Diesels are by far the most economical choice for consumers
Discussion
The government have manufactured a position where diesels are an attractive proposition for many people but then they have turned around and sanctioned their use through clean air zones.
Reasons
1) Petrol is a joke... ever since they introduced the new fuel many are reporting reduced mpg.
2) diesel cars already allowed more mpg when compared to petrol even before they watered down petrol.
3) diesels don't require you to rev the nuts of the car and are more relaxing to drive on the motorway.. you can cruise at 70 at 2/2.5k rpm... rather than a petrol engine singing at 3-4k.
4) diesels are a much relaxing drive.
5) If you are commuting a long way or are doing a road trip, you could be forced to use a large petrol mpv/estate this will give you horrendous mpg and with the cost of living crisis makes trips in larger petrol cars uneconomical.... the only choice for people are diesels but these are being sanctioned.
If you need a large car and need to commute or drive a long distance with the price of petrol and the reduced mpg due to the watered down petrol... makes trips uneconomical.
So essentially you need to either buy a expensive petrol car to get the same mpg as a 500£ diesel.
Reasons
1) Petrol is a joke... ever since they introduced the new fuel many are reporting reduced mpg.
2) diesel cars already allowed more mpg when compared to petrol even before they watered down petrol.
3) diesels don't require you to rev the nuts of the car and are more relaxing to drive on the motorway.. you can cruise at 70 at 2/2.5k rpm... rather than a petrol engine singing at 3-4k.
4) diesels are a much relaxing drive.
5) If you are commuting a long way or are doing a road trip, you could be forced to use a large petrol mpv/estate this will give you horrendous mpg and with the cost of living crisis makes trips in larger petrol cars uneconomical.... the only choice for people are diesels but these are being sanctioned.
If you need a large car and need to commute or drive a long distance with the price of petrol and the reduced mpg due to the watered down petrol... makes trips uneconomical.
So essentially you need to either buy a expensive petrol car to get the same mpg as a 500£ diesel.
Edited by Jamaica on Wednesday 8th June 16:47
Have you driven a modern turbocharged petrol? They don’t run at 3-4k rpm on the motorway or need to be revved out to get anywhere they are not far off diesel mpg at all.
Anything pre euro 6d temp diesel is pretty much a bodge on emissions this is well known.
Petrol not perfect they need a gpf to be as clean as can be.
Small turbocharged GPF petrol is the sweet spot for most use cases.
Anything pre euro 6d temp diesel is pretty much a bodge on emissions this is well known.
Petrol not perfect they need a gpf to be as clean as can be.
Small turbocharged GPF petrol is the sweet spot for most use cases.
The fuel cost of a diesel vs. petrol for long distances is significant even with a 10p per litre differential
On my old 1.6 turbo Clubman I could only do around 300 miles per tank. So a run of 165 miles to Brum and 165 miles back isn't possible. Factor in the recent uncertainty over fuel and run on pumps and petrol isn't the choice. Even our other petrol car, the Jazz, only has a 300 mile range at around 40mpg.
Compare that to our Euro 6 Bussat, which is currently averaging 59mpg calculated and 62mpg on the computer, giving a real world range of around 800 miles. That's the trip to Brum and back and having fuel for commuting if there's a fuel shortage. The other plus is a bigger and more comfortable car.
On my old 1.6 turbo Clubman I could only do around 300 miles per tank. So a run of 165 miles to Brum and 165 miles back isn't possible. Factor in the recent uncertainty over fuel and run on pumps and petrol isn't the choice. Even our other petrol car, the Jazz, only has a 300 mile range at around 40mpg.
Compare that to our Euro 6 Bussat, which is currently averaging 59mpg calculated and 62mpg on the computer, giving a real world range of around 800 miles. That's the trip to Brum and back and having fuel for commuting if there's a fuel shortage. The other plus is a bigger and more comfortable car.
seadoo180 said:
Have you driven a modern turbocharged petrol? They don’t run at 3-4k rpm on the motorway or need to be revved out to get anywhere they are not far off diesel mpg at all.
Anything pre euro 6d temp diesel is pretty much a bodge on emissions this is well known.
Petrol not perfect they need a gpf to be as clean as can be.
Small turbocharged GPF petrol is the sweet spot for most use cases.
If money is no object but many people are not in a position to purchase a car like that.. especially a larger family/estate car. Anything pre euro 6d temp diesel is pretty much a bodge on emissions this is well known.
Petrol not perfect they need a gpf to be as clean as can be.
