Discussion
Hi all after a disagreement with my accountant he has be fired, but it leaves me in a situation where i will either need some easy to use software or an excel spreadsheet.
Has many of you run your own business's and good resources for excel accounts templates?? or can you recomend a decent software package to use...
The Problem
My Accountant was trying to chatge me an extra money for the same job this years work. which i do not think is unreasonable in moderate amounts but all i require from the accountant is, Payroll, Invoices, VAT, Tax etc. and he wanted to charge me an 2002/2003 + £3000 for 2003/2004 work fixed rate contract. a few hundred quid is fine but that much he can get stuffed. any help appriciated
Cheers
Steve
Has many of you run your own business's and good resources for excel accounts templates?? or can you recomend a decent software package to use...
The Problem
My Accountant was trying to chatge me an extra money for the same job this years work. which i do not think is unreasonable in moderate amounts but all i require from the accountant is, Payroll, Invoices, VAT, Tax etc. and he wanted to charge me an 2002/2003 + £3000 for 2003/2004 work fixed rate contract. a few hundred quid is fine but that much he can get stuffed. any help appriciated
Cheers
Steve
A simple alternative is Microsoft Money. My wife is the treasurer for a local church (smaller volume of transactions than yours I'm sure). These packages are cheap and fairly sophisticated. For her what I set up was all the recording in Money and then a grid type report which was exported to Excel and used an Excel model as the basis of the "proper" reports.
The auditor takes a copy of the Money files on disk and works away with that.
Don't know how good these cheap packages are on things like invoice numbering and VAT. We have the cheapo Money version and I know there's a more sophisticated version out there too. Quickbooks is also supposed to be pretty good but I've heard their tech support is getting expensive these days.
Edited to say - didn't spot the payroll requirements. Would not recommend something as simple as Money then
>> Edited by TJMurphy on Thursday 6th February 08:30
>> Edited by TJMurphy on Thursday 6th February 08:30
The auditor takes a copy of the Money files on disk and works away with that.
Don't know how good these cheap packages are on things like invoice numbering and VAT. We have the cheapo Money version and I know there's a more sophisticated version out there too. Quickbooks is also supposed to be pretty good but I've heard their tech support is getting expensive these days.
Edited to say - didn't spot the payroll requirements. Would not recommend something as simple as Money then
>> Edited by TJMurphy on Thursday 6th February 08:30
>> Edited by TJMurphy on Thursday 6th February 08:30
Accountants again.
If you are going to use a dedicated double entry accounting software package, I would strongly recommend getting some grounding in basic accounting principles. For example, find out what the specific accounting descrptions of the following definitions are -"Assets", "Liabilities", "Debtor", "Crditors", "Debits", "Credits" etc. In accountancy their meanings can be somewhat different to what the "non-accountant" might expect.
Whether a full double entry sysyem is appropriate for your business is related to the actual size of your operation. Smaller businesses who traditionally depended on simple cash books can probably get by on something like Excel but larger businesses will need something more capable.
Quick-Books and Sage are probably the most popular packages on the market. Sage is good but in my opinion it has grown too sophisticated for many smaller businesses and it has also become quite expensive (£400 plus), Quick-Books is more user friendly but it does use Amewrican accounting terminology which takes a bit of getting used to. It is also extremely date sensitive so you must always be aware of dates being entered on individual transactions as that will determine which accounting period these transactions will appear in. I've seem some businesses come a cropper on this score with Quick-Books.
To be honest, I've often felt that letting non book-keepers/accountants loose with a double entry book-kkeping software package is like letting a Cessna pilot take over the controls of a Tornado. The apparatus is very capable but the pilot may not understand all the system's capabilities.
If you are going to use a dedicated double entry accounting software package, I would strongly recommend getting some grounding in basic accounting principles. For example, find out what the specific accounting descrptions of the following definitions are -"Assets", "Liabilities", "Debtor", "Crditors", "Debits", "Credits" etc. In accountancy their meanings can be somewhat different to what the "non-accountant" might expect.
Whether a full double entry sysyem is appropriate for your business is related to the actual size of your operation. Smaller businesses who traditionally depended on simple cash books can probably get by on something like Excel but larger businesses will need something more capable.
