Mosley: It's Complicated

[BunkMoreland]

Very good 1h32 Documentary on Max. Filmed before his death. And is obviously his side of the story. As they follow him around and interviewed him extensively

Its actually called "Mosley: It's Complicated" But the uploader has changed the name to avoid the auto takedown I guess.


Did a load of good.
Wasn't always right
Actually raced and won as a constructor in F1
Made some enemies along the way.
And successfully fked the News of the World which cant be a bad thing.
He clearly wanted to be remembered for the ncap 5 Star thing going worldwide


The only time he swears, with a smirk it has to be said, is in relation to Ron Dennis and the $100m fine. Though he does say it was Bernie who came up with the idea of a huge fine.

"complicated" is a good choice of word btw

[paulguitar]

I watched that when it came out. Very interesting.

[hondajack85]

Interesting person who had the baggage of his dad to contend with.
However in the 60s he was an active supported of the same views.I have seen clips in a documentary of a pretty youthful looking max handing out leaflets on a protest. They didnt seem to have the guts to say it was him when he was alive.
No reason someone cant say so now.
Still he ended up doing many useful things later.

[fooman]

hondajack85 said:

Interesting person who had the baggage of his dad to contend with.
However in the 60s he was an active supported of the same views.I have seen clips in a documentary of a pretty youthful looking max handing out leaflets on a protest. They didnt seem to have the guts to say it was him when he was alive.
No reason someone cant say so now.
Still he ended up doing many useful things later.

I'd like to think a person isn't held to the views they had decades ago, but it would have been helpful to say 'I was wrong' to clear it up.

[hondajack85]

Seems easy to find using an AI search. Nearly as easy as when it was a normal search lol.

https://youtu.be/RRS4NR_BZ1w

[paulguitar]

hondajack85 said:

Seems easy to find using an AI search. Nearly as easy as when it was a normal search lol.

https://youtu.be/RRS4NR_BZ1w

Love the dramatic music.

[StevieBee]

fooman said:

hondajack85 said:

Interesting person who had the baggage of his dad to contend with.
However in the 60s he was an active supported of the same views.I have seen clips in a documentary of a pretty youthful looking max handing out leaflets on a protest. They didnt seem to have the guts to say it was him when he was alive.
No reason someone cant say so now.
Still he ended up doing many useful things later.

I'd like to think a person isn't held to the views they had decades ago, but it would have been helpful to say 'I was wrong' to clear it up.

He didn't say so in the film but has said as much in various interviews and books in the past. From memory something about finding a cause as a young man and starting at those espoused by his parents before forming his own views gained from different experiences which opposed theirs. IIRC, he did start down the road of UK politics and hung his hat on the liberal/socialist hat stand but the baggage of his father remained a caravan he couldn't un-hitch.

[Derek Smith]

StevieBee said:

fooman said:

hondajack85 said:

Interesting person who had the baggage of his dad to contend with.
However in the 60s he was an active supported of the same views.I have seen clips in a documentary of a pretty youthful looking max handing out leaflets on a protest. They didnt seem to have the guts to say it was him when he was alive.
No reason someone cant say so now.
Still he ended up doing many useful things later.

I'd like to think a person isn't held to the views they had decades ago, but it would have been helpful to say 'I was wrong' to clear it up.

He didn't say so in the film but has said as much in various interviews and books in the past. From memory something about finding a cause as a young man and starting at those espoused by his parents before forming his own views gained from different experiences which opposed theirs. IIRC, he did start down the road of UK politics and hung his hat on the liberal/socialist hat stand but the baggage of his father remained a caravan he couldn't un-hitch.

In the words of Rice-Davies, 'He would say that, wouldn't he.' Ozzy M and his Mrs, the vile ex-Mitford woman, were admirers of Hitler and, according to many reports, she was intimate. Out of all the sons for Ozzy, he was the only one not to disassociate himself from extreme fascist beliefs. I'm not sure he did try unhitching caravans. The video of his sex exploits said much the same.

Many of the claims as to the work he did for safety were forced on him. The plans for improvements to F1 car safety had been submitted some time before the Senna crash. Whether the modified ones would have saved Senna is unknown of course. Mosely's conduct with regards the Benetton attempt to burn down the grandstand at the German GP should condemn the man. He was complainant, judge and jury. Nothing to worry us there. He met with Carman QC, the Benetton defence lawyer, at a hotel for drinkies pre discipline hearing. One of Carman's easiest cases as there were no prosecution witnesses, reportedly quite a shock to Titchmarsh, the FIA's brief. I can't think of any reason why Whiting wasn't called. He refused to answer questions on the matter post hearing, nor about Schumacher's skid wear not being punished.