Small turbocharged GPF petrol is the sweet spot for most use cases.
sgtbash said:
My M140i got near 50mpg on a gentle motorway run with RPM's hovering just over 1.2k due to the 8 speed
My 330D gets around the same on a run but less around town, costs more to fill up due to diesel being a lot more expensive than petrol, and hovers around 1.6k at 70 due to 6 speed.
Then there's the DPF's etc that need maintenance.
So someone would need to spend 15-20k to get the same mpg a old large 600£ diesel can do.My 330D gets around the same on a run but less around town, costs more to fill up due to diesel being a lot more expensive than petrol, and hovers around 1.6k at 70 due to 6 speed.
Then there's the DPF's etc that need maintenance.
Krikkit said:
On the other hand the stinky, noisy, unrefined diesels which kill people should be taxed off the road.
If you buy a petrol that isn't rubbish they're decently economical, nice to drive, and efficient enough that the offset between fuel costs makes them much more justifiable.
If you think petrol engines only emit fairy dust, try this simple experiment, sit in a closed garage with a petrol engine vehicle running in it, and see well you feel after half an hour.If you buy a petrol that isn't rubbish they're decently economical, nice to drive, and efficient enough that the offset between fuel costs makes them much more justifiable.
The Nazis used `petrol' engines to operate their early gas chambers for a reason.
Jamaica said:
The government have manufactured a position where diesels are an attractive proposition for many people but then they have turned around and sanctioned their use through clean air zones.
Reasons
1) Petrol is a joke... ever since they introduced the new fuel many are reporting reduced mpg.
2) diesel cars already allowed more mpg when compared to petrol even before they watered down petrol.
3) diesels don't require you to rev the nuts of the car and are more relaxing to drive on the motorway.. you can cruise at 70 at 2/2.5k rpm... rather than a petrol engine singing at 3-4k.
4) diesels are a much relaxing drive.
5) If you are commuting a long way or are doing a road trip, you could be forced to use a large petrol mpv/estate this will give you horrendous mpg and with the cost of living crisis makes trips in larger petrol cars uneconomical.... the only choice for people are diesels but these are being sanctioned.
If you need a large car and need to commute or drive a long distance with the price of petrol and the reduced mpg due to the watered down petrol... makes trips uneconomical.
I dont think the government is that clever, there were two options for fueling cars back when diesels came to the fore and diesel provided more mpg, generally drove nicer than smaller petrols and became "a thing" they were sort of trendy.Reasons
1) Petrol is a joke... ever since they introduced the new fuel many are reporting reduced mpg.
2) diesel cars already allowed more mpg when compared to petrol even before they watered down petrol.
3) diesels don't require you to rev the nuts of the car and are more relaxing to drive on the motorway.. you can cruise at 70 at 2/2.5k rpm... rather than a petrol engine singing at 3-4k.
4) diesels are a much relaxing drive.
5) If you are commuting a long way or are doing a road trip, you could be forced to use a large petrol mpv/estate this will give you horrendous mpg and with the cost of living crisis makes trips in larger petrol cars uneconomical.... the only choice for people are diesels but these are being sanctioned.
If you need a large car and need to commute or drive a long distance with the price of petrol and the reduced mpg due to the watered down petrol... makes trips uneconomical.
The move to diesel started in the early mid nineties with landmark models like the 306 DTurbo, which felt punchy, sipped fuel and was lovely to drive, plus it looked good.
The government never had a sinister plan to move us all over and then switch to electric as EV's were nowhere to be found, they were just sixth form projects, milk floats and man in a shed conversions.
Things change, and in light of new developments, so so policies. Of course they will want cash off you for using them, depends if you want Police, Defence, NHS etc etc. Thats not the Tories (boo etc) its any government.
1) My other half's petrol car still does 40-50mpg even on this new fairy liquid stuff
2) Diesel is a more energy dense fuel. However, diesels take far longer to heat up than petrols in my experience and better MPG isn't achieved until they're warmed up. Shorter journeys to town and what not would be better done in a petrol.
3) I have a petrol car that manages 2500rpm in 5th doing 70mph. Relaxing drives are achieved with better NVH factors, nothing specific to fuel type. I'm sure you'll agree a Rolls Royce Phantom rides better than a Transit Van.
4) See above regarding NVH.
