Oi Nelson - SHUT IT!!!

[CarZee]

Sorry, but Nelson Mandela is abusing his status and need to shut his yap right now.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/2710181.stm

Mandela condemns US stance on Iraq


Former South African president Nelson Mandela has criticised US President George W Bush over Iraq, saying the sole reason for a possible US-led attack would be to gain control of Iraqi oil.
The US stance on Iraq is "arrogant" and would cause "a holocaust", Mr Mandela, a Nobel Peace laureate and one of the world's most respected figures, told a forum in Johannesburg.

He also said UK Prime Minister Tony Blair - who supports Washington over Iraq - was in fact the "US prime minister".

Mr Mandela, 84, accused both the US and UK governments of undermining the United Nations.

"Why does the United States behave so arrogantly?" Mr Mandela asked.

"Their friend Israel has got weapons of mass destruction but because it's their ally they won't ask the United Nations to get rid of them.

"They just want the oil," Mr Mandela went on. "We must expose this as much as possible."

Consistent attacks

Nelson Mandela called Mr Bush "a president who can't think properly and wants to plunge the world into holocaust".

He said war "would be devastating not just to Iraq but also to the whole of the Middle East and to other countries of the world".

Mr Mandela added that both Mr Bush and Tony Blair were undermining the United Nations.

"Is this because the secretary general of the United Nations [Ghanaian Kofi Annan] is now a black man? They never did that when secretary generals were white," he said.

Mr Mandela has consistently voiced strong opposition against a possible war on Iraq - in line with more diplomatic statements issued by the South African Government.

On Tuesday, a spokesman for President Thabo Mbeki told the BBC that said higher oil prices brought on by any Middle East war would condemn Africa to deep economic crisis.

Mr Mbeki is preparing to leave for Britain to meet Tony Blair at the weekend.

Talk of holocaust, and making assertions like "they just want the oil" are just unhelpful..

but this...

"Is this because the secretary general of the United Nations [Ghanaian Kofi Annan] is now a black man? They never did that when secretary generals were white,"

.. is a feckin outrageous suggestion.

Mandela's way out of line. His accusations will be deeply divisive the world over and his clear intention is to turn black Americans against Bush on this matter.



edited to remove a couple of expletives now I've calmed down and sparked up

[ErnestM]

I guess Mandela thinks that the $ 15,000,000,000 that Bush just asked for to fund AIDS treatment in Africa is going to be just for the "white folk"

I agree CarZee,

Mr. Mandela, shut it! 1 pound to Carzee for trademarked phrase

ErnestM

>> Edited by ErnestM on Thursday 30th January 18:24

[mannginger]

I fully agree - I hold a lot of respect for Nelson, but this is just plain daft - hold your tongue Mr Mandela sir, it's not making any sense.

(No commission for Carzee there!!!)

[CarZee]

mannginger said: I fully agree - I hold a lot of respect for Nelson, but this is just plain daft - hold your tongue Mr Mandela sir, it's not making any sense.

quite right.. it's because he's such a respected figure around the world that this is so serious..

mind you, at 84, maybe he's losing the plot a bit.. if it can happen to Thatch and Tebbit, why not him?

[Bodo]

Everything Mandela says in this context sounds reasonable, but the last sentence in the quote just makes it ridiculous. big

[apache]

wtf does he know anyhow, he's been banged up for most of his life :toungueincheeksmiley:

I think that inflammatory remark is racist too

[granville]

Strangely enough, in my edoocaceonalist days, I had scant regard for the tedious ubiquity of the umpteen 'Mandella areas' that formed the mainstay of higher educational imbibing zone nomenclature.

I'm not saying that Uncle Botha's regime was exactly spiffing for all concerned but I was always worried about the veracity of student bodies' general rationale with regards to NM's imprisonment; what with the old adage about one man's terrorist being another's freedom fighter and how this chap might have been regarded had he been, perhaps, an Irish terrorist?

That students, with their natural proclivity for all things connected with the port wing, as it were, were blindly obsessed with topics, especially their 'cause celebre' of racism, always persauded me of motives beyond the basic issues of civil libertarianism that apartheid repressed.

That NM makes racist jibes against Bush is, IMHO, typically risible - Cow-liyn Porl & Condolice Rice ain't exactly radical proponents of the KKK - are they now?

So whatever injustices the former South Afrikaan regime perpetrated, you can't help feeling that NM was indeed the perfect icon for the blubbering classes.

Just give him a lentil and a slap round the chops with a wet kipper.

Git.

