Emissions Based Parking Permits
Discussion
Looks like Bath is planning on bringing in emissions-based residents' parking permits. It will be interesting to see how they play this, I can see it being very effective if your car is lumped into the £400/year band and you're already paying £500+ year road-tax depending on age. Could cause mayhem if you're living close enough to a non-permit holders street. Will suddenly find a lot of cars being left there, even though the parking on these streets is dire already.
https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/sunday-charges...
SomersetLive said:
In Bath, permits currently cost £100 a year for the first and £160 for the second, while in Keynsham residents pay £40 and £50 respectively.
The council says some residents will see a significant rise in the cost of their permits - depending on the vehicle’s emissions, they will cost £50 per year or as much as £400 for the worst polluting diesels.
However, in a trial running until March, drivers of zero-emission vehicles will be offered permits for just £10 on a first-come, first-served basis.
Other permit costs are also set to increase over the next three years.
Scroll down for the quotes. The council says some residents will see a significant rise in the cost of their permits - depending on the vehicle’s emissions, they will cost £50 per year or as much as £400 for the worst polluting diesels.
However, in a trial running until March, drivers of zero-emission vehicles will be offered permits for just £10 on a first-come, first-served basis.
Other permit costs are also set to increase over the next three years.
https://www.somersetlive.co.uk/news/sunday-charges...
It is clear to me the councils and governments are slowly but surely making like uncomfortable for the average ICE car owner. It seems to me that the combination of ULEZ, fuel costs, road tax and parking permit changes like these are going to kill off the older, larger engined ICE cars. These plans are obviously going to get tougher and more expensive in future and more and more ULEZ zones and permit plans like this will be created.
I think in future we will effectively have three groups of cars.
1)Electric cars
2)1 litre petrol cars
3)Richer drivers with big SUVs who can easily afford the cost and will continue to drive them until they are literally banned.
I wonder if we will get to a stage in future where you won't actually be able to get a parking permit if your vehicle is over a certain emissions level?
I think in future we will effectively have three groups of cars.
1)Electric cars
2)1 litre petrol cars
3)Richer drivers with big SUVs who can easily afford the cost and will continue to drive them until they are literally banned.
I wonder if we will get to a stage in future where you won't actually be able to get a parking permit if your vehicle is over a certain emissions level?
I struggle with this, as I struggled with the smoking ban. On one hand I know we need to do something about traffic, emissions, pressure on parking spaces, the ever spiraling size and weight of vehicles undoing good work on improving efficiency, and part of that has to be "encouraging" people out of oversized, overweight, overpowered cars. Driving you and maybe 2 kids around in a Range Rover in a city like Bath is a preposterous thing to do.
On the other hand "f
k you, I won't do what you tell me"
On the other hand "f
k you, I won't do what you tell me"Joey Deacon said:
I think in future we will effectively have three groups of cars.
1)Electric cars
2)1 litre petrol cars
3)Richer drivers with big SUVs who can easily afford the cost and will continue to drive them until they are literally banned.
I wonder if we will get to a stage in future where you won't actually be able to get a parking permit if your vehicle is over a certain emissions level?
Totally agree about the three groups, the time frame for this is what's most interesting to me. How long before it becomes a reality. I can see your last point becoming true as well, no issuing of permits unless you have a zero-emissions vehicle. Could also see city-center zones being banned for all vehicles except zero emissions. No £10 emissions tax to enter, just straight up banned from entering unless 0g/km, or whatever they decide. 1)Electric cars
2)1 litre petrol cars
3)Richer drivers with big SUVs who can easily afford the cost and will continue to drive them until they are literally banned.
I wonder if we will get to a stage in future where you won't actually be able to get a parking permit if your vehicle is over a certain emissions level?
I haven't really paid much attention to the new ULEZ zone in London as it doesn't effect me, but I assume anybody living within it who has a non Euro 6 Diesel or non Euro 4 Petrol has had to get rid of it?
I literally did not realise that the following also have Clear Air Zones
Bath (Not for cars)
Birmingham (Same rules as London)
Portsmouth (charging starts on 29 November 2021) (Same rules as London)
So far my car, a Euro 4 diesel fails the Birmingham and London rules and will fail the Portsmouth ones starting next month.
I literally did not realise that the following also have Clear Air Zones
Bath (Not for cars)
Birmingham (Same rules as London)
Portsmouth (charging starts on 29 November 2021) (Same rules as London)
So far my car, a Euro 4 diesel fails the Birmingham and London rules and will fail the Portsmouth ones starting next month.