5) According to Honest John's Real MPG, a 1.8i Easytronic petrol Zafira (37.2mpg) will outperform the 1.9 Automatic diesel Zafira (34.5mpg) by ~3mpg. Even the Zafira VXR manages a hair under 30mpg. While the diesel Zafiras can get as high as 46mpg, it does not mean that a petrol equivalent will be "horrendous" to run. In fact, over 1000 miles (NC500 and a bit of a journey there and back) it would cost you an extra £45 for the petrol Zafira above and the most economical diesel model, assuming petrol and diesel prices are the same.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both. Modern petrols are extremely close in real world economy to diesels and seem to be more reliable with DPF's, injectors, turbos and EGR valves all seeming more susceptible to failure then on petrol cars. No idea how reliable or not GPF's are at the moment.
2) Diesel is a more energy dense fuel. However, diesels take far longer to heat up than petrols in my experience and better MPG isn't achieved until they're warmed up. Shorter journeys to town and what not would be better done in a petrol.
3) I have a petrol car that manages 2500rpm in 5th doing 70mph. Relaxing drives are achieved with better NVH factors, nothing specific to fuel type. I'm sure you'll agree a Rolls Royce Phantom rides better than a Transit Van.
4) See above regarding NVH.
5) According to Honest John's Real MPG, a 1.8i Easytronic petrol Zafira (37.2mpg) will outperform the 1.9 Automatic diesel Zafira (34.5mpg) by ~3mpg. Even the Zafira VXR manages a hair under 30mpg. While the diesel Zafiras can get as high as 46mpg, it does not mean that a petrol equivalent will be "horrendous" to run. In fact, over 1000 miles (NC500 and a bit of a journey there and back) it would cost you an extra £45 for the petrol Zafira above and the most economical diesel model, assuming petrol and diesel prices are the same.
There are advantages and disadvantages to both. Modern petrols are extremely close in real world economy to diesels and seem to be more reliable with DPF's, injectors, turbos and EGR valves all seeming more susceptible to failure then on petrol cars. No idea how reliable or not GPF's are at the moment.
Pan Pan Pan said:
Krikkit said:
On the other hand the stinky, noisy, unrefined diesels which kill people should be taxed off the road.
If you buy a petrol that isn't rubbish they're decently economical, nice to drive, and efficient enough that the offset between fuel costs makes them much more justifiable.
If you think petrol engines only emit fairy dust, try this simple experiment, sit in a closed garage with a petrol engine vehicle running in it, and see well you feel after half an hour.If you buy a petrol that isn't rubbish they're decently economical, nice to drive, and efficient enough that the offset between fuel costs makes them much more justifiable.
The Nazis used `petrol' engines to operate their early gas chambers for a reason.
Jamaica said:
So someone would need to spend 15-20k to get the same mpg a old large 600£ diesel can do.
But your £600 diesel will have to pay ulez charges in an increasing number of areas and will throw a large bill rendering it scrap at any moment. An injector could easily write it off.As for mpg, my old 215bhp diesel would achieve an average of 45mpg and my newer 270bhp petrol does 40mpg on the same run and is miles more fun.
The OP definitely doesn't speak for me, nor, I suspect, for many people.
My MK3 Octavia vRS gives me better fuel economy than my old MK2. It's a brilliant long distance car and while no Merc S Class, it's a great car to swallow a family and luggage and eat up miles.
It also has similar or better inner-city economy to diesels I used to own. Granted, there is better economy to be had on a longer run but it was ever thus and the differential between petrol and diesel hasn't changed in this regard in a couple of decades. Talk of "watered down petrol" means diddly squat in modern petrol engines designed to use that fuel.
What has changed over a couple of decades is the extra tech added to diesels which adds to their maintenance cost. I won't demonise diesels for the right purpose- if you tow horses or carry lots of stuff for 40,000 miles pa then they still make sense- but for buyers doing less than 10,000 miles pa or so the extra cost and complexity of diesels makes them less sensible a choice to me than they used to be.
And that's before we get on to the issues involving local pollutants and health of city dwellers. Even if diesel emissions consisted of unicorns and dandelions though, it doesn't make sense for the great many drivers who do predominantly urban driving with regular but less common longer trips.
Business use has changed. Even though lockdowns/Covid doesn't limit things like it used to, the tech we now all have reduces the need to drive for meetings that work well as Zoom/MS Teams calls. Why drive 60 miles for a 30 minute meeting and 60 miles back when you can do it remotely and use the extra two hours to do other work instead? Times have changed and longer drives that made diesel the default choice for many are now rarer.
My MK3 Octavia vRS gives me better fuel economy than my old MK2. It's a brilliant long distance car and while no Merc S Class, it's a great car to swallow a family and luggage and eat up miles.
It also has similar or better inner-city economy to diesels I used to own. Granted, there is better economy to be had on a longer run but it was ever thus and the differential between petrol and diesel hasn't changed in this regard in a couple of decades. Talk of "watered down petrol" means diddly squat in modern petrol engines designed to use that fuel.