Ecclestone didn't want Schumacher to be penalised, or the Benetton banned and, as Mosley was, according to Dominic Carman, and agent of Ecclestone. The council, dominated by Mosley, heard no evidence as Benetton pleaded guilty, and only the pleadings of Carman.

It was a clear case of endangering any in and above the pitlane, and the emergency crews. Mosley claimed there was 'confusion' as to who was to blame, this despite Benetton admitting they removed the filter to speed up their pitstops, some 12.5 seconds at certain tracks.

I thought Mosley would take the opportunity to get rid of Walkinshaw, seemingly someone he disliked intensely, but, for some reason, he didn't. I expect he knew where the bodies were buried.

He favoured specific teams and had a down on others. What he was great at, superb in fact, was in putting forward his account of incidents and many commentators followed his leads. Pit passes are hard to come by. His actions against Brundle showed he wanted to control the narrative and, although he had to back down, the implication of his threats was clear. Obey or else.

Mosley was a master of manipulation. I would not believe a word he has said.

I saw him at Brick Lane, I think, on one of his electioneering stints, with thugs around him. He was stopped in a van on his way to a fascist demo with a cargo of offensive weapons. The charge didn't quite fit the crime.

He was a blot on F1. For all the criticism of Balestra, he was, at least, a motor racing fan. We all thought any replacement couldn't be as bad, and we were right. Shame Mosley was worse. The 16 years he ran F1 were a sequence of seasons spoiled by internal politics.

If it can be found on the internet, Sylt's report on the Benetton cheating scandal is well worth reading.

And don't get me started on him attacking McLaren.

[bergclimber34]

I always found he came across as rather odd, and at the time of his court case, I was studyimg journalism, and we used to have guest talks from people in the media, and that story went a fair bit further than what they were allowed to release, so that taints your opinion of an otherwise faurly decent lawyer and clear enthusiast, who did some good at difficult times.

[hondajack85]

Derek Smith said:

StevieBee said:

fooman said:

hondajack85 said:

Interesting person who had the baggage of his dad to contend with.
However in the 60s he was an active supported of the same views.I have seen clips in a documentary of a pretty youthful looking max handing out leaflets on a protest. They didnt seem to have the guts to say it was him when he was alive.
No reason someone cant say so now.
Still he ended up doing many useful things later.

I'd like to think a person isn't held to the views they had decades ago, but it would have been helpful to say 'I was wrong' to clear it up.

He didn't say so in the film but has said as much in various interviews and books in the past. From memory something about finding a cause as a young man and starting at those espoused by his parents before forming his own views gained from different experiences which opposed theirs. IIRC, he did start down the road of UK politics and hung his hat on the liberal/socialist hat stand but the baggage of his father remained a caravan he couldn't un-hitch.

In the words of Rice-Davies, 'He would say that, wouldn't he.' Ozzy M and his Mrs, the vile ex-Mitford woman, were admirers of Hitler and, according to many reports, she was intimate. Out of all the sons for Ozzy, he was the only one not to disassociate himself from extreme fascist beliefs. I'm not sure he did try unhitching caravans. The video of his sex exploits said much the same.

Many of the claims as to the work he did for safety were forced on him. The plans for improvements to F1 car safety had been submitted some time before the Senna crash. Whether the modified ones would have saved Senna is unknown of course. Mosely's conduct with regards the Benetton attempt to burn down the grandstand at the German GP should condemn the man. He was complainant, judge and jury. Nothing to worry us there. He met with Carman QC, the Benetton defence lawyer, at a hotel for drinkies pre discipline hearing. One of Carman's easiest cases as there were no prosecution witnesses, reportedly quite a shock to Titchmarsh, the FIA's brief. I can't think of any reason why Whiting wasn't called. He refused to answer questions on the matter post hearing, nor about Schumacher's skid wear not being punished.

Ecclestone didn't want Schumacher to be penalised, or the Benetton banned and, as Mosley was, according to Dominic Carman, and agent of Ecclestone. The council, dominated by Mosley, heard no evidence as Benetton pleaded guilty, and only the pleadings of Carman.

It was a clear case of endangering any in and above the pitlane, and the emergency crews. Mosley claimed there was 'confusion' as to who was to blame, this despite Benetton admitting they removed the filter to speed up their pitstops, some 12.5 seconds at certain tracks.

I thought Mosley would take the opportunity to get rid of Walkinshaw, seemingly someone he disliked intensely, but, for some reason, he didn't. I expect he knew where the bodies were buried.

