example of wild birds - the ruddy duck Oxyura jamaicensis and the white headed duck Oxyura leucocephala are distinct but related species. They can hybridise, and their hybrids are fertile. We killed all the ruddy ducks in Europe, because their interbreeding with the endangered white headed duck threatened to destroy it as a distinct species.
We have the same problem with crucian carp (Carassius carassius) and common goldfish (Carassius auratus) where people chucking their unwanted goldfish in the local pond are genetically destroying populations of crucian carp by interbreeding.
Keep in mind that this is humans trying to impose order onto something which is inherently messy. Nature scoffs at your tree diagrams. Speciation (the splitting off of a new species from another) is not a discrete and absolute thing. If you split two populations up and stop them interbreeding, given long enough they will drift far enough apart to be reproductively incompatible with each other, and we'll then call them species, but you may also end up with a situation where there are lots of little populations with restricted gene flow between them, and some of them can hybridise with others and some can't and taxonomists throw their hands up and call it a "species complex".
An example of wild birds - the ruddy duck Oxyura jamaicensis and the white headed duck Oxyura leucocephala are distinct but related species. They can hybridise, and their hybrids are fertile. We killed all the ruddy ducks in Europe, because their interbreeding with the endangered white headed duck threatened to destroy it as a distinct species.
We have the same problem with crucian carp (Carassius carassius) and common goldfish (Carassius auratus) where people chucking their unwanted goldfish in the local pond are genetically destroying populations of crucian carp by interbreeding.
Tracklover said:
Sway said:
So you're mixing up 'breeds' with 'species'.
Dogs are one species, many breeds. Same with cats. This is due to humans selectively separating traits and bloodlines over a fairly long while. One of the separators between species (not the only one) is whether they can interbreed.
Birds are a group of species. A sparrow and goldfinch can't breed in the same way humans and chimps can't. They're not different variants of the same species.
Not quite how it works.Dogs are one species, many breeds. Same with cats. This is due to humans selectively separating traits and bloodlines over a fairly long while. One of the separators between species (not the only one) is whether they can interbreed.
Birds are a group of species. A sparrow and goldfinch can't breed in the same way humans and chimps can't. They're not different variants of the same species.
Lions and Tigers and different species. They can breed.
Ditto sheep and goats and many, many others.
Sheep and goats can breed with each other?
otolith said:
As Sway says, it's not the only factor in determining whether two populations are distinct species, but the ability to interbreed and produce fertile offspring is one factor.
Keep in mind that this is humans trying to impose order onto something which is inherently messy. Nature scoffs at your tree diagrams. Speciation (the splitting off of a new species from another) is not a discrete and absolute thing. If you split two populations up and stop them interbreeding, given long enough they will drift far enough apart to be reproductively incompatible with each other, and we'll then call them species, but you may also end up with a situation where there are lots of little populations with restricted gene flow between them, and some of them can hybridise with others and some can't and taxonomists throw their hands up and call it a "species complex".
An example of wild birds - the ruddy duck Oxyura jamaicensis and the white headed duck Oxyura leucocephala are distinct but related species. They can hybridise, and their hybrids are fertile. We killed all the ruddy ducks in Europe, because their interbreeding with the endangered white headed duck threatened to destroy it as a distinct species.
We have the same problem with crucian carp (Carassius carassius) and common goldfish (Carassius auratus) where people chucking their unwanted goldfish in the local pond are genetically destroying populations of crucian carp by interbreeding.
interestingly, birds, unlike mammals are much likelier to be able to interbreed between genus (ie one step above species) rather than just species as well.... it can and does happen (very!) rarely for mammals (that don't keel over quickly anyway) but much easier and likely for birds.Keep in mind that this is humans trying to impose order onto something which is inherently messy. Nature scoffs at your tree diagrams. Speciation (the splitting off of a new species from another) is not a discrete and absolute thing. If you split two populations up and stop them interbreeding, given long enough they will drift far enough apart to be reproductively incompatible with each other, and we'll then call them species, but you may also end up with a situation where there are lots of little populations with restricted gene flow between them, and some of them can hybridise with others and some can't and taxonomists throw their hands up and call it a "species complex".
An example of wild birds - the ruddy duck Oxyura jamaicensis and the white headed duck Oxyura leucocephala are distinct but related species. They can hybridise, and their hybrids are fertile. We killed all the ruddy ducks in Europe, because their interbreeding with the endangered white headed duck threatened to destroy it as a distinct species.
We have the same problem with crucian carp (Carassius carassius) and common goldfish (Carassius auratus) where people chucking their unwanted goldfish in the local pond are genetically destroying populations of crucian carp by interbreeding.
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