Yeah, I drive a Euro 3 Volvo so quite lucky to have avoided this, the city only charges for commercial vehicles. My girlfriend lives on the edge and is luckily not on a permit holders street. Bristol is also bringing in a Clean Air Zone next year which encompasses most of the city centre, including the largest and best multi-story car park for city-centre shopping. As StickleBack said, this needs to happen and it's great that is, but boy does it suck!
Joey Deacon said:
I haven't really paid much attention to the new ULEZ zone in London as it doesn't effect me, but I assume anybody living within it who has a non Euro 6 Diesel or non Euro 4 Petrol has had to get rid of it?
I literally did not realise that the following also have Clear Air Zones
Bath (Not for cars)
Birmingham (Same rules as London)
Portsmouth (charging starts on 29 November 2021) (Same rules as London)
So far my car, a Euro 4 diesel fails the Birmingham and London rules and will fail the Portsmouth ones starting next month.
Just a quick note to point out the Portsmouth ULEZ is not targeting privately owned cars and vans, just the commercial stuff. I literally did not realise that the following also have Clear Air Zones
Bath (Not for cars)
Birmingham (Same rules as London)
Portsmouth (charging starts on 29 November 2021) (Same rules as London)
So far my car, a Euro 4 diesel fails the Birmingham and London rules and will fail the Portsmouth ones starting next month.
https://www.portsmouth.gov.uk/2021/06/17/launch-of...
(The fact that the area covered by the ULEZ follows the path of the ferry and container ship routes into the city centre is entirely coincidental)
It would be nice to think they're rolling out on street EV chargers to go along with this but that's probably wishful thinking.
Joey Deacon said:
So far my car, a Euro 4 diesel fails the Birmingham and London rules and will fail the Portsmouth ones starting next month.
I think Leeds as well.Feels a bit unfair. How much crap does a 20 year old diesel car emit into the atmosphere when it is parked outside someone's home, compared to an electric car, also parked in the same street?
I get the road tax penalties, gradually 'encouraging' us all to switch to greener alternatives over time. The road tax allows us to use those cars, and pollute the environment as we go - thereby we incur a charge for that - but to be penalised on what is kind of a public driveway seems really unfair - particularly to those who may not be able to afford to switch.
Feels like another example of raising local taxes under the guise of being 'green'.
I get the road tax penalties, gradually 'encouraging' us all to switch to greener alternatives over time. The road tax allows us to use those cars, and pollute the environment as we go - thereby we incur a charge for that - but to be penalised on what is kind of a public driveway seems really unfair - particularly to those who may not be able to afford to switch.
Feels like another example of raising local taxes under the guise of being 'green'.
Joey Deacon said:
It is clear to me the councils and governments are slowly but surely making like uncomfortable for the average ICE car owner. It seems to me that the combination of ULEZ, fuel costs, road tax and parking permit changes like these are going to kill off the older, larger engined ICE cars. These plans are obviously going to get tougher and more expensive in future and more and more ULEZ zones and permit plans like this will be created.
I think in future we will effectively have three groups of cars.
1)Electric cars
2)1 litre petrol cars
3)Richer drivers with big SUVs who can easily afford the cost and will continue to drive them until they are literally banned.
I wonder if we will get to a stage in future where you won't actually be able to get a parking permit if your vehicle is over a certain emissions level?
Parking permit is going to be the least of your worries. Unless you have a zero emissions vehicle now, or in the future, it doesn't matter how much money you have, you might not have the freedom to drive it wherever you like, whenever you like.I think in future we will effectively have three groups of cars.
1)Electric cars
2)1 litre petrol cars
3)Richer drivers with big SUVs who can easily afford the cost and will continue to drive them until they are literally banned.
I wonder if we will get to a stage in future where you won't actually be able to get a parking permit if your vehicle is over a certain emissions level?
Councils are going to be looking at the aggressive plans by London's mayor and seeing how they can copy them in their own city. I think especially with COP26 round the corner, and everyone jumping on the NetZero bandwagon to look "green", restrictions (and the associated money making penalty schemes/taxes) are going to evolve faster than we anticipate.
"Mr Khan said: 'If it’s the case, a few months after we have done the expansion (of ULEZ), there are still parts of London outside the North Circular/South Circular within Greater London that require additional help, we will micro-target those areas.'
'Micro-targeting' could involve only allowing zero-emission vehicles to use certain roads at peak times, as has been introduced by the City of London Corporation at Barbican and Hackney council in Shoreditch."
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/ulez-exp...
raspy said:
Parking permit is going to be the least of your worries. Unless you have a zero emissions vehicle now, or in the future, it doesn't matter how much money you have, you might not have the freedom to drive it wherever you like, whenever you like.