He favoured specific teams and had a down on others. What he was great at, superb in fact, was in putting forward his account of incidents and many commentators followed his leads. Pit passes are hard to come by. His actions against Brundle showed he wanted to control the narrative and, although he had to back down, the implication of his threats was clear. Obey or else.

Mosley was a master of manipulation. I would not believe a word he has said.

I saw him at Brick Lane, I think, on one of his electioneering stints, with thugs around him. He was stopped in a van on his way to a fascist demo with a cargo of offensive weapons. The charge didn't quite fit the crime.

He was a blot on F1. For all the criticism of Balestra, he was, at least, a motor racing fan. We all thought any replacement couldn't be as bad, and we were right. Shame Mosley was worse. The 16 years he ran F1 were a sequence of seasons spoiled by internal politics.

If it can be found on the internet, Sylt's report on the Benetton cheating scandal is well worth reading.

And don't get me started on him attacking McLaren.

Thanks for your insight Derek.
I ponder why has there not been more said about Mosley that puff pieces,but then remember Bernie the fan of dictators is still around.
Maybe we will get some more interesting stories one day.

Edited by hondajack85 on Tuesday 13th January 13:22

[PhilAsia]

He always struck me as a sinister man, from sinister stock - nothing has ever impacted that view...

[Sandpit Steve]

bergclimber34 said:

I always found he came across as rather odd, and at the time of his court case, I was studyimg journalism, and we used to have guest talks from people in the media, and that story went a fair bit further than what they were allowed to release, so that taints your opinion of an otherwise faurly decent lawyer and clear enthusiast, who did some good at difficult times.

I think I’m in the camp of him making some notable achievements in the field of car safety, especially racing car safety with FIA standards, but was a very complex character behind the curtain - until a newspaper managed to get a camera behind that curtain, then we saw not only his personality exposed but also his ruthlessness to go after those he perceived had slighted him. The NOTW story was substantially true.

[BunkMoreland]

Sandpit Steve said:

.. The NOTW story was substantially true.

The Nazi theme was not proven.

But ironically, even if he did have a nazi theme. Clearly they aren't ACTUALLY nazis. And they aren't actually doing any harm dressing up how they want. It's not illegal. Its no different really to actors playing a role. Christoph Waltz isn't a nazi is he

And he was right, no ones sex life is up for public consumption if everyone involved has consented. The only story was "man pays professional escorts for a BDSM session" Nothing he did was damaging to his ability to work for the FIA. So where's the public interest angle?

Its interesting in the documentary its prize A knob James O Brien making the case for intrusion into private lives. That does make me immediately take up the counter view just because he's a wker!



Remember the NOTW hacked Millie Dowlers phone. I actually went to school with someone latterly convicted of phone hacking whilst at another rag. (He was a bit of a bully back then!) They can all rot in hell. I'll defend MM for this.


I knew Derek would chime in with his pov.

[bergclimber34]

From what I was told, saw, and shown evidence of from a NOTW journo at the time it was more than true, sorry to rain on your parade.

The very reason this guy was invited to come and talk to a grup of potential journalists was to talk about stuff like this, Maxine Carr, etc etc, what you can say, legally, and in terms of journalism law and interfering with privacy. Every journo in England with their salt knew Carrs nww name, where she lived etc, but were legally bound to not reveal, same as Venables etc, there is a lot you can not publish

They went too far against a very well backed lawyer and lost, but the story itself was very, very true Im afraid, I cannot say a lot more sadly

[DeejRC]

There hasn’t been more said about one article because, well, nobody cares.
Secondly, having to wait for interesting stories…er, no. All the Max M stories are already known by quite a lot of ppl. It’s just that of that generation who are left…nobody is interested in raking over old coals and fighting old stories. Not even Ron.

[Purosangue]

Derek Smith said:

StevieBee said:

fooman said:

hondajack85 said:

Interesting person who had the baggage of his dad to contend with.
However in the 60s he was an active supported of the same views.I have seen clips in a documentary of a pretty youthful looking max handing out leaflets on a protest. They didnt seem to have the guts to say it was him when he was alive.
No reason someone cant say so now.
Still he ended up doing many useful things later.

I'd like to think a person isn't held to the views they had decades ago, but it would have been helpful to say 'I was wrong' to clear it up.

He didn't say so in the film but has said as much in various interviews and books in the past. From memory something about finding a cause as a young man and starting at those espoused by his parents before forming his own views gained from different experiences which opposed theirs. IIRC, he did start down the road of UK politics and hung his hat on the liberal/socialist hat stand but the baggage of his father remained a caravan he couldn't un-hitch.