[cnh1990]

The blacks in America do not really identify with blacks in Africa. Some may but to the majority of blacks, they are Americans first. The Hispanics have taken over as the largest minority in the USA. I don't think people even know the aid we give the world. Of the food donations given out world wide, the USA supplies 60% of the food donations as a gift to the world. Just given away...Sometimes I feel we should just horde all this food and just give it out to the prefered countries.
Calvin

[308gt4]

Mandela is right about one thing, this war is about oil and nothing else. You can put any spin on it you like but the US and UK want that oil and nothing is going to stand in their way. It doesn't matter which side of politics is in, they both want to get the oil.

Oz is no better either as they have joined the frenzy and must be looking for some benefit after the war is over.

It's pathetic really, if you have oil you will either be "defended" (East Timor) or be harangued into a war.

Nelson may have lost the plot on the black/white statement but the thing about being old[close to death] and having been privy to higher level conversations than we are privy to generally means they will speak more of the truth [as they have perceived it but never before been willing to say] than we like to hear.

He is spot on with his oil statement

[deltaf]

Thats a nonsense statement, that america and britain only want iraqs oil.
Dont you reckon the rest of the world is going to have something to say about these two countries "grabbing" anothers assets?
Or didnt you think bout it?
Russia amongst others is already owed millions by iraq for weaponry and other equipment that they supplied, but were never paid for.
I think theyd have something to say about our master plans.
Get a convincing argument before coming out with this particular "conspiracy theory" nonsense.
It dosent make any sense simply for oil.
Others have got a claim to iraqs oil and a valid one at that, i dont think for a second that the likes of china or russia would stand by while we plundered.
Get real and stop spreading this daft idea.

[Racefan_uk]

I cannot believe that all of you are slagging off Nelson Mandela for telling the TRUTH!!!!!

The USA and the UK want the several TRILLION dollars worth of Afghan oil and it just happens that Iraq is the best route for the pipeline to go, plain and simple.

How can grown adults on this board defend the tactics of the US and UK INVADING, yes, INVADING another country just because they want a natural resource?

We all went balistic when Hitler invaded Poland and he wanted world domination and, more importantly, wanted to erase other ethnic and religious people from the face of the earth. So we stopped him, thank god.

How can you slag someone off for standing up for what they believe is right? Do you have solid reliable proof that the US and the UK are doing the right thing? No. No one does. It's all a big farce and more than likely several hundred, if not thousand allied soldiers will end up being killed or injured all for some extra barrels of oil.

The people who need to shut up are you lot. Get real and start looking at the bigger picture.

Oh, and as for other countries having a 'claim' on Iraq's money if they are 'liberated'. Do any of you honestly expect the US to spend BILLIONS on going to war with Saddam and then not take whatever is left once they are done? Come on... you can't be that naive? Surely? Russia won't get a look in, they tried to take over Afghanistan once and failed (as did the US to Vietnam) they are a country in economic crisis, they haven't got the manpower or money to stop the US doing what it wants.

>> Edited by Racefan_uk on Thursday 30th January 21:46

>> Edited by Racefan_uk on Thursday 30th January 21:47

[Bodo]

Racefan, from what I see the point of critics is Mandela using "it's only because Kofi Annan is black"-theory.

[cnh1990]

I don't know what some of these people have been smoking. Let me give you a reality check. While the world is paying a high price for oil and gas. We are not. It is not OPEC, it is your own goverment taxing it to death. Right now I can get reg. grade gas for $1.40/gal. Most people don't know we are sitting on vast oil fields in Alaska and off shore. We stay out of there to appease the tree huggers and the cost we pay for american labor and the equipment to extract oil in those enviroments is high. It is just cheaper to buy part of our oil abroad. After they run out oil is then we will tap our own reserves. We have less of a reliance of oil from that region than in the past. but the reliance is still there. We also can control the price of oil for a short period of time if we so choose to. Just the threat of releasing a fraction of the US oil reserves held in the tank farms on the open market can plunge the market price of crude. Some of these goverments need a steady oil income to function just as much as other countries need their oil. A drop in crude prices can be devestating to the GNP of many countries. The USA should start playing with the food markets and see how they like it.
Calvin


>> Edited by cnh1990 on Thursday 30th January 22:10

[CarZee]

Racefan_uk said: I cannot believe that all of you are slagging off Nelson Mandela for telling the TRUTH!!

Let's suppose for a minute that Mandela is right on the point about the oil. That part I can accomodate.

Are you seriously saying, though, that Bush & Blair aim to cause "a holocaust" with all the connotations that go with such a grotesque proposition?

Also, do you agree with Mandela that their aloofness toward the UN is because the current Secretary General is a black man? Do you agree that Mandela's racial slur against Bush is just and reasonable?

Do you think that ad hominem abuse, such as saying Blair (whatever we think of him) is no longer UK Prime Minister, but US Foreign Minister* is acceptable from an 'international envoy'? What kind of cretinous playground abuse is that? He's lowered himself to Mugabe's level as far as I am concerned.

