Shock! Horror!! Congestion Charge WORKS!!!

[bruce fielding]

London is a better place to be today than it was this time last week, or this time last half term. And my fast track card came through a couple of weeks ago. And according to others at work the buses are running smoother and faster. To sum up... it's working.

The trouble is that this isn't 'News'. News has to be 'Bad'. My experience doesn't tell anyone that the government have got it wrong or that someone is to blame. For heaven's sake - do we always have to complain? Let's have a bit of positive reinforcement here, shall we?

I defy ANYONE to claim that the congestion charge has made things worse.

[mervynp]

I fear we may need the services of these people www.kemgard.com/ on this thread.

[dazren]

They can make it work even better by putting the cost upto £1,000 a day. Whilst we're at it do the same on fags and booze and let's "save" the NHS and think of the children.

DAZ
Waiting for this shite to hit Bristol where we don't have the alternative public transport that you Londoners seem to have.

[apache]

Some small business owners who cannot meet the costs might disagree on that one

[jhoneyball]

The congestion charging has worked?

Well yes, if you are naive enough to ignore:

1) its a half term
2) huge amounts of road works have magically been completed in the last 2 weeks
3) they have retimed the lights back to how they used to be

then yes, you too can believe that CC has been a miracle cure.

[hughjayteens]

I have noticed all of the above points jhoneyball mentions too!!

I even nipped home for lunch which I have never done before - gotta get your monies worth!!

Will reserve judgement until next week though...


I don't think anyone ever said it would make things worse did they?? I just think it is very unfair.

[bruce fielding]

You're all just proving my point!

Dazren - what's wrong with taxing stuff that kills you? You never know, reducing death and illness from cancer and heart disease might mean that funds CAN be diverted to other things in the NHS. And if public transport can't take the burden in other parts of the country, then it won't work, will it?

Apache - I run a small business. It's had no effect on mine. I haven't heard of anyone not coming to work because of the charge. Yes, the shops are emptier. Oh what a shame! They'll have to offer us better reasons to come then won't they - like not charging us fortunes for stuff we can get at half the price on the continent. Or rebating the charge if you spend lots of money (I hear this is already happening)


jhoneyball - as I said, it's better this half term than usual. The roadworks aren't organised by TfL - if they were we might be even better off. And the traffic lights were retimed more than three weeks ago by my experiences on Regent Street.

hughjayteens - what's unfair about it? Something had to be done. What would have been 'fair'? Someone somewhere has to pay - whether it be for improved public transport, better enforcement or whatever. This way the people that pay get the benefit. Makes sense to me.

Most of the doomsayers were bitching about it because it wouldn't work. It IS working. Now what? I know it's early days, but in a world full of doom and gloom we have something, just a little something, to be pleased about. Grab it with both hands, people!

[adrian jaye]

bruce fielding said: You're all just proving my point!

Most of the doomsayers were bitching about it because it wouldn't work. It IS working. Now what? I know it's early days, but in a world full of doom and gloom we have something, just a little something, to be pleased about. Grab it with both hands, people!

Bruce,

Everything, has a knock on effect.
I think its too early to tell for a start, plus all the other bits to "enhance" this , ie time of year, traffic lights, roadworks as described above.

When somone has to pay £1200 a year extra.

That money "has" to come from somewhere.

now take a couple of examples

1> driver a has to use there car, ordinary joe bloggs, pays £1200 quid, so cant afford to go on holiday, or buy any "Luxury goods", so ppl involved in holiday trade, and "luxury goods" loose out, multiply that by a couople of 1000

2> driver b, works for a small buisiness, pays £1200, out of his own pocket, yeah right, he passes the cost on

Some of the teachesr in inner london aint gonna be working there much longer.

it sucks, its sucks big time, and it only gets away with it cos we let it.

instead of poeple demonstrating against the war aganst iraq, could they not have demo's against this ????

we get isht on from on high in this great land of ours, by goverments, local coucils, and allsorts

where oh where is that hero out there is is gonna save us ???

wrere are you super TED !

[CarZee]

Much as you may hate to, you have to hand it to Ken - He's won today's battle hands down.

I don't remember anyone mentioning that it was half-term this week until the last few days.. He evidently knew that months ago & that was a bloody masterstroke on his part.. and there'll be some who are on half-term next week too so he's got two weeks of de facto staggering during the introductory period. Of course we all well knew that the traffic light timings and roadworks would be cleared up in time. And what about the number of people who gave up trying to pay their charge via phone or whatever today? Or those who don't have access to plastic to pay with - these people do exist.

Personally, I'd have taken a day of leave today if I were still working in London. Wonder how many others did that?

Let's see how the numbers look in a month or two. Let's see what happens once all the seasonal commuters who've gone back to the trains & tubes early this year want to get back in their cars come October.

Let's wait and see if scooter/motorcycle accidents rise significantly due to any number of thoroughly unprepared new bikers & scooterists turning to two wheels in order to eschew the tax.

Did anyone do the Blackwall Tunnel this morning? One news source said that was disproportionately busy today. Let's see how that works out.

There's no doubt Livingstone has pulled off something of a coup today, but let's not pretend that the war is won. Most of the predictions us doomsayers put forward cannot yet be tested. Weeks & months must go by before we'll know for sure.