What has changed over a couple of decades is the extra tech added to diesels which adds to their maintenance cost. I won't demonise diesels for the right purpose- if you tow horses or carry lots of stuff for 40,000 miles pa then they still make sense- but for buyers doing less than 10,000 miles pa or so the extra cost and complexity of diesels makes them less sensible a choice to me than they used to be.
And that's before we get on to the issues involving local pollutants and health of city dwellers. Even if diesel emissions consisted of unicorns and dandelions though, it doesn't make sense for the great many drivers who do predominantly urban driving with regular but less common longer trips.
Business use has changed. Even though lockdowns/Covid doesn't limit things like it used to, the tech we now all have reduces the need to drive for meetings that work well as Zoom/MS Teams calls. Why drive 60 miles for a 30 minute meeting and 60 miles back when you can do it remotely and use the extra two hours to do other work instead? Times have changed and longer drives that made diesel the default choice for many are now rarer.
Edited by blearyeyedboy on Wednesday 8th June 12:07
Have we mentioned diesel maintenance costs yet? Batteries are dearer and, as an example from my own personal experience:
- Starter motor for a 2.3 four cylinder Ford petrol engine - £96 supplied and fitted
- Starter motor for a 2.0 four cylinder Ford turbodiesel engine - £392 supplied and fitted.
This isn't the main reason that I don't drive a diesel, but it's certainly a contributor.
- Starter motor for a 2.3 four cylinder Ford petrol engine - £96 supplied and fitted
- Starter motor for a 2.0 four cylinder Ford turbodiesel engine - £392 supplied and fitted.
This isn't the main reason that I don't drive a diesel, but it's certainly a contributor.
Pan Pan Pan said:
If you think petrol engines only emit fairy dust, try this simple experiment, sit in a closed garage with a petrol engine vehicle running in it, and see well you feel after half an hour.
The Nazis used `petrol' engines to operate their early gas chambers for a reason.
That's a preposterous argument. We cannot survive without oxygen, but try sitting in a room breathing neat oxygen for half an hour and see how you feel at the end...The Nazis used `petrol' engines to operate their early gas chambers for a reason.
seadoo180 said:
Have you driven a modern turbocharged petrol? They don’t run at 3-4k rpm on the motorway or need to be revved out to get anywhere they are not far off diesel mpg at all.
Anything pre euro 6d temp diesel is pretty much a bodge on emissions this is well known.
Petrol not perfect they need a gpf to be as clean as can be.
Small turbocharged GPF petrol is the sweet spot for most use cases.
Anything pre euro 6d temp diesel is pretty much a bodge on emissions this is well known.
Petrol not perfect they need a gpf to be as clean as can be.
Small turbocharged GPF petrol is the sweet spot for most use cases.
Great , or so I thought swapped a 1.5 diesel fiesta for the ecoboost version they go well but 15mpg less
So no diesel for me .
Deranged Rover said:
Have we mentioned diesel maintenance costs yet? Batteries are dearer and, as an example from my own personal experience:
- Starter motor for a 2.3 four cylinder Ford petrol engine - £96 supplied and fitted
- Starter motor for a 2.0 four cylinder Ford turbodiesel engine - £392 supplied and fitted.
This isn't the main reason that I don't drive a diesel, but it's certainly a contributor.
That would only apply to older cars. 85% of new cars are bought on finance/lease and most will have warranties and maintenance included.- Starter motor for a 2.3 four cylinder Ford petrol engine - £96 supplied and fitted
- Starter motor for a 2.0 four cylinder Ford turbodiesel engine - £392 supplied and fitted.
This isn't the main reason that I don't drive a diesel, but it's certainly a contributor.
While it's a bit of a strange thing to start a thread about and I don't think there's any sort of big malevolent conspiracy behind clean air zones - I do agree with the OP's conclusion. I know that in theory modern turbo'd petrols can deliver impressive fuel economy - but (in my experience) only if you don't use the turbo and drive everywhere pretending it's a dog-slow old NA diesel. Getting good economy at 65 on the motorway isn't wildly impressive; virtually anything vaguely normal built in the last 25 years will. Stick a modern petrol turbo in a big car, try to access a moderate amount of the performance on offer, and you'll get predictably poor fuel economy. I think the whole 'do a journey of under 10 miles in a diesel and the mpg will be rubbish and the DPF will explode' stuff is way overdone too. However I won't try to pretend pre-EU6 diesels have any place in built-up areas - they are dirty things - or that they sound anything other than s
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