RE: Mercedes beats Tesla to 'Level 3' autonomy
RE: Mercedes beats Tesla to 'Level 3' autonomy
Friday 10th December 2021

Mercedes beats Tesla to 'Level 3' autonomy

From 2022 you'll be able to buy an S-Class with a button for self-driving. Up to 37mph. In traffic. In Germany



We've known it's coming and now it's here. Fully autonomous driving is a reality and, contrary to what you may have thought, it's not on a Tesla. Mercedes-Benz is the first to launch a Level 3 autonomous driving system that meets the UN-R157 regulation. Both the S-Class and the EQS have met type approval, so anyone who buys either with the new Drive Pilot system, which will be available in the first half of 2022, can legally "take their mind off the traffic and focus on certain secondary activities, be it communicating with colleagues via In-Car Office, surfing the internet or relaxing while watching a film." Wow.

As always, there's more to it, though. Firstly, the system is only type approved by the German Federal Motor Transport Authority. Germany led the way in autonomous driving by opening up its Road Traffic Act (StVG) for Level 3 systems in 2017. And there are many limitations imposed on Drive Pilot. Initially it will be available on 13,191 kilometres of German Autobahn and only at speeds below 37mph - so when there's heavy congestion, basically. Drive Pilot will manage the car's speed and distance from other vehicles and steer the car within its lane.

Significantly, it cannot change lanes, but it will react to unexpected situations and take evasive action when required, all without the driver's input. It also reacts to road signs and modifies its driving accordingly. The driver still has to be ready to take control within 10 seconds. If that doesn't happen, the system will assume the driver is incapacitated, activate the hazard lights and bring the car to a controlled stop. Then it unlocks the doors, opens the windows and calls the emergency services.


How does the system work? Well, in addition to the sensors that allow the current levels of assisted driving, Drive Pilot uses LiDAR to 'see' its surrounding. A camera in the rear window and microphones watch out for approaching emergency vehicles, and there's a 'wetness' sensor in the wheel arch that monitors the road conditions. It also monitors its position using high-accuracy GPS that works in centimetres rather than the usual metres. Along with the live information from its own sensors, the car also has access to a 3D map stored in a data centre. This map is constantly updated and gives the car a reference picture of the road geometry, the route profile, traffic signs and traffic events, such as accidents and roadworks. It's a failsafe that stops sudden 'blindness' in the event that a sensor fails, or the cameras are inhibited by dirt or shadows. On top of this, Drive Pilot has redundancy built into its steering, braking and on-board electrical systems. This keeps it manoeuvrable even if one of those systems fails.

When will this system be available in the UK? Well, the type approval does cover the UK but our own GB Approval will need vehicles to comply with UK-specific traffic rules and signage. There are still ongoing discussions on how this is defined, so UK sanctioning of Drive Pilot probably won't happen until 2023. And it throws up many complexities. Think about the scenario of a policeman observing two drivers creeping along in the traffic in two seemingly identical S-Classes. One car is fitted with Drive Pilot, so the driver isn't doing anything illegal in using a mobile phone, while the other car doesn't have the option, so the driver is breaking the law. Good luck with that one.

Finally, where does the system go from here? There are already Special Interest Groups (SIG) at the UN looking to sign off on the next stage of the regulations. Potentially, this could mean that by the end of 2023 the speed at which the system operates will be raised to 80mph, but on the proviso that the car can change lanes and find refuge in a hard shoulder or layby by itself. So, yes, we're officially one step into this brave new world, but there are many more steps to come and many issues that need solving along the way. Is the future bright or just mildly terrifying? You decide.






Author
Discussion

TheHolloW

Original Poster:

1 posts

167 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
For decades the S Class has paved the way, introducing new technologies to evolve the driving experience. Slightly ironic then, that this new venture involves removing the experience altogether.

Numeric

1,499 posts

181 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
Crikey - that is mighty impressive, and with so little real noise or build up that I had seen, imagine if Tesla had done this we'd have had a year of build up.

Meanwhile Tesla allow games to be played on their big screen I think I saw today, without level 3 I assume - I think they may have that the wrong way round!

It must be very freaky to sit there - a bit like the first time you use cruise control and the car powers up a hill - of course you get used to it but that first time must be very strange!