Quick-Books and Sage are probably the most popular packages on the market. Sage is good but in my opinion it has grown too sophisticated for many smaller businesses and it has also become quite expensive (£400 plus), Quick-Books is more user friendly but it does use Amewrican accounting terminology which takes a bit of getting used to. It is also extremely date sensitive so you must always be aware of dates being entered on individual transactions as that will determine which accounting period these transactions will appear in. I've seem some businesses come a cropper on this score with Quick-Books.
To be honest, I've often felt that letting non book-keepers/accountants loose with a double entry book-kkeping software package is like letting a Cessna pilot take over the controls of a Tornado. The apparatus is very capable but the pilot may not understand all the system's capabilities.
Eric Mc said:To be honest, I've often felt that letting non book-keepers/accountants loose with a double entry book-kkeping software package is like letting a Cessna pilot take over the controls of a Tornado. The apparatus is very capable but the pilot may not understand all the system's capabilities.
It's a fair point. Unfortunately necessity will often dictate. I don't have an option but to do my own books. All I can do it use the package and get the once over from my accountant periodically to ensure I'm doing things correctly.
There is nothing too complicated about running a simple accounts/payroll package, that's just a rumour perpetuated by us accountants to keep the fee income rolling. You can learn the basics of book-keeping very quickly.
Whilst I haven't used Quickbooks, I have heard a lot of accountants recommend it. I agree about Sage getting too complicated. IMO selling features don't usually make a product easier to use.
If you go for it and need any assistance with stuff I'd be happy to help.
Whilst I haven't used Quickbooks, I have heard a lot of accountants recommend it. I agree about Sage getting too complicated. IMO selling features don't usually make a product easier to use.
If you go for it and need any assistance with stuff I'd be happy to help.
PetrolTed said: I've not had need for Quicken's tech support yet. There's a cheap bolt on for it that handles payroll too.
We use Quickbooks (2002 Pro) in house with the payroll facility too. Simple and easy for basic small company accounts. At the end of the year we just email the Quickbooks file to the accountants...
Cost is about £250 (inc Vat) and another £90ish (inc Vat) for the payroll.
Basil - far be if for me to try and somehow place accountancy on some mystical plane beyond the ken of mere mortals. However, in some 27 years working in the profession I have seen some absolute disasters where people have been let loose on accounting packages without adequate knowledge. It often boils down to the individuals themselves. Some people are just not suited to "book work". They would have made a mess of even a simple "Cash Book" sytem. It's just that they probably have been convinced by some over-enthusiastic software salesperson that a package containing all the bells and whictles is "just what they needed" when it patently was not.
Keeping your accountant "in the loop" throughout the year is a good idea - I think.
Keeping your accountant "in the loop" throughout the year is a good idea - I think.
Steve
Do you attend any local small busines forums / meetings? As well as canvassing opinion here on PH, other local businesses can be a good source of info on what/ who they use.
You will have to take some of these with a pinch of salt as there wil always be personality conflicts between some clients and some advisors
However if the same name (s'ware or advisor) keeps coming up as recommended it might be worth following up.
The ICAEW (chartered accountants) [url]www.icaew.co.uk[/url] should be able to provide you with a list of members close to you. I think that the other bodies would do the same (e.g. CIMA - management accountants etc). You do not say if you just want someone to check that your records are properly kept or advice too. That may help in determining what type of accountant you need.
I'm sorry I can't be too much help on specific accounting packages as my experience has come from the larger end of the client spectrum.
As Eric Mc says do let your accountant have a regular look at the books, it's much easier to correct anything as you go along than to try and get it all sorted out after the year end. Also potential penalties for incorrect VAT / NI are pretty bad, a regular review could pick up any issues early and help resolve the matter quickly.
HTH
Chris
Do you attend any local small busines forums / meetings? As well as canvassing opinion here on PH, other local businesses can be a good source of info on what/ who they use.
You will have to take some of these with a pinch of salt as there wil always be personality conflicts between some clients and some advisors
However if the same name (s'ware or advisor) keeps coming up as recommended it might be worth following up.
The ICAEW (chartered accountants) [url]www.icaew.co.uk[/url] should be able to provide you with a list of members close to you. I think that the other bodies would do the same (e.g. CIMA - management accountants etc). You do not say if you just want someone to check that your records are properly kept or advice too. That may help in determining what type of accountant you need.
