Shuttle crash evidence
Discussion
A tragic, tragic event - and I can't figure something out -
I'm no physicist, but the idea that people are finding intact helmets, fabric badges, body parts etc etc seems incongruous.
According to NASA themselves, "the Shuttle's external fuel tank re-enters our atmosphere at speeds of 22,000 km/h. The resulting temperatures of around 2,500 degrees centigrade cause it to burn up and leave a piece of aluminium about the size of a dining table".
The shuttle was lost at an altitude of 40 miles & was travelling at 13,200 mph. During an optimum descent, they expect to see 2,000 degrees centigrade (cremations are carried out at 900 degrees) - so if a bit of polyester fabric lands intact in Texas why didn't they make the whole shuttle out of the stuff?
Sorry for the macabre post, but I can't figure this out
I'm no physicist, but the idea that people are finding intact helmets, fabric badges, body parts etc etc seems incongruous.
According to NASA themselves, "the Shuttle's external fuel tank re-enters our atmosphere at speeds of 22,000 km/h. The resulting temperatures of around 2,500 degrees centigrade cause it to burn up and leave a piece of aluminium about the size of a dining table".
The shuttle was lost at an altitude of 40 miles & was travelling at 13,200 mph. During an optimum descent, they expect to see 2,000 degrees centigrade (cremations are carried out at 900 degrees) - so if a bit of polyester fabric lands intact in Texas why didn't they make the whole shuttle out of the stuff?
Sorry for the macabre post, but I can't figure this out
I'm with you on this one Ben, I heard it on the radio and couldn't understand it. Still don't, how could/did the helmet get out of the shuttle, if the shuttle did break up/explode/disintigrate(sp) then I'd assume the helmet and most fabric would too.
>> Edited by Graham.J on Monday 3rd February 16:14
>> Edited by Graham.J on Monday 3rd February 16:14
Ben,
almost everything on the shuttle is made of a fire resistant material including the badges helmets etc.
The helmets would be of little use if they were not tougher than the heads they were menat to protect either...
Also some of the structure of the shuttle including the cockpit would not have felt the full force of the external temps on reentry IMHO.
almost everything on the shuttle is made of a fire resistant material including the badges helmets etc.
The helmets would be of little use if they were not tougher than the heads they were menat to protect either...
Also some of the structure of the shuttle including the cockpit would not have felt the full force of the external temps on reentry IMHO.
Because it was already inside the atmosphere when it broke up, temperatures would have been lower. The crew's capsule probably remained intact for longer than we would like to think and broke up after the main event, scattering the not so hot contents far and wide.
I feel sorry for the poor guys left up on the space station with a worrying and delayed journey home ahead of them.
I feel sorry for the poor guys left up on the space station with a worrying and delayed journey home ahead of them.
No physicist either but id imagine that most of the smaller/lighter pieces would once they had broken away from the main bulk of the wreakage would decelerate very quickly to speeds where heat build up wouldnt be a problem, though did you see that helmet an dcompare it with the pictures of an intact one..really a terrible thought !! the situation up there doesnt bear thinking about.
rich1231 said: IMHO, it wasnt the heat that would have killed the crew but the enormous forces felt when the break up began. I hope it was quick.
Have to agree here, although an inappropiate time, the crew cabin of the Challenger disaster was a sealed unit and survived the initial explosion. Telemetry showed that the crew were still alive because someone switched on an oxygen supply AFTER the explosion when the cabin was falling back down to earth. It was the 200+ mph impact into the sea that sadly killed them.
I have friends in Israel , they say thet during the telivised broadcast from Ilon Ramon to Ariel Sharon the camera paned to look out of the porthole , clearly visable on the wing was a damaged area ,,,, now i have not seen it but this is what they tell me was clearly visable damage , now would NASA take a chance on something like this ,,,, i of course would like to think no ,,,,,but then
All to do with terminal velocities and the heating effect (hope this below makes sense....)
The shuttle was quite a way into its descent when it started to break up. The shuttle is placed into a position where it purposely starts to use the atmosphere to slow itself down. Between 6:43 and 7:00 it went from 16,300mph to 12,500mph.
At the exact point that it broke up, it was performing what's called a "roll reversal" - a funny S shaped roll that shrugs off massive amounts of speed.
It is this move that heats up the bottom of the craft - imagine how hot your brakes would be to decelerate from 12,500mph!
Once the craft began to break up, the parts instead of being in "controlled" flight down would come out of their current trajectory into "free fall" and would find their natural terminal velocity (which is related to the surface area).
Remember that the maximum temperature is around 1200 degrees C (Alu melts at 660 degrees), but that is maintained because the shuttle is purposely in a trajectory that is designed to slow it down and land, rather than "free fall".
I would imagine also that things like helmets took quite some time to get out of the falling unit.
J
The shuttle was quite a way into its descent when it started to break up. The shuttle is placed into a position where it purposely starts to use the atmosphere to slow itself down. Between 6:43 and 7:00 it went from 16,300mph to 12,500mph.
At the exact point that it broke up, it was performing what's called a "roll reversal" - a funny S shaped roll that shrugs off massive amounts of speed.
It is this move that heats up the bottom of the craft - imagine how hot your brakes would be to decelerate from 12,500mph!
Once the craft began to break up, the parts instead of being in "controlled" flight down would come out of their current trajectory into "free fall" and would find their natural terminal velocity (which is related to the surface area).
Remember that the maximum temperature is around 1200 degrees C (Alu melts at 660 degrees), but that is maintained because the shuttle is purposely in a trajectory that is designed to slow it down and land, rather than "free fall".
I would imagine also that things like helmets took quite some time to get out of the falling unit.