Dave Hedgehog

16,366 posts

234 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
so basically doing what my auto pilot has done for many 1000s of miles at 80mph over the last few years

but you dont have to pretend to be paying attention, and have to be in slow traffic

Dave Hedgehog

16,366 posts

234 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
Numeric said:
Meanwhile Tesla allow games to be played on their big screen I think I saw today, without level 3 I assume - I think they may have that the wrong way round!
the games and media in a tesla are for when you are supercharging

or waiting for your pissed up other halfs train to arrive

Mark-C

7,714 posts

235 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
TheHolloW said:
For decades the S Class has paved the way, introducing new technologies to evolve the driving experience. Slightly ironic then, that this new venture involves removing the experience altogether.
The new technologies introduced in the S Class have all been about comfort, ease of use, ride quality etc. This feels like it follows on very well ...

dunnoreally

1,356 posts

138 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
TheHolloW said:
For decades the S Class has paved the way, introducing new technologies to evolve the driving experience. Slightly ironic then, that this new venture involves removing the experience altogether.
Not really. The S-Class has almost always been about sheltering the owner from the messy business of whatever's going on outside. It's an obvious place for self-driving to start imo.

In my book, we're all good so long as no-one actively forces me to run an autonomous car. However, I'm almost certain that new cars will have more and more of these features as time passed, and more and more of them will be both switched on by default and very awkward, some eventually impossible, to turn off.

I genuinely think we're in the twilight years of auto enthusiasm as we know it. I don't think it will go away entirely, because I can't see classic cars getting banned, but I do think driving for enjoyment is going to get much, much less accessible.


TheOctaneAddict

1,270 posts

77 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
Dave Hedgehog said:
so basically doing what my auto pilot has done for many 1000s of miles at 80mph over the last few years

but you dont have to pretend to be paying attention, and have to be in slow traffic
Not sure if a parrot is needed here?

Tesla's autopilot is level 2 on a good day, and is not even approved for use in Germany.

kambites

71,599 posts

251 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
It's clearly very limited in terms of functionality but still a very significant step that someone has managed to get a car through the regulatory hurdles for even limited level-3 autonomy on the roads of a major Western country.

The interesting thing to see how is (1) how long it takes to broaden the range of situations in which it can operate, and (2) what happens the first time it crashes.



I think it will surprise no-one who knows anything about automotive history that the S-class is the first vehicle to achieve this.

Edited by kambites on Friday 10th December 13:57

CynicalHotTake

98 posts

74 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
TheOctaneAddict said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
so basically doing what my auto pilot has done for many 1000s of miles at 80mph over the last few years

but you dont have to pretend to be paying attention, and have to be in slow traffic
Not sure if a parrot is needed here?

Tesla's autopilot is level 2 on a good day, and is not even approved for use in Germany.
No, I'll think you'll find the Mercedes system has been designed to cooperate with emergency services vehicles, rather than the Tesla approach which is to slam into the back of them.

anonymous-user

84 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
kambites said:
and (2) what happens the first time it crashes.
Pretty much the same any time there is an BEV fire! Despite BEVs being much less likely to catch on fire ,mainly because they have no hot exhaust line components to set fire to dry grass and scrub (world wide no1 cause of car fires btw), a Tesla fire always makes the news. It'll be the same for autonomous driving. Idiots will look point and laugh, despite those idiots being responsible for more injury and death per mile than the autonomous system.

Us Humans, we are VERY biased...... ;-)

kambites

71,599 posts

251 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
Pretty much the same any time there is an BEV fire! Despite BEVs being much less likely to catch on fire ,mainly because they have no hot exhaust line components to set fire to dry grass and scrub (world wide no1 cause of car fires btw), a Tesla fire always makes the news. It'll be the same for autonomous driving. Idiots will look point and laugh, despite those idiots being responsible for more injury and death per mile than the autonomous system.
Yup, but I meant what happens from a legal standpoint. I suspect there's going to be some very important test cases coming to court in the next few years which could set the precedence for autonomous cars for decades to come.

Dave Hedgehog

16,366 posts

234 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
TheOctaneAddict said:
Not sure if a parrot is needed here?

