Discussion
I think its inevitable long term, especially for electric cars as it was always going to happen that the government would want to tax them some how. There's going to be a hole to fill with the drop of fuel duty.
I too would be against retrofitting black boxes to my cars but I suspect a lot of modern cars already have the facility fitted in one way or another.
I too would be against retrofitting black boxes to my cars but I suspect a lot of modern cars already have the facility fitted in one way or another.
Not sure, on older cars at least, how a “black box” would practically work.
People will remove them (or disconnect) them so it only works periodically to look like lower miles. If based on MOT mileage, then there’ll be an uprise in clocking just before an MOT.
“Prevent tampering” would be practically impossible - “had to remove mine as was doing some work on my car and it was in the way” etc.
And how would it be policed, if it even could.
The road network is far to large to have numberplate cameras everywhere - live in the country so doubt they’ll put them on every minor road etc.
Up road tax - however still have issue that people doing 30k will pay no more than someone doing 1k per year for same car.
Up until now, fuel taxes were a “simple” way to charge on usage - that’s going out the window as more move to electric where it’s almost impossible to distinguish between home elec usage of cars charging. Raise tax/charge on public chargers will have more people either charging from home or preventing the growth of electric cars - something govts are trying to move people into to be “green”….
People will remove them (or disconnect) them so it only works periodically to look like lower miles. If based on MOT mileage, then there’ll be an uprise in clocking just before an MOT.
“Prevent tampering” would be practically impossible - “had to remove mine as was doing some work on my car and it was in the way” etc.
And how would it be policed, if it even could.
The road network is far to large to have numberplate cameras everywhere - live in the country so doubt they’ll put them on every minor road etc.
Up road tax - however still have issue that people doing 30k will pay no more than someone doing 1k per year for same car.
Up until now, fuel taxes were a “simple” way to charge on usage - that’s going out the window as more move to electric where it’s almost impossible to distinguish between home elec usage of cars charging. Raise tax/charge on public chargers will have more people either charging from home or preventing the growth of electric cars - something govts are trying to move people into to be “green”….
I fail to see how this can be done retrospectively for older cars but expect it to happen in time for new
I reckon we could end up in a situation where cars produced pre-this connected services tech - 2015? - are taxed as they are currently (mostly petrol - still got the duty there) and those made afterwards utilise the technology.
Even then, they can't exactly stop you from driving around with a signal jammer on/the module unplugged/broken either - you own the car and they have no real say over what you do with it - cameras couldn't be utilised practically either (to cover every 100yds of every road)
I reckon we could end up in a situation where cars produced pre-this connected services tech - 2015? - are taxed as they are currently (mostly petrol - still got the duty there) and those made afterwards utilise the technology.
Even then, they can't exactly stop you from driving around with a signal jammer on/the module unplugged/broken either - you own the car and they have no real say over what you do with it - cameras couldn't be utilised practically either (to cover every 100yds of every road)
Just increase the tax on fuel to achieve this.
Generally the lighter weight, less asthma-inducing cars will pay less. Heavier trucks that crumble roads will pay more. Doesn't need any fancy technology to run, which our governments aren't really up to snuff for running that kind of advanced technology anyway.
Generally the lighter weight, less asthma-inducing cars will pay less. Heavier trucks that crumble roads will pay more. Doesn't need any fancy technology to run, which our governments aren't really up to snuff for running that kind of advanced technology anyway.
Here's hoping that fuel duty will actually be removed and a simple french style system put in place for main routes as EV adoption hits more than half of road use. Dieselgate all over again, road charging + every increasing electric costs....they told us it was cheaper to run electric cars. 
I don’t see the need in fitting a black box either. Why don’t they just calculate your mileage at MOT time? Of course this means they’ll have to start MOTing one year old cars too, but less hassle and expense than fitting a black box. I also don’t trust the government to not use the black box for other reasons, such as tracking where I go, selling our data, monitoring our speed.
georgeyboy12345 said:
I don’t see the need in fitting a black box either. Why don’t they just calculate your mileage at MOT time? Of course this means they’ll have to start MOTing one year old cars too, but less hassle and expense than fitting a black box. I also don’t trust the government to not use the black box for other reasons, such as tracking where I go, selling our data, monitoring our speed.
As somebody who can take 2 minutes to unclip a wheelspeed sensor, stopping the tach from increasing, I would welcome this approach!A recent mass rollout of technology has been smart meters and look at how well that has gone. Electric cars are by definition newer and will have the electronic infrastructure. Retrofitting to older cars will be difficult and expensive but of course that would help the government’s objective of getting them off the road.
