The nightmare of selling a UK car to a friend in Germany now
Discussion
Situation: A 20 year old 911, it's a UK RHD car in my name, road legal and last week I took it to Nurburgring on a trailer. Whilst there a German friend sees it and wants to buy it, happy to pay the £25,000 I'd sell it for - but then it gets complicated.
Complications started before I was out of the UK. Border control initially said I couldn't get on the ferry without a carnet. Was able to show documentation that as the car is in my name, road legal and I'm going to a pre-arranged event then I don't need to spend the £300 on a carnet. After an hour of phone calls they agreed I was correct and let me go, but explained they were just trying to ensure it wasn't being sold to avoid duty. (At that stage I wasn't planning to sell it). But now, how do I handle going back through the port next week with an empty trailer?! My understanding is post-Brexit there is tax/duty to pay on a private sale which my friend in Germany would be happy to pay, that would be 19% VAT and possibly 10% duty as well but rate is not clear on older but not historic cars. He thinks he would pay that at the German DVLA when registering but unclear as car is now in Germany and normally you would pay at a port. I think the answer is I need to stop at border control (not sure if Europe or UK) on the way back and declare the vehicle is sold and tell them the sale price and the details of the new German owner and they will then sort the duty with that German owner? Send an invoice?
But does anyone know? Has anyone done anything like this?
Thanks.
DH
Complications started before I was out of the UK. Border control initially said I couldn't get on the ferry without a carnet. Was able to show documentation that as the car is in my name, road legal and I'm going to a pre-arranged event then I don't need to spend the £300 on a carnet. After an hour of phone calls they agreed I was correct and let me go, but explained they were just trying to ensure it wasn't being sold to avoid duty. (At that stage I wasn't planning to sell it). But now, how do I handle going back through the port next week with an empty trailer?! My understanding is post-Brexit there is tax/duty to pay on a private sale which my friend in Germany would be happy to pay, that would be 19% VAT and possibly 10% duty as well but rate is not clear on older but not historic cars. He thinks he would pay that at the German DVLA when registering but unclear as car is now in Germany and normally you would pay at a port. I think the answer is I need to stop at border control (not sure if Europe or UK) on the way back and declare the vehicle is sold and tell them the sale price and the details of the new German owner and they will then sort the duty with that German owner? Send an invoice?
But does anyone know? Has anyone done anything like this?
Thanks.
DH
Bring it back, go through the process of exporting it legally, friend flys over and picks it up, enjoys driving it back, it’s either that or trying to do something ‘off the books’ which will no doubt lead to additional costs and much thinking of ‘why didn’t we do it right to start with’ from both of you.
It's not "off the books" and as explained, not trying to avoid the correct duty and tax and certainly neither myself or my friend have either intentionally or unintentionally done anything illegal! Seems daft to be forced to bring the car back and pay transport and other costs twice.
I know others that have done similar stuff in a pre Brexit world when of course was easy as no tax and duty - but maybe widening it a bit and taking out the Brexit emotion... Say the deal was in North Africa or India, still drive able to from the UK. What would be the situation then?
I know others that have done similar stuff in a pre Brexit world when of course was easy as no tax and duty - but maybe widening it a bit and taking out the Brexit emotion... Say the deal was in North Africa or India, still drive able to from the UK. What would be the situation then?
Perhaps ‘off the books’ was the wrong way of describing it, I wasn’t suggesting you were trying to avoid the duty, its just with having the interaction with customs on the way out there’s a chance that they would be checking you on the way back, no car on the trailer (despite no intention to sell on the way out) probably wouldn’t go down well, if you could complete all the paperwork and get any costs paid before coming back, and had the documentation to prove that you would probably be fine, if not you are going to run the risk that they are going to think that selling it was your original intention, things could then get complicated for both of you.
I presume if you'd had a carnet you wouldn't have been able to sell the car as that's a licence to temporarily import goods into a country but they must come back within the time frame allowed.
It's your friend that needs to arrange to import and register the car in Germany, but whether you should have sold the car without you or the friend exporting it from the UK first it is another matter, you'll need to tell the DVLA and that's probably where you'll find out whether you have broken any rules and if there is any pain to come.
It's your friend that needs to arrange to import and register the car in Germany, but whether you should have sold the car without you or the friend exporting it from the UK first it is another matter, you'll need to tell the DVLA and that's probably where you'll find out whether you have broken any rules and if there is any pain to come.
Your German friend needs to collect the customs paperwork in order to register the car. Let him do the research with German customs and TUV before you leave the country. Otherwise this could get very convoluted indeed, certainly for him, possibly for you. It may well be simpler, as somebody suggested upthread, for him to pick up the car in the UK.
I think you (or rather, your friend) will struggle with the import/registration of the vehicle in Germany.