In the words of Rice-Davies, 'He would say that, wouldn't he.' Ozzy M and his Mrs, the vile ex-Mitford woman, were admirers of Hitler and, according to many reports, she was intimate. Out of all the sons for Ozzy, he was the only one not to disassociate himself from extreme fascist beliefs. I'm not sure he did try unhitching caravans. The video of his sex exploits said much the same.

Many of the claims as to the work he did for safety were forced on him. The plans for improvements to F1 car safety had been submitted some time before the Senna crash. Whether the modified ones would have saved Senna is unknown of course. Mosely's conduct with regards the Benetton attempt to burn down the grandstand at the German GP should condemn the man. He was complainant, judge and jury. Nothing to worry us there. He met with Carman QC, the Benetton defence lawyer, at a hotel for drinkies pre discipline hearing. One of Carman's easiest cases as there were no prosecution witnesses, reportedly quite a shock to Titchmarsh, the FIA's brief. I can't think of any reason why Whiting wasn't called. He refused to answer questions on the matter post hearing, nor about Schumacher's skid wear not being punished.

Ecclestone didn't want Schumacher to be penalised, or the Benetton banned and, as Mosley was, according to Dominic Carman, and agent of Ecclestone. The council, dominated by Mosley, heard no evidence as Benetton pleaded guilty, and only the pleadings of Carman.

It was a clear case of endangering any in and above the pitlane, and the emergency crews. Mosley claimed there was 'confusion' as to who was to blame, this despite Benetton admitting they removed the filter to speed up their pitstops, some 12.5 seconds at certain tracks.

I thought Mosley would take the opportunity to get rid of Walkinshaw, seemingly someone he disliked intensely, but, for some reason, he didn't. I expect he knew where the bodies were buried.

He favoured specific teams and had a down on others. What he was great at, superb in fact, was in putting forward his account of incidents and many commentators followed his leads. Pit passes are hard to come by. His actions against Brundle showed he wanted to control the narrative and, although he had to back down, the implication of his threats was clear. Obey or else.

Mosley was a master of manipulation. I would not believe a word he has said.

I saw him at Brick Lane, I think, on one of his electioneering stints, with thugs around him. He was stopped in a van on his way to a fascist demo with a cargo of offensive weapons. The charge didn't quite fit the crime.

He was a blot on F1. For all the criticism of Balestra, he was, at least, a motor racing fan. We all thought any replacement couldn't be as bad, and we were right. Shame Mosley was worse. The 16 years he ran F1 were a sequence of seasons spoiled by internal politics.

If it can be found on the internet, Sylt's report on the Benetton cheating scandal is well worth reading.

And don't get me started on him attacking McLaren.

it wasn't Mclaren though , it was Ron Denis

£1,Million Fine to McLaren ...............and £99 million for Ron Denis being a

[bergclimber34]

The point was missed as usual, at the time it was big news, and there was a lot more to it that was unpublished for various reasons.

[anonymous_user]

BunkMoreland said:

The Nazi theme was not proven.

Luftwaffe & striped prisoner uniforms speaking german & german accents ...yeah, nothing Nazi about that

why on earth the Judge couldn't see the link is anyones guess

[Siao]

Derek Smith said:

StevieBee said:

fooman said:

hondajack85 said:

Interesting person who had the baggage of his dad to contend with.
However in the 60s he was an active supported of the same views.I have seen clips in a documentary of a pretty youthful looking max handing out leaflets on a protest. They didnt seem to have the guts to say it was him when he was alive.
No reason someone cant say so now.
Still he ended up doing many useful things later.

I'd like to think a person isn't held to the views they had decades ago, but it would have been helpful to say 'I was wrong' to clear it up.

He didn't say so in the film but has said as much in various interviews and books in the past. From memory something about finding a cause as a young man and starting at those espoused by his parents before forming his own views gained from different experiences which opposed theirs. IIRC, he did start down the road of UK politics and hung his hat on the liberal/socialist hat stand but the baggage of his father remained a caravan he couldn't un-hitch.

In the words of Rice-Davies, 'He would say that, wouldn't he.' Ozzy M and his Mrs, the vile ex-Mitford woman, were admirers of Hitler and, according to many reports, she was intimate. Out of all the sons for Ozzy, he was the only one not to disassociate himself from extreme fascist beliefs. I'm not sure he did try unhitching caravans. The video of his sex exploits said much the same.