Tesla's autopilot is level 2 on a good day, and is not even approved for use in Germany.
the only difference is they have merc have got a bureaucrat to sign it off, AP is only L2 because its not been signed off, its travelled 100s of millions of miles on M-Ways at double the speed the merc system is approved for without issue 99.99% of the time, i have done 168 mile trip with the only input being to tug at the wheel once a minute because a bureaucrat says i have to





Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Friday 10th December 14:01

anonymous-user

84 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
What is super important is that these inital real world systems will start to provide real world data for the tuning and optimisation of these systems. Despite many millions of miles of real and virtual testing on this Merc system, the day it gets used in the wild (so to speak) by normal drivers is the day we really start to learn how the system works, and also, how it doesn't work!

But, unlike human drivers, who make mistakes and crash, but leave no record, no data, and pass little or no knowledge on to other drivers of their experience, these systems provide an enormous capability for self improvement. This will, IMO, see a very rapid increase in their capability and performance.

CynicalHotTake

98 posts

74 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
kambites said:
It's clearly very limited in terms of functionality but still a very significant step that someone has managed to get a car through the regulatory hurdles for even limited level-3 autonomy on the roads of a major Western country.

The interesting thing to see how is (1) how long it takes to broaden the range of situations in which it can operate, and (2) what happens the first time it crashes.
It's a much more sensible approach to provide an autonomous driving system in the scenario where it's most valuable - heavy motorway traffic. Unlike Tesla's approach of everything everywhere right now in 2016 2017 2018 2019 2020 2021 2022?

TheOctaneAddict

1,270 posts

77 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
Dave Hedgehog said:
the only difference is they have merc have got a bureaucrat to sign it off, AP is only L2 because its not been signed off, its travelled 100s of millions of miles on M-Ways at double the speed the merc system is approved for without issue
Yes but have you been able to do it with both hands off the wheel? Or have you passed out and the car has bought you to the side of the road safely? Its an apples and oranges comparison.

kambites

71,599 posts

251 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
Dave Hedgehog said:
the only difference is they have merc have got a bureaucrat to sign it off, AP is only L2 because its not been signed off, its travelled 100s of millions of miles on M-Ways at double the speed the merc system is approved for without issue
If the Tesla system was good enough to get signed off by the German authorities, it would have been by now because it would have been a massive PR coupe.

The step between level-2 and level-3 autonomy is enormous. I thought we were still a decade off anyone managing this.

Dave Hedgehog

16,366 posts

234 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
Max_Torque said:
What is super important is that these inital real world systems will start to provide real world data for the tuning and optimisation of these systems. Despite many millions of miles of real and virtual testing on this Merc system, the day it gets used in the wild (so to speak) by normal drivers is the day we really start to learn how the system works, and also, how it doesn't work!

But, unlike human drivers, who make mistakes and crash, but leave no record, no data, and pass little or no knowledge on to other drivers of their experience, these systems provide an enormous capability for self improvement. This will, IMO, see a very rapid increase in their capability and performance.
finally some real world data, woohoo

just ignoring the 3.3 billion miles AP has already done lol

Dave Hedgehog

16,366 posts

234 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
kambites said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
the only difference is they have merc have got a bureaucrat to sign it off, AP is only L2 because its not been signed off, its travelled 100s of millions of miles on M-Ways at double the speed the merc system is approved for without issue
If the Tesla system was good enough to get signed off by the German authorities, it would have been by now because it would have been a massive PR coupe.

The step between level-2 and level-3 autonomy is enormous. I thought we were still a decade off anyone managing this.
they have it signed off on the easiest environment for self driving to work in and at very low speeds (hence FSD is as good as flawless)

Nobody but a German auto maker was going to get it signed off in Germany first lol








CynicalHotTake

98 posts

74 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
Dave Hedgehog said:
TheOctaneAddict said:
Not sure if a parrot is needed here?

Tesla's autopilot is level 2 on a good day, and is not even approved for use in Germany.
the only difference is they have merc have got a bureaucrat to sign it off, AP is only L2 because its not been signed off, its travelled 100s of millions of miles on M-Ways at double the speed the merc system is approved for without issue 99.99% of the time, i have done 168 mile trip with the only input being to tug at the wheel once a minute because a bureaucrat says i have to

Edited by Dave Hedgehog on Friday 10th December 14:01
Is that you, Joshua Brown?

Oh no, he got decapitated by a truck because he also believed the Autopilot system is substantially more capable than it is.

You sound like a liability.

kambites

71,599 posts

251 months

Friday 10th December 2021
quotequote all
rofl God I love the Tesla fanboys. biggrin