I'm sorry I can't be too much help on specific accounting packages as my experience has come from the larger end of the client spectrum.
As Eric Mc says do let your accountant have a regular look at the books, it's much easier to correct anything as you go along than to try and get it all sorted out after the year end. Also potential penalties for incorrect VAT / NI are pretty bad, a regular review could pick up any issues early and help resolve the matter quickly.
HTH
Chris
Basil Brush said: There is nothing too complicated about running a simple accounts/payroll package, that's just a rumour perpetuated by us accountants to keep the fee income rolling. You can learn the basics of book-keeping very quickly.
Whilst I haven't used Quickbooks, I have heard a lot of accountants recommend it. I agree about Sage getting too complicated. IMO selling features don't usually make a product easier to use.
If you go for it and need any assistance with stuff I'd be happy to help.
The first thing I and all my colleagues did when we started training as accountants was go on a 1 or 2 week intensive bookkeeping course to learn double entry. As I recall (its a while ago now!) it was a bloody nightmare, as there was an exam at the end which you had to pass or your career was over before it began.
Bookkeeping is a skill, a bit like riding a bike. Once you can do it its easy. If you can't do it, it seems like the hardest thing in the world.
Eric Mc said: Basil - far be if for me to try and somehow place accountancy on some mystical plane beyond the ken of mere mortals. However, in some 27 years working in the profession I have seen some absolute disasters where people have been let loose on accounting packages without adequate knowledge. It often boils down to the individuals themselves. Some people are just not suited to "book work". They would have made a mess of even a simple "Cash Book" sytem. It's just that they probably have been convinced by some over-enthusiastic software salesperson that a package containing all the bells and whictles is "just what they needed" when it patently was not.
Keeping your accountant "in the loop" throughout the year is a good idea - I think.
I agree totally, having spent many hours trying to sort out complete disasters myself. Some people can't even balance a cheque book. All I meant was that with a bit of training anyone can do the basic book-keeping on a simple system. It's like anything else in life, if you care about it you'll do it properly.
griff2be said:
The first thing I and all my colleagues did when we started training as accountants was go on a 1 or 2 week intensive bookkeeping course to learn double entry. As I recall (its a while ago now!) it was a bloody nightmare, as there was an exam at the end which you had to pass or your career was over before it began.
Bookkeeping is a skill, a bit like riding a bike. Once you can do it its easy. If you can't do it, it seems like the hardest thing in the world.
Same here, but in a day or two the basics make sense. You don't actually need to fully understand double entry to maintain a basic accounting package. If the transactions are reasonably routine you can learn what to do for each type, and the double entry is done for you.
An alternative you might try is MYOB (Mind Your Own Business). I use it and find it more user friendly than Sage.
I find doing my own accounting/books is the best way. It does mean having to learn about the subject which in itself is not very entertaining, but as the purpose is to manage your own business the end result is worth it. Face it, managing your business efficiently is more interesting to you than it is to anyone else ie your accountant. Leave the accountant to check your work, suggest any tax saving strategies and deal with the Revenue. As you will be presenting him/her with accounts in their final form (essentially), the fees should be kept to a minimum.
I find doing my own accounting/books is the best way. It does mean having to learn about the subject which in itself is not very entertaining, but as the purpose is to manage your own business the end result is worth it. Face it, managing your business efficiently is more interesting to you than it is to anyone else ie your accountant. Leave the accountant to check your work, suggest any tax saving strategies and deal with the Revenue. As you will be presenting him/her with accounts in their final form (essentially), the fees should be kept to a minimum.
Gerry M - good point in theory. Accountants have the knack of expanding their work to suit the time allocated, irrespective of the quality of the data received from the client. However, this may not be all bad. If the accountant has to use up all his time doing the basic "donkey work", then by the time he has got a reasonable set of accounts together he has probably run out of his time budget and/or enthusiasm for the job and may not find himself in a position to offer more valuable tax and general business advice. So the accountant gets his fee but the client gets a minimal service. If the accountant has decent material to work with, the accounts can be finalised more quickly and time remaining may be much better used to the client's benefit. In both cases the fee ends up much the same but the value in the form of possible tax and cost savings is much more useful to the client.
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