Councils are going to be looking at the aggressive plans by London's mayor and seeing how they can copy them in their own city. I think especially with COP26 round the corner, and everyone jumping on the NetZero bandwagon to look "green", restrictions (and the associated money making penalty schemes/taxes) are going to evolve faster than we anticipate.
"Mr Khan said: 'If it’s the case, a few months after we have done the expansion (of ULEZ), there are still parts of London outside the North Circular/South Circular within Greater London that require additional help, we will micro-target those areas.'
'Micro-targeting' could involve only allowing zero-emission vehicles to use certain roads at peak times, as has been introduced by the City of London Corporation at Barbican and Hackney council in Shoreditch."
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/ulez-exp...
Interestingly I live in Greater London but outside of the ULEZ zone and never drive into London. I used to work in Putney and it would appear my old office is one road away from the expanded Zone. I think it is inevitable that the zone will be expanded to cover the whole of London in the coming years.Councils are going to be looking at the aggressive plans by London's mayor and seeing how they can copy them in their own city. I think especially with COP26 round the corner, and everyone jumping on the NetZero bandwagon to look "green", restrictions (and the associated money making penalty schemes/taxes) are going to evolve faster than we anticipate.
"Mr Khan said: 'If it’s the case, a few months after we have done the expansion (of ULEZ), there are still parts of London outside the North Circular/South Circular within Greater London that require additional help, we will micro-target those areas.'
'Micro-targeting' could involve only allowing zero-emission vehicles to use certain roads at peak times, as has been introduced by the City of London Corporation at Barbican and Hackney council in Shoreditch."
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/transport/ulez-exp...
As I said, my car is Euro 4 diesel, but interestingly the road tax is only £30 so falls into a hole where I am not being punished as yet. If I was on benefits I could have got it cubed for the £2K payment from Khan.
I live in a Victorian terrace, so no chance of being able to charge an electric car and have to get a parking permit. I can seriously see the council following the plans of Bath in the near future and having an emissions/EURO based system.
Cloudy147 said:
Feels a bit unfair. How much crap does a 20 year old diesel car emit into the atmosphere when it is parked outside someone's home, compared to an electric car, also parked in the same street?
I get the road tax penalties, gradually 'encouraging' us all to switch to greener alternatives over time. The road tax allows us to use those cars, and pollute the environment as we go - thereby we incur a charge for that - but to be penalised on what is kind of a public driveway seems really unfair - particularly to those who may not be able to afford to switch.
Feels like another example of raising local taxes under the guise of being 'green'.
When that diesel car begins moving around the city, as it will all the time because it lives there, it's spewing out lots of particulate emissions which are bad for the air quality. My city has had CO2 or CC linked permit prices for ages, recently rejigged to make it cheaper for people in the 100-160g/km band and I haven't felt too done in by it. If you choose to live in the centre of a city, it costs more!I get the road tax penalties, gradually 'encouraging' us all to switch to greener alternatives over time. The road tax allows us to use those cars, and pollute the environment as we go - thereby we incur a charge for that - but to be penalised on what is kind of a public driveway seems really unfair - particularly to those who may not be able to afford to switch.
Feels like another example of raising local taxes under the guise of being 'green'.
codenamecueball said:
My city has had CO2 or CC linked permit prices for ages, recently rejigged to make it cheaper for people in the 100-160g/km band and I haven't felt too done in by it
Would you mind sharing some of the costs associated with the bands? Obviously, every city will be different, just interested in the schemes that already exist. Joey Deacon said:
I haven't really paid much attention to the new ULEZ zone in London as it doesn't effect me, but I assume anybody living within it who has a non Euro 6 Diesel or non Euro 4 Petrol has had to get rid of it?
I am often in central London, if I walk around Farringdon there are still loads of mid 90s reg Toyotas, OG Saab 900s, dog eared Hondas, loads of the serviceable but ancient cars that seem to be more common in London that anywhere else in the UK.I spoke to a chap I know who keeps his 900 on the street, F plate owned since new, and he just sets it up to autopay when he uses it. He laughed about the sort of pleb who traded in a perfectly serviceable car to buy a brand new car so their RFL would go down from £80 a month to £0, with a payback time of 7+ years on that "investment", and said it was the same principle. He uses his car a couple of times a month and it costs him £50 or so, if he were to throw it away and buy a brand new car for that then he would be a fool.
As an aside I live in Hanwell during the week and the streets there are an absolute treat for lovers of old and mundane crap. On a 10 minute walk to the pub the other night I went past an S reg Escort, a G reg 318i in poverty spec, a K reg Audi 80 convertible, a V8 dodge RAM, what must be the worlds last remaining Talbot Solara, and a load of other old crap I've forgotten about. These sort of Victorian terraced streets would be full of leased german s
te everywhere else in the country!Why are emissions charges always done on your ability to pollute, not your actual pollution?