* I've heard varied reports on what this quote was.. I selected the most likely sounding as heard on Radio 4 this evening.

[dubaiguy]

Many will tell you, particularly South Africans, that Nelson Mandela is, to put it politely, naive in the extreme.

I believe one needs to look to his personal history to understand his reasons for being so vehemently against aggression of any form.

[Racefan_uk]

The part about the UN secretary General is another point. I admit that and one that could be deliberated about for ages!

On the holocaust side of things, well... If the media are stating that the US and UK might be forced to use Nuclear and biological weapons themselves if that is what it takes to defeat Saddam, then the details have to be coming from somewhere. And I don't see the White house or Downing Street calming the fears of the US and British public (That is the biggest shock of all!)

As for what Mandela has stated about Blair being the "US envoy"? I completely agree! Tony Blair has been over to 'visit' Bush more than half a dozen times in the last few months. Why hasn't George been over here? From a UK point of view (and a slightly personal one) I'm sick to the back teeth of our government rolling over and taking orders from the US. We have far more important thing that need to be dealt with in the UK than sending the majority of our armed forces to a war that nobody wants. Why spend Billions (poorly) arming our forces for desert warfare when we have people dying on trolly's in hospital corridors?
Nobody I know wants us to go to war with Iraq. I haven't spoken to anyone who thinks its a good idea or even the right thing to do.

At the end of the day we really don't know what is actually happening over in Iraq. Only the UN inspectors know what they are doing and after several weeks of finding absolutely nothing suddenly they release that Saddam has been lying all along and has weapons hidden away after all. Come on... Even if I believed in conspiracy theories this one is a bit thin. Why shouldn't a country have its own weapons to defend itself?
The US has weapons of mass destruction, as does the UK, Russia, China, Israel, Pakistan, India I could go on.
Why is Iraq not allowed them? Because they might take over the neighbouring country with them and with it the big oil fields? Just what is the US (and UK) trying to defend in the name of 'War against terrorism'?

[CarZee]

Racefan_uk said: The part about the UN secretary General is another point. I admit that and one that could be deliberated about for ages!

You might be right. My position is perfectly clear cut at present though.

On the holocaust side of things, well... If the media are stating that the US and UK might be forced to use Nuclear and biological weapons themselves if that is what it takes to defeat Saddam, then the details have to be coming from somewhere.

What?? Where has that been stated in the press as fact that the US & UK may use nuclear & biological weapons? Perhaps in an editorial somewhere, but not from any source of import. That's a bullshit argument and nothing more.

Nobody I know wants us to go to war with Iraq. I haven't spoken to anyone who thinks its a good idea or even the right thing to do.

I don't think going to war with Iraq is a good idea at present. I never said I did support the idea. That's not what we're talking about though. We're talking about a man who is, rightly or wrongly, respected and held in esteem in many parts of the world abusing his position to make a confrontational statement, spoiled with racists slurs and personal abuse against the leaders of the UK and the US.

It doesn't matter if we all agree with him. His valid message was blighted by disgraceful and deeply distasteful slurs unbecoming of a leader, diplomat or statesman.

Just what is the US (and UK) trying to defend in the name of 'War against terrorism'?

Yada.. yada ... yada..

Let's be clear. We're not talkinbg about the idea of war itself. That's being discussed in other threads. We broadly agree with each other regarding that.

The point in this thread is Mandela's utterly distasteful outburst, accusing the whole west in effect of contemplating genocide. It's cheap and it's extremely nasty.

I'm interested in what DubaiGuy said. However, I think the more powerful (if corrupt) black African leaders are beginning to form a serious co-alition. I'm concerned that their aim is a racial polarisation and exploitation of the self-doubt burdening western liberals. Mandela's statement following Mbeki's tacit approval of Mugabe is unlikely to be a coincidence.

>> Edited by CarZee (moderator) on Thursday 30th January 23:01

[clanger]

Yep, if true, bit on the inflammatory side Nelson - I'll put it down to your age - a life of fighting racial oppression and injustice must, after all, eventually take its toll. In terms of intellect, bravery and clarity of mind Nelson generally gets my vote over cerebrally challenged George the puppetmeister (For puppet read Tone)...

[polar_ben]

Goshdarnit I luuurve this place sometimes... stonking debate from either side of the fence, and (as always) how could I ever put it better than derestrictor already has?! Bang on the money old fruit

[Bodo]

CarZee said: We're talking about a man who is, rightly or wrongly, respected and held in esteem in many parts of the world abusing his position to make a confrontational statement, spoiled with racists slurs and personal abuse against the leaders of the UK and the US.

CarZee, do you start regretting abuse against Tony Blair?