In the meantime, the one thing that cheered me up today is that I don't live or work in that stinking hellhole anymore

[CarZee]

Adrian

I'm not sure where you're coming from exactly - would you be in favour of the charge if people who earned say less than £12k a year or worked in the public sector were exempt?

[spnracing]

CarZee said: Much as you may hate to, you have to hand it to Ken - He's won today's battle hands down.

Indeed he has. Its too early to judge anything yet but the first hurdle has been crossed.

I've registered to pay the charge by SMS text, it took 5 minutes on the excellent www.cclondon.com website and that was today - probably the busiest day of all.

Ken's a brave man and I hope he succeeds.

[CarZee]

How do you feel about those who will struggle to pay, SPN?

[dazren]

bruce fielding said: You're all just proving my point!

Dazren - what's wrong with taxing stuff that kills you? You never know, reducing death and illness from cancer and heart disease might mean that funds CAN be diverted to other things in the NHS. And if public transport can't take the burden in other parts of the country, then it won't work, will it?
.......
.......
Most of the doomsayers were bitching about it because it wouldn't work. It IS working. Now what? I know it's early days, but in a world full of doom and gloom we have something, just a little something, to be pleased about. Grab it with both hands, people!

Bruce.

There's nothing wrong with taxing stuff that kills people but you are missing the knock on effect and the whole picture.

When people drink and smoke they pay more taxes than a healthy living person. This is marvellous because when they kill themselves early, they forego their rights to pensions etc to the benefit of those that lead healthier lifestyles and pay less taxes, allowing more to be paid in pensions and more to be spent on the healthcare of those that live into old age. These self sacrificing benefactors of society should be applauded for their lifestyle choice, not overtaxed so they live too long.

Getting back on point, of course there is less traffic in London today, primarily for the reasons already outlined above. Less traffic could also be achieved by putting petrol up to £50 a gallon. The knock on effects of these policies however may well be catastrophic. In my local city, Bristol, the local council will not give a toss if the transport alternatives are in place. All they see is a net contribution to their coffers from this source of free income and choose to ignore the loss of customers to businesses and the resultant closure of businesses, on the basis that the empty property's business rates will have to be paid by the landlords anyway. THIS CANNOT BE RIGHT.

Although the aim of a congestion charge may be admirable, it may also be effective in achieving it's single goal, but at what cost overall to society?

DAZ

>> Edited by dazren on Monday 17th February 22:41

[350matt]

charging for congestion? Last time I heard it was free with every car/ bike/ bus/ tube/ plane/ walking down Oxford High st.
So where are all the people who haven't used their car today? On the already overcrowed buses, tubes et al? Or not at work due the aforementioned half term?
Like CarZee says give it a while, unfortunatly by that time we'll all being paying for the 'privilige' of driving to work, in the car you're probably in the process of paying for, while paying 800% taxation on the fuel you're putting in it.
You can vote on this new motoring tax at

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2749187.stm?dynamic_vote=ON#vote_TP_vote_congestion_charges_10_02_2003

Matt

[hughjayteens]

bruce fielding said:
hughjayteens - what's unfair about it? Something had to be done. What would have been 'fair'? Someone somewhere has to pay - whether it be for improved public transport, better enforcement or whatever. This way the people that pay get the benefit. Makes sense to me.

What is unfair is the fact that I don't actually have to pay it - The company I am working for pays all my expenses, as lots of companies who's employess/contractors drive to work in central london - The underground car park today was still full of jags and porkas etc, and seemed not one bit emptier than usual.

I live a few stops along the central line which is currently closed, and need to drive in as I carry equipment etc etc anyway.

It isn't people like me I think it is unfair on (and I am not trying to say I am rich, cos I am not!) but the people who do earn less cash and still need to drive into work.

Since moving house my average speed is 12.9mph, so I would hardly say anyone drives into London through choice or for fun - There is no viable alternative available to me so what do you suggest I do?

I think that something does need to be done, but this has been brought in with very little public consultation, and implemented unfairly - Why should Ministers who earn oodles be exempt from paying yet other lower paid people have to cough up?

[AlanN]

Bruce,

I feel that like most early-crowing cockerels you will also shut up quite early too.

Post again in 6 months.

Alan.

[minimax]

apache said: Some small business owners who cannot meet the costs might disagree on that one

also low paid workers - how can they justify a charge that hits the lowest paid hardest and call themselves socialist?

[adrian jaye]

CarZee said: Adrian

I'm not sure where you're coming from exactly - would you be in favour of the charge if people who earned say less than £12k a year or worked in the public sector were exempt?

I'm not in favour of it full stop !

We get taxed to the bollx in this country, motorists are an easy and usuall target.

What was also said was the "posh" cars in the centre of town today, of course if you can afford to live in town, drive a merc/bent/roller, then a fiver is nothing.

but to little miss.mini or student nurse.datsun sunny,

is another thing alltogether

[woof]

re paying on the website

My g/f stupidly parked the wrong side of marylebone road today - couldn't get the machine in the NCP to work. So I tried to pay online for her.

It took 3 attempts to get on the site - on a 1Mb line ! The site crashed my PC twice - at that was at 11pm

I doubt anyone using a 56k modem could even access it.

[P*Ting]

The whole thing with ministers not paying makes my blood boil!!!

They earn plenty, they get parking spaces, yet they don't see fit to pay a £5 charge they force on student nurses and the local butcher.

THAT STINKS!