Discussion
abels said:
plotloss said: If you're in IT, and not in the UK and thinking about coming back - dont bother.
Its bleak, the bleakest I have seen it in the last 10 years anyway.
Matt.
It isn't much better in the rest of the world.
Blimey! I didnt realise it was that bad!
These investment bankers who fuelled the dot con explosion really do have a lot to answer for dont they!
Matt.
How on earth can you blame us for the dot com explosion?
Fools piled their money into ridicuous companies and, unsurprisingly, got burnt. They thought they were going to get money for nothing, and seem shocked that it isn't that simple.
Also, why should they be to blame for the downturn in IT. Again, you have people seeming to think that they could do a job that half the world wanted to (and is able to) do, and now being shocked when there isn't enough work to go round, and wages are dropping.
Supply and demand, innit?
Fools piled their money into ridicuous companies and, unsurprisingly, got burnt. They thought they were going to get money for nothing, and seem shocked that it isn't that simple.
Also, why should they be to blame for the downturn in IT. Again, you have people seeming to think that they could do a job that half the world wanted to (and is able to) do, and now being shocked when there isn't enough work to go round, and wages are dropping.
Supply and demand, innit?
Ok, I may have got the exact arm of the banking industry wrong but isnt it the banking industry as a whole that was deemed responsible?
Money was thrown hand over fist at companies with highly questionable financial models, that lets face it had absolutely no chance of making any money at all. Then on the backside of that you (the banking industry not you personally) told investors to invest in these highly spurious money wounds which were ultimately doomed.
The whole dot con thing was ultimately doomed, because its just not possible to make money out of nothing. The current trend in IT observation books is looking at the sharp practices the banks put in place to exploit this exact thing. It may not have been investment bankers, but this certaintly went on.
I agree though, too many people spoiled it for the people who actually had the skills. This wouldnt have stopped the dot com crash though, it was going to happen it was just time. Currently I feel the downturn is more based on the technology crash than the amount of people in IT. I worked for a firm whose share price was £72 and is now about 53p, even though they managed to hit their forecasts.
Matt.
>> Edited by plotloss on Wednesday 4th December 14:55
Money was thrown hand over fist at companies with highly questionable financial models, that lets face it had absolutely no chance of making any money at all. Then on the backside of that you (the banking industry not you personally) told investors to invest in these highly spurious money wounds which were ultimately doomed.
The whole dot con thing was ultimately doomed, because its just not possible to make money out of nothing. The current trend in IT observation books is looking at the sharp practices the banks put in place to exploit this exact thing. It may not have been investment bankers, but this certaintly went on.
I agree though, too many people spoiled it for the people who actually had the skills. This wouldnt have stopped the dot com crash though, it was going to happen it was just time. Currently I feel the downturn is more based on the technology crash than the amount of people in IT. I worked for a firm whose share price was £72 and is now about 53p, even though they managed to hit their forecasts.
Matt.
>> Edited by plotloss on Wednesday 4th December 14:55
Animal said: You could try insurance. There are so many incompetent people in the Lloyd's market that anyone with an ounce of sense can get by.
Why leave Vancouver anyway?!!!
Home sick wife is at it again!
IT is bad here too, loads of qualified people with nothing to do, way to many jumped on the boom.
I want to go south but not sure if the US is easy pickins at the moment either.
Gentlemen;
Too many people chasing too few punters. Competitors within many markets kicking the sh1te out of each other for market share.
However, turnover for vanity - profit for sanity.
Profit, however, is increasingly constrained and undermined by a veritable raft of exogenous shocks (broadly exemplified by 'red tape' [in all it's glorious forms]) and an overall, media inspired, apparent distaste for 'excess' returns.
The reinvestment required for all our futures is either cancelled, delayed or redirected elsewhere.
Micro rant finis.
Too many people chasing too few punters. Competitors within many markets kicking the sh1te out of each other for market share.
However, turnover for vanity - profit for sanity.
Profit, however, is increasingly constrained and undermined by a veritable raft of exogenous shocks (broadly exemplified by 'red tape' [in all it's glorious forms]) and an overall, media inspired, apparent distaste for 'excess' returns.
The reinvestment required for all our futures is either cancelled, delayed or redirected elsewhere.
Micro rant finis.
There are hundreds and thousands of people finishing uni' with Computer / IT related degrees and they are in for a shock. The market is flooded with over qualified candidates. I do feel for the guys that started their degrees in 98 when times were good because they would have almost guaranteed a job at that point had they left uni then. The problem is when companies are now advertising for junior roles there are literally thousands of applicants.
I remember the days when a technical guy could walk into an interview and tell them what job he wanted to do and it was the interviewers job to convince him they could offer it. If you sent 10 clients one CV you had 8 interview requests. I now have some great guys profiles and they are looking for work without much luck and I have followed some of these guys careers for the last 6 years and they are good !
My advise for what its worth is if you are looking for a career plan go into Finance (Accountancy etc.) or Supply Chain (Purchasing, Logistics etc) as even in bad times this are the guys companies are hiring to find them cost cuts in other areas. Don’t go into IT (or recruitment).