I appreciate that this is an unexpected situation, but in order to import and register a vehicle into the EU post-Brexit you need a "Vignet 705" which would normally be issued by Customs at your point of entry into the EU. Obviously you won't have this. If you're staying in Germany for a few days it could be worth finding out where the nearest Customs office is - most cities should have one. Pre-Covid you could just walk in off the street, take a number and wait. Now you need to make an appointment. Explain the situation, and they may be able to help you out with the paperwork. I don't want to seem too negative, but my experience with EU-based Customs post-Brexit is that they aren't tremendously helpful with UK export situations which are problematic.
If you're leaving Germany soon - and if it's really a friend who wants to buy it, maybe you could have an agreement that he buys the car subject to being able to register it in Germany. If it's just someone you met at the Ring, you could just take the money and leave them to it.
I don't think you have anything to fear from UK Customs coming back in - the chance that they have "marked your card" on the way out is somewhere between minimal and non-existent.
I appreciate that this is an unexpected situation, but in order to import and register a vehicle into the EU post-Brexit you need a "Vignet 705" which would normally be issued by Customs at your point of entry into the EU. Obviously you won't have this. If you're staying in Germany for a few days it could be worth finding out where the nearest Customs office is - most cities should have one. Pre-Covid you could just walk in off the street, take a number and wait. Now you need to make an appointment. Explain the situation, and they may be able to help you out with the paperwork. I don't want to seem too negative, but my experience with EU-based Customs post-Brexit is that they aren't tremendously helpful with UK export situations which are problematic.
If you're leaving Germany soon - and if it's really a friend who wants to buy it, maybe you could have an agreement that he buys the car subject to being able to register it in Germany. If it's just someone you met at the Ring, you could just take the money and leave them to it.
I don't think you have anything to fear from UK Customs coming back in - the chance that they have "marked your card" on the way out is somewhere between minimal and non-existent.
Edited by sunbeam alpine on Sunday 24th April 13:57
I sold a car to a guy living in Germany when we were still in the EU. It was already a bit of a faff, but mostly for him as car buying in Germany looks like a much more paperwork heavy affair than here.
Sorting the British bit was relatively easy.
I expect now it's vastly trickier. Certainly better if it comes back then he takes it back, as silly as that is.
Sorting the British bit was relatively easy.
I expect now it's vastly trickier. Certainly better if it comes back then he takes it back, as silly as that is.
sunbeam alpine said:
you need a "Vignet 705"
Thanks, I think that is the answer and that document appears to be downloadable. Thoughts are then friend (buyer) fills in the Vignet 705 and we have a copy each and a bill of sale.
That evidences the transaction and friend (it is a genuine friend, someone I have known for 20 years - I'm staying at his house later in the week so we can print all this off). Anyway he can then pay whatever duty and tax is requested and register it in Germany just as if he had bought it home from the port himself. If the authorities have any issues they can inspect it. Just by coincidence he lives in the port city of Bremen so that might make it easier.
When I return to the UK later this week I have the necessary documentation which should reassure that everything is in order - but there would be no tax or duty for me to pay. Question then is do I stop and explain all this to border control on the way back! Will they think I'm wasting their time and so I should just drive through and only explain if I'm stopped because of the empty trailer?!
DippedHeadlights said:
sunbeam alpine said:
you need a "Vignet 705"
Thanks, I think that is the answer and that document appears to be downloadable. Thoughts are then friend (buyer) fills in the Vignet 705 and we have a copy each and a bill of sale.
That evidences the transaction and friend (it is a genuine friend, someone I have known for 20 years - I'm staying at his house later in the week so we can print all this off). Anyway he can then pay whatever duty and tax is requested and register it in Germany just as if he had bought it home from the port himself. If the authorities have any issues they can inspect it. Just by coincidence he lives in the port city of Bremen so that might make it easier.
When I return to the UK later this week I have the necessary documentation which should reassure that everything is in order - but there would be no tax or duty for me to pay. Question then is do I stop and explain all this to border control on the way back! Will they think I'm wasting their time and so I should just drive through and only explain if I'm stopped because of the empty trailer?!
DippedHeadlights said:
Question then is do I stop and explain all this to border control on the way back! Will they think I'm wasting their time and so I should just drive through and only explain if I'm stopped because of the empty trailer?!
I thought you went to Germany to buy a car, but the sale didn't go through hence the empy trailer?If your Porsche comes up it's staying at a friend near the Nurburgring for future visits...
OP here, just to close this off in case anyone else finds themselves in a similar position and search pops this up.
I'm now back in the UK with an empty trailer and the car is starting a new life in Germany. I was not stopped leaving the EU or entering the UK.
I do have with me a bill of sale for the car and a copy of the Vignet 705 that the buyer completed. That was easy to do and seems sensible in case I was challenged.
One lesson from it all, for a private car you really do not want or need an ATA Carnet for your own car on your own trailer despite what they might say at the port.
I'm now back in the UK with an empty trailer and the car is starting a new life in Germany. I was not stopped leaving the EU or entering the UK.
I do have with me a bill of sale for the car and a copy of the Vignet 705 that the buyer completed. That was easy to do and seems sensible in case I was challenged.
One lesson from it all, for a private car you really do not want or need an ATA Carnet for your own car on your own trailer despite what they might say at the port.
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