Do you not think we should be going in the other direction, instead of looking to tax infrastructure usage more, try to find ways to make it cheaper and more abundant? Providing free-at-the-point-of-use infrastructure to our economy is one of the most helpful functions a government could perform for its citizens and economy. It's up there with preserving law & order, defending the nation and ensuring people get a fair kick at the ball of life (education, health care etc.)
What if, instead of fiddling about with quantitive easing and term funding schemes, our government made productive investments in infrastructure building?
Do i want high house prices or do i want roads without potholes? It doesn't matter how much my house is worth, i need somewhere to live, i can't cash out on it. I can keep money in my pension to inherit (bequeath) to my kids tax free, giving them a house is a crap way to transfer wealth.
What if, instead of fiddling about with quantitive easing and term funding schemes, our government made productive investments in infrastructure building?
Do i want high house prices or do i want roads without potholes? It doesn't matter how much my house is worth, i need somewhere to live, i can't cash out on it. I can keep money in my pension to inherit (bequeath) to my kids tax free, giving them a house is a crap way to transfer wealth.
I am pretty sure that they will use tracking based on the brief interview with Huw Merriman (transport select committee) this morning because it would allow for differential road charging by location, in city centres or by time, in rush hour. Everybody also loves data and this would generate loads.
Insurance black boxes are retro fitted. I don’t know enough about the tech to know what the differences are.
You may be able to disable or jam the signal (or leave the black box at home) but would there be checks or the ability to tell if a car was not generating a signal?
All of that available data would certainly take the gloss off my driving life.
Insurance black boxes are retro fitted. I don’t know enough about the tech to know what the differences are.
You may be able to disable or jam the signal (or leave the black box at home) but would there be checks or the ability to tell if a car was not generating a signal?
All of that available data would certainly take the gloss off my driving life.
solution is simple - add road tax to fuel prices. drive a heavy car, or with a big engine? pay more road tax. drive your 320d 20,000 miles in a year compared to someone who drives 5,000 miles? pay 4 times more road tax.
Such a simple system, and can't be easily avoided, unless somehow you fuel your cars somewhere other than a petrol station.
Same system with electric cars - any charger that is designed to charge a vehicle (tesla supercharger, lampost chargers, wallbox chargers at home etc) has tax applied on the electricity used, and again, cars that drive further pay more tax. The only way around this would be to charge from a conventional wall socket.
Unfortunately though, while such a system is very fair, it punishes the poor, who cannot afford to buy more economical cars, and rewards the rich, who suddenly find that the tax on their ferrari goes way down, as it only does 1000 miles a year.
Such a simple system, and can't be easily avoided, unless somehow you fuel your cars somewhere other than a petrol station.
Same system with electric cars - any charger that is designed to charge a vehicle (tesla supercharger, lampost chargers, wallbox chargers at home etc) has tax applied on the electricity used, and again, cars that drive further pay more tax. The only way around this would be to charge from a conventional wall socket.
Unfortunately though, while such a system is very fair, it punishes the poor, who cannot afford to buy more economical cars, and rewards the rich, who suddenly find that the tax on their ferrari goes way down, as it only does 1000 miles a year.
"If" black boxes were selected by the learned experts, and assuming that we were all totally compliant and turned up at a fitting station to have them installed; how many years would it take to fit them to all the UK vehicles?
It would not go down well if they commenced charging until all vehicles had them.
If a black box stopped working it would seem that the chances of being caught would be remote
Presumably foreign registered vehicles would be exempt as they are currently with regard to various laws
It would not go down well if they commenced charging until all vehicles had them.
If a black box stopped working it would seem that the chances of being caught would be remote
Presumably foreign registered vehicles would be exempt as they are currently with regard to various laws
brillomaster said:
Same system with electric cars - any charger that is designed to charge a vehicle (tesla supercharger, lampost chargers, wallbox chargers at home etc) has tax applied on the electricity used, and again, cars that drive further pay more tax. The only way around this would be to charge from a conventional wall socket.
Your electric company just knows how much electricity you use, it has no idea what that electricity is used for. That will include wall chargers and chargers at offices etc.They would have to build something into the Tesla/retail chargers, however that will only result in:
a) people using home/office charging where there is no surcharge.
b) lower take-up of electric vehicles as there's no running cost benefit any more.
kiethton said:
GetCarter said:
120+ mile roundtrip to my nearest supermarket. How much you 'use' the car needs to be looked at sensibly (ie, not by the idiots that think the UK is all like London).
Thats an excuse for food delivery/amazon fresh if ever I saw one - your annual mileage must be huge!For 7 months of the year I average 53 mph mind, as there is bugger all traffic.
Still means road pricing needs to be commensurate to ability of access... not how many miles.
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