I remember the days when a technical guy could walk into an interview and tell them what job he wanted to do and it was the interviewers job to convince him they could offer it. If you sent 10 clients one CV you had 8 interview requests. I now have some great guys profiles and they are looking for work without much luck and I have followed some of these guys careers for the last 6 years and they are good !
My advise for what its worth is if you are looking for a career plan go into Finance (Accountancy etc.) or Supply Chain (Purchasing, Logistics etc) as even in bad times this are the guys companies are hiring to find them cost cuts in other areas. Don’t go into IT (or recruitment).
northernboy said: How on earth can you blame us for the dot com explosion?
Fools piled their money into ridicuous companies and, unsurprisingly, got burnt. They thought they were going to get money for nothing, and seem shocked that it isn't that simple.
Also, why should they be to blame for the downturn in IT. Again, you have people seeming to think that they could do a job that half the world wanted to (and is able to) do, and now being shocked when there isn't enough work to go round, and wages are dropping.
Supply and demand, innit?
Actually agree with Plotloss on this one - work in IT and see the rise and fall in the last couple of years. Not necessarily dot.com'ers either - a lot of other companies got in on the bandwagon and didnt really think about it. When it all goes bad it then has a kick-in effect on the rest of the industry...
Everyone makes cut backs, but as with most things they tend to take a pendulum approach. Previously it swung too far the other way, now it is too far back... but it is swinging and should be back on track in the medium to long term....
I agree that IT industry is hard at the moment, but like so many other companies it got a little carried away. Massive growth isnt sustainable and therefore you cant keep it up for long.
However, would say that things in certain sectors arent that bad. I work in security and it isnt too bad in comparison to other areas. The more experience and knowledge that you have the easier it is. However, the days of people creaming it in from IT seem to have come to an end (though there are still some that do). Its back into line on how it should be - i.e. 20% better paid that other professional sectors...
Cheers,
Paul
Paul,
Do you feel the current market resilience being displayed in your specific sector of security is currently being fuelled by the 'war on terrorism' thing when companies are worrying about a commercial attack or do you think in these halcyon internet days IT decision makers are just more aware of the risks?
I suppose though more companies are putting their core competencies on the web and hence have a greater need for security.
Just curious really.
Matt.
Do you feel the current market resilience being displayed in your specific sector of security is currently being fuelled by the 'war on terrorism' thing when companies are worrying about a commercial attack or do you think in these halcyon internet days IT decision makers are just more aware of the risks?
I suppose though more companies are putting their core competencies on the web and hence have a greater need for security.
Just curious really.
Matt.
I think it was both really, on one side the Investment Bankers were throwing money for great reward and on the other side the stockbrokers of the same firm were punting stock with wanton abandonment to people who really didnt know any better and hence the conflict of interests, they were representing both their investors and their clients.
Matt.
Matt.
There were definitely some in banking who both threw money into dot coms, and suggested to others that they ought to do so, but as my mam used to say "If he told you to jump off the Tyne Bridge, would you do that too?"
Most people who got burnt, though, were out to make a quick buck.
I used to ask candidates at interview, at the height of the boom, "What's a company worth".
With a bit of prodding, they would tend to come out with the standard answer of "lowest of two things, expected profits over the life of the company, or cost of setting the same business up". I'd then ask how much to set up a firm like Amazon,com. Answer would be "couple of million for web site, couple for advertising, office rental, etc, maybe 10 million".
I'd then say "so, why is Amazon valued at 18 billion?"
It looked ridiculous back then, even without the benefit we now have of hindsight.
Most people who got burnt, though, were out to make a quick buck.
I used to ask candidates at interview, at the height of the boom, "What's a company worth".
With a bit of prodding, they would tend to come out with the standard answer of "lowest of two things, expected profits over the life of the company, or cost of setting the same business up". I'd then ask how much to set up a firm like Amazon,com. Answer would be "couple of million for web site, couple for advertising, office rental, etc, maybe 10 million".
I'd then say "so, why is Amazon valued at 18 billion?"
It looked ridiculous back then, even without the benefit we now have of hindsight.
I really dont understand this doom and gloom in the IT industry stuff, It seems to me that its just the very high end of things thats was maybe over valued and has gone tits up. The IT bods i know struggling are the ex bank types who were on a fortune and now carnt get anything like what they were on in real companies, I know of 1 it Director post that has gone un filled for over 6 months as there are few applicants and the ones that do are shit ok it pays 50k not a 100k but its still a vacencey.
Together with too many book msce contractors with no real world experience thats dragged those rates to nothing.
The middle ground stuff seems to have loads of work at the mo, were flat out and just taken on more staff, well more acuratley poached them...
mind you i think its the same in engineering some firms are flat out and some have nothing
wierd...
Together with too many book msce contractors with no real world experience thats dragged those rates to nothing.
The middle ground stuff seems to have loads of work at the mo, were flat out and just taken on more staff, well more acuratley poached them...
mind you i think its the same in engineering some firms are flat out and some have nothing
wierd...
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