J
I was told that the wing was damaged on take off, when a chunk of frozen C02 from the big liquid fuel tank broke off and crashed into the wing. Once it was on it's was up there wasn't alot NASA could do except have a good look once in space.
I'm sure they would have had them wait it out on the Space Station if there had been any doubt in their minds that the wing was unsafe.
Clearly though, the damage was worse than they thought. Apparently the flight computers tried to compensate, but as the wing progressively disintegrated the Shuttle fell out of its key 35 degree aproach angle. Once this happened it was all over for the poor crew. Tragic.
Andy 400se
I'm sure they would have had them wait it out on the Space Station if there had been any doubt in their minds that the wing was unsafe.
Clearly though, the damage was worse than they thought. Apparently the flight computers tried to compensate, but as the wing progressively disintegrated the Shuttle fell out of its key 35 degree aproach angle. Once this happened it was all over for the poor crew. Tragic.
Andy 400se
I dont quite figure it the same as you joust, but no worries.
I heard that the sensors on the left side started to malfunction, and shortly after, heat began to build up in the left landing gear well.
The computers detected this and carried out a roll to the right to take the area out of the blowtorch effect taking place, and then they lost contact.
I cant think of a more horrendous thing to happen.
Also read on yahoo news that nasa fired its safety advisors a while back and one of the more senior ones resigned cos of the safety concerns they were all voicing.
Seems to me that nasa still havent learned that safety comes first, accountants should come a long way down the list.
Just a thought, but the shuttle mission could have been scrubbed if they had separated the tank and the boosters some time during launch, they could have safely come back in to land at that point, but once they gain orbit, theres no way back. A very bad thing to happen.
RIP Columbia and crew our thoughts are with you all.
I heard that the sensors on the left side started to malfunction, and shortly after, heat began to build up in the left landing gear well.
The computers detected this and carried out a roll to the right to take the area out of the blowtorch effect taking place, and then they lost contact.
I cant think of a more horrendous thing to happen.
Also read on yahoo news that nasa fired its safety advisors a while back and one of the more senior ones resigned cos of the safety concerns they were all voicing.
Seems to me that nasa still havent learned that safety comes first, accountants should come a long way down the list.
Just a thought, but the shuttle mission could have been scrubbed if they had separated the tank and the boosters some time during launch, they could have safely come back in to land at that point, but once they gain orbit, theres no way back. A very bad thing to happen.
RIP Columbia and crew our thoughts are with you all.
I followed this on BBC News 24 and Sky News today.
Deltaf, what you said about events is right up to the bit after the Left Wheel Well, after that, more temperature sensors failed, then the left fuselage started to heat up, then excess drag was felt on the left wing, the flight computers tried to compensate by rolling to the left, then the Astronauts contacted Houston, at which point the shuttle broke up!
They were showing a video as well, it showed a very close in image of the initial stages and the shuttle looks like it was coming in sideways! I don't know much about re-entry etc, but it didn't look right, and a few seconds later it was breaking up!
Deltaf, what you said about events is right up to the bit after the Left Wheel Well, after that, more temperature sensors failed, then the left fuselage started to heat up, then excess drag was felt on the left wing, the flight computers tried to compensate by rolling to the left, then the Astronauts contacted Houston, at which point the shuttle broke up!
They were showing a video as well, it showed a very close in image of the initial stages and the shuttle looks like it was coming in sideways! I don't know much about re-entry etc, but it didn't look right, and a few seconds later it was breaking up!
Is there a web site for this video? I live in the states and I have not seen any video...
Also to note, NASA seems to have known about a tear in the left wing and tile sections for at least 2 days BEFORE this happened.
I would assume that we (the US) would not be the only ones concerned about his. Within 2 days somewere around this planet someone else could have launched a rescue flight. Also the "emergency" Russian craft is capable of 3 persons (5 in a pinch) so the rescuing ship didn't have to be so large.
Just my 2 cents...
Also to note, NASA seems to have known about a tear in the left wing and tile sections for at least 2 days BEFORE this happened.
I would assume that we (the US) would not be the only ones concerned about his. Within 2 days somewere around this planet someone else could have launched a rescue flight. Also the "emergency" Russian craft is capable of 3 persons (5 in a pinch) so the rescuing ship didn't have to be so large.
Just my 2 cents...
Joust and others are right, there was no docking mechanism on Columbia. NASA may have known the extent of the damage to the wing, I've seen pictures on the TV today of the damage to the wing.
Thing is, what could NASA do? They couldn't very well tell 'em what the problem was before they tried to enter the Earth's atmosphere? How do you tell someone there's a very large chance they're gonna die and very soon?!
But ... if they had landed in Florida without a hitch, would the extent of the damage and the dangers to the crew have ever been made public.?
Thing is, what could NASA do? They couldn't very well tell 'em what the problem was before they tried to enter the Earth's atmosphere? How do you tell someone there's a very large chance they're gonna die and very soon?!
But ... if they had landed in Florida without a hitch, would the extent of the damage and the dangers to the crew have ever been made public.?
US-GTR - unfortunatly there was no easy way "out" of the shuttle to another craft. There is no craft with an external air lock that could have been launched that quick AFAIK - and another shuttle would have taken weeks to get ready.
Hit the nail on the head Mikey - if that was the case it was a classic "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't" cases.
J
Hit the nail on the head Mikey - if that was the case it was a classic "dammed if you do, dammed if you don't" cases.
J
Here's the official answer to the question "could they have been rescued" - lots and lots of "if"'s in there...
www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts107_options_030202.html
www.space.com/missionlaunches/sts107_options_030202.html
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