Just because you have a big engined car, doesn't mean that you will pollute more than someone with a small engined car.
If you only do low mileage, your actual pollution could be a lot less than someone who has a small car but drives 30k a year.
If I was in charge - pollution tax would be on the fuel used, which would mean that those who pollute more, pay more.
Just because you have a big engined car, doesn't mean that you will pollute more than someone with a small engined car.
If you only do low mileage, your actual pollution could be a lot less than someone who has a small car but drives 30k a year.
If I was in charge - pollution tax would be on the fuel used, which would mean that those who pollute more, pay more.
Cold said:
Just a quick note to point out the Portsmouth ULEZ is not targeting privately owned cars and vans, just the commercial stuff.
https://www.portsmouth.gov.uk/2021/06/17/launch-of...
(The fact that the area covered by the ULEZ follows the path of the ferry and container ship routes into the city centre is entirely coincidental)
Is there a corridor through to the A3 or M275? Seems mightily unfair if not as it becomes unavoidable.https://www.portsmouth.gov.uk/2021/06/17/launch-of...
(The fact that the area covered by the ULEZ follows the path of the ferry and container ship routes into the city centre is entirely coincidental)
Presumably they'll ensure the stinky exhaust from the many, many ships doesn't go in the zone.
codenamecueball said:
Cloudy147 said:
Feels a bit unfair. How much crap does a 20 year old diesel car emit into the atmosphere when it is parked outside someone's home, compared to an electric car, also parked in the same street?
I get the road tax penalties, gradually 'encouraging' us all to switch to greener alternatives over time. The road tax allows us to use those cars, and pollute the environment as we go - thereby we incur a charge for that - but to be penalised on what is kind of a public driveway seems really unfair - particularly to those who may not be able to afford to switch.
Feels like another example of raising local taxes under the guise of being 'green'.
When that diesel car begins moving around the city, as it will all the time because it lives there, it's spewing out lots of particulate emissions which are bad for the air quality. My city has had CO2 or CC linked permit prices for ages, recently rejigged to make it cheaper for people in the 100-160g/km band and I haven't felt too done in by it. If you choose to live in the centre of a city, it costs more!I get the road tax penalties, gradually 'encouraging' us all to switch to greener alternatives over time. The road tax allows us to use those cars, and pollute the environment as we go - thereby we incur a charge for that - but to be penalised on what is kind of a public driveway seems really unfair - particularly to those who may not be able to afford to switch.
Feels like another example of raising local taxes under the guise of being 'green'.
None of this is necessary as the ICE ban means there will be a natural decrease in ICE cars anyway and taxation will make EV's more attractive/only option for most anyway.
So the problem will remove itself.
Will they remove these restrictions when the emissions from ICE vehicles become irrelevantly low? of course not......
So the problem will remove itself.
Will they remove these restrictions when the emissions from ICE vehicles become irrelevantly low? of course not......
donkmeister said:
Cold said:
Just a quick note to point out the Portsmouth ULEZ is not targeting privately owned cars and vans, just the commercial stuff.
https://www.portsmouth.gov.uk/2021/06/17/launch-of...
(The fact that the area covered by the ULEZ follows the path of the ferry and container ship routes into the city centre is entirely coincidental)
Is there a corridor through to the A3 or M275? Seems mightily unfair if not as it becomes unavoidable.https://www.portsmouth.gov.uk/2021/06/17/launch-of...
(The fact that the area covered by the ULEZ follows the path of the ferry and container ship routes into the city centre is entirely coincidental)
Presumably they'll ensure the stinky exhaust from the many, many ships doesn't go in the zone.
Psycho Warren said:
None of this is necessary as the ICE ban means there will be a natural decrease in ICE cars anyway and taxation will make EV's more attractive/only option for most anyway.
So the problem will remove itself.
Will they remove these restrictions when the emissions from ICE vehicles become irrelevantly low? of course not......
Agreed, my car is nearly 15 years old so I assume the government think it will be scrapped soon anyway so isn't much of a concern. I do wonder however if people will actually repair cars once the 2030 ban on new ICE vehicles is introduced rather than scrap something for a £1K repair like now.So the problem will remove itself.
Will they remove these restrictions when the emissions from ICE vehicles become irrelevantly low? of course not......
Seeing the crazy queues at petrol stations a few weeks ago it is clear people are reliant on their cars and these are not all magically going to become electric cars in the next 8 years.
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