Turning left from right hand lane - solve an argument

[FWIW]

Apparently, because the signs don't say you can't, you can...

Idiot UK Drivers on Facebook:

https://www.facebook.com/Idiotukdriversmedia/posts...

[semisane]

had a quick look at this.

whilst I would expect the black car in the right hand lane to turn right, if there is no signage to the contrary, I see no reason why the black car cannot turn left

red cars fault for not checking lane clear before moving into the right hand lane after turning left ?

[Rozzers]

There are no signs or road markings to prevent or even advise the use of the outer lane.

Looking at the road Insuspect it was done to get into the right hand lane immediately round the corner to turn. In fact I suspect the car may have been behind him in the left lane but turned into the outer lane on the left.

[FWIW]

semisane said:

if there is no signage to the contrary, I see no reason why the black car cannot turn left

Would you do that at a roundabout?

[semisane]

FWIW said:

Would you do that at a roundabout?

Give way to the right - its specified in the highway code so signage not always required (but is normally present)

I think this is a different situation but happy to be corrected.

185
When reaching the roundabout you should :
give priority to traffic approaching from your right, unless directed otherwise by signs, road markings or traffic lights

Edited by semisane on Wednesday 9th June 17:05

[Riley Blue]

FWIW said:

semisane said:

if there is no signage to the contrary, I see no reason why the black car cannot turn left

Would you do that at a roundabout?

From the right hand lane of a dual carriageway entering a roundabout where else would you turn?

[SuperPav]

FWIW said:

semisane said:

if there is no signage to the contrary, I see no reason why the black car cannot turn left

Would you do that at a roundabout?

Turn left from the right hand lane of a roundabout from one two-lane road onto another two-lane road? Yes, people do that all the time particularly in heavy traffic, unless there are markings to the contrary.

In this particular instance I wouldn't expect a car from the right lane to turn left (or from the left lane to turn right), however if it's one of those roads where in rush hour traffic most of the the flow is going in the same direction, then I wouldn't deem it unreasonable that both lanes are turning left for example.

Where there are no markings or signs prohibiting it, ultimately it's down to the rule of "don't drive into the space which is already occupied by another vehicle" so regardless of expectations, red car shouldn't assume entitlement and just move across to the other lane mid turn without checking there's another car (or cyclist or pedestrian) there.

[ashenfie]

If you look really closely and correct me if I am wrong, but they are turning to on a 2 lane ring road. So there is no right turn option here. Therefore the black car has to turn right and the red car has changed lane without looking.

[semisane]

ashenfie said:

If you look really closely and correct me if I am wrong, but they are turning to on a 2 lane ring road. So there is no right turn option here. Therefore the black car has to turn right and the red car has changed lane without looking.

Yep

[Muddle238]

FWIW said:

semisane said:

if there is no signage to the contrary, I see no reason why the black car cannot turn left

Would you do that at a roundabout?

This isn’t a roundabout, so the rules of roundabouts aren’t really relevant.

I’ve had a look on streetview, there are no arrows painted on the road to dictate whether either lane is left or right turn only, nor are there any signs on the approach stating the same thing. As such, yes you can turn left from the right hand lane without contravening any road markings or signage. So it’s legal.

However, whether it’s sensible or not is another matter. I would say no, it’s not sensible turning left from the right lane there, purely for the reason that this question has come about. I would rather see that junction re-marked, left hand lane for left turn only and right hand lane for right turn only, that way you’ve removed all ambiguity and minimised the risk of collisions.

As it stands though, the red car was in the left hand lane to begin with, however while travelling through the junction has moved into the right hand lane leaving the junction and as a result collided with the black car, who was maintaining the right hand lane through the junction. It would only take one driver driving defensively to have avoided the whole thing; red car to maintain lane and black car to avoid turning left from the right lane. Also potentially the black car shouldn’t move alongside the red car during a turn, as the red driver is looking the other way; having assumed the black car turned right, the red car driver has lost situational awareness, coupled with not checking it was clear then changed lanes straight into another vehicle.

Red car legally at fault, neither driver driving defensively.

[Wills2]

Most of these who is right/wrong incidents could be avoided by simple observation, looking at the overhead shot it's clear that a car in the right hand lane has the ability to turn left so if you're on the inside check your mirrors/look over your shoulder before coming across to the other lane as you turn left.

People who drive with a sense of "I'm in the right" generally end up at some point in an accident that could have been avoided.

[Bennet]

I'd say 90% the black car's fault because he is the one doing something perverse and unexpected, even though it may not be specifically prohibited by signage. He should have proceeded with great care if he wanted to do something random like that.

[Psycho Warren]

I would say in simple terms the red car should have looked before changing lanes, be it part of the turn or after the turn. A few similar junctions like that around here, some with arrows some without. Even the ones with arrows you still get morons swerving from one lane to the other oblivious to drivers in the other lane, so looking is key.

[Bennet]

Wills2 said:

it's clear that a car in the right hand lane has the ability to turn left

Would you say that the car in the left lane also has the ability to turn right? I can't really see why not... It seems amazing there aren't crashes here multiple times per day if that's the case.

[FWIW]

[Fastdruid]

Bennet said:

Wills2 said:

it's clear that a car in the right hand lane has the ability to turn left

Would you say that the car in the left lane also has the ability to turn right? I can't really see why not... It seems amazing there aren't crashes here multiple times per day if that's the case.

Technically, yes.

If you think of it from a different perspective it is akin to a "two lane" roundabout with a two lane exit. Someone _could_ keep going round in the left most lane while someone from the right lane on the roundabout exits to end up in the right lane on the exit.

I have it a *lot* on a roundabout near me where I will often use the superior power of the mighty turbo bus to get off the lights smartly from the right hand lane and exit...but *have* to expect unless I'm "first off" the lights that the person in the left lane _may_ continue round (and without signalling). I always either ensure I'm fully past or hang behind until they commit. Never ever turn into the exit alongside because you have to expect they won't see you.

[FWIW]

I think the crash is arguably red's fault because after he'd rounded the junction he was in the left lane and then switched to the right, hitting black. Red should have gone straight to the right lane. Also, using the logic that there are no longer any arrows, it wouldn't be unreasonable for red to have gone straight on...
But I can't get my head around why you'd turn left from the right hand lane?

Edited by FWIW on Wednesday 9th June 18:03

[Killer2005]

ashenfie said:

If you look really closely and correct me if I am wrong, but they are turning to on a 2 lane ring road. So there is no right turn option here. Therefore the black car has to turn right and the red car has changed lane without looking.

From streetview it shows traffic going right so it would suggest it should be a right turn lane.


However there doesn't appear to be any specific signage showing to not turn left.

It potentially looks like the red car has possibly gone straight into the right hand lane during the turn. I'm going for red car mainly at fault for poor observation, but black car aslo at fault for pulling that move.

[Andy665]

If there were no signs / lane markings indicating that you cannot turn left and you are turning onto a two lane stretch of road I would assume that you could turn left from both lanes.

Why did the driver in the left hand lane not turn left into the inner lane rather than move straight out in to the outer lane?

[Killer2005]

FWIW said:

That clears that up then