Many of the claims as to the work he did for safety were forced on him. The plans for improvements to F1 car safety had been submitted some time before the Senna crash. Whether the modified ones would have saved Senna is unknown of course. Mosely's conduct with regards the Benetton attempt to burn down the grandstand at the German GP should condemn the man. He was complainant, judge and jury. Nothing to worry us there. He met with Carman QC, the Benetton defence lawyer, at a hotel for drinkies pre discipline hearing. One of Carman's easiest cases as there were no prosecution witnesses, reportedly quite a shock to Titchmarsh, the FIA's brief. I can't think of any reason why Whiting wasn't called. He refused to answer questions on the matter post hearing, nor about Schumacher's skid wear not being punished.

Ecclestone didn't want Schumacher to be penalised, or the Benetton banned and, as Mosley was, according to Dominic Carman, and agent of Ecclestone. The council, dominated by Mosley, heard no evidence as Benetton pleaded guilty, and only the pleadings of Carman.

It was a clear case of endangering any in and above the pitlane, and the emergency crews. Mosley claimed there was 'confusion' as to who was to blame, this despite Benetton admitting they removed the filter to speed up their pitstops, some 12.5 seconds at certain tracks.

I thought Mosley would take the opportunity to get rid of Walkinshaw, seemingly someone he disliked intensely, but, for some reason, he didn't. I expect he knew where the bodies were buried.

He favoured specific teams and had a down on others. What he was great at, superb in fact, was in putting forward his account of incidents and many commentators followed his leads. Pit passes are hard to come by. His actions against Brundle showed he wanted to control the narrative and, although he had to back down, the implication of his threats was clear. Obey or else.

Mosley was a master of manipulation. I would not believe a word he has said.

I saw him at Brick Lane, I think, on one of his electioneering stints, with thugs around him. He was stopped in a van on his way to a fascist demo with a cargo of offensive weapons. The charge didn't quite fit the crime.

He was a blot on F1. For all the criticism of Balestra, he was, at least, a motor racing fan. We all thought any replacement couldn't be as bad, and we were right. Shame Mosley was worse. The 16 years he ran F1 were a sequence of seasons spoiled by internal politics.

If it can be found on the internet, Sylt's report on the Benetton cheating scandal is well worth reading.

And don't get me started on him attacking McLaren.

The fuel filter removal was dealt badly by Mosley indeed. But it wasn't cheating and endangering the people in the pitlane exactly, as the filter removal did not cause the spillage.

The removal was agreed between Intertechnique and Ligier beforehand (Larousse had also done it as it transpired), it wasn't something new, the filter's own manufacturer had given permission and even instructions on how to do it (and apparently Charlie had also given permission). Benetton's mistake was not going through the official channels (they had to ask for permission from the manufacturer via the FIA to get the filter removed, which they didn't do and that's on them). This is because of Flavio had shares in Ligier and so had inner knowledge of the fact that the filters could be removed safely and seemingly legally, he just didn't bother asking. Is this cheating? I guess it is down to anyone's point of view, it is certainly naughty.

The issue that caused the fire was a tolerance problem, reportedly McLaren had the same issue in a pit stop simulation before the season started. The particle that caused the rig to stick was too small to be stopped by the filter anyway. The 12.5 figure you mentioned is possibly the 12.5% faster fuel delivery without the filter, which they estimated that it would save them around a second in a pit stop. Toet (who has a series of articles about his time in Benetton) actually mentioned that it was less than a second per pit stop.

The FIA ignored the reports from the filter manufacturer and an independent consultant commissioned by the team and made an offer to Benetton in that meeting that if Benetton admitted to removing the filter, they would be given a fine and let them proceed with the season. The FIA wouldn't lose any face either so it was a win win. The bad thing is that they all blamed a sole junior engineer with removing it without permission from the team manager, so no problem at all. It is also telling that Intertechnique revised their coupling that had the tolerance problem quietly soon after, pointing that they knew there was an issue with their equipment.

It was handled badly all around actually, my theory is that because of the spectacular fire and following the whole safety dance after Senna's death, they had to be seen to act on things (rightly so). But I am not really in agreement that it was Benetton's doing that caused a fire and endangered the people in the pitlane. In fact, the valve sticking open and causing fires continued in 1995, even after the revised gear.

[StevieBee]

anonymous_user said:

BunkMoreland said:

The Nazi theme was not proven.

Luftwaffe & striped prisoner uniforms speaking german & german accents ...yeah, nothing Nazi about that

why on earth the Judge couldn't see the link is anyones guess

As BunkMoreland says, the whole Nazi thing is irrelevant in the context it was used. In itself it is not illegal. Public intrigue it maybe but not public interest.