RE: Prices of less $2 per litre 'possible' with e-fuel
RE: Prices of less $2 per litre 'possible' with e-fuel
Monday 11th July 2022

E-fuel prices of less than $2 per litre 'possible'

Porsche CEO remains committed to a synthetic fuel future, despite mounting scepticism


Despite EU lawmakers recently endorsing a total ban on fossil-fuel cars from 2035, Porsche CEO Oliver Blume has confirmed that Porsche remains committed to a ‘double-e path’ that will see the firm continue to invest in e-fuels while pursuing new battery-electric models. “Among the traditional automakers, we have a very progressive electric strategy. Our ambition is for more than 80 per cent of vehicles delivered to customers in 2030 to be all-electric,” he reiterated, pointing out that the Taycan was already rivalling the 911 in sales terms. 

Nevertheless, the Blume remained bullish over Porsche’s short-term future. He confirmed that ‘over the coming years, we will offer a very sporty hybrid setup for the 911, as many are familiar with from the motorsport context’ - and alluded to language in the recently agreed EU agreement that suggested additional consideration should be given to the role that sustainable fuels and associated technologies might play in decarbonising the road transport sector beyond 2035. 

The clause itself is short on detail, but Blume was unequivocal: “Technology bans act as a brake on innovation” he said in an interview first published in the Bild am Sonntag newspaper. “Climate protection has to be seen holistically. That’s why we need to be open in terms of technology. Electromobility is an important track. At the same time, there are more than a billion existing vehicles worldwide. They will be on the roads for decades to come. E-fuels are an effective, complementary solution in this regard.”

Sagely, he pointed out that the billion or so combustion engines currently in existence would not need to be converted or retrofitted to run on e-fuel, and that it would enable ‘all vehicles’ to play a role in reducing CO2. Of course the issue with e-fuels has always been the complexity and expense associated with their production, but Blume suggested that, “if produced on an industrial scale, prices of less than $2 per litre could be possible.” Certainly no one is suggesting that we’re approaching that point anytime soon. Nevertheless, Porsche seems adamant that at the end of a very long tunnel, the light remains on. 


Author
Discussion

NDNDNDND

Original Poster:

2,546 posts

214 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
I hope e-fuels can help keep enthusiast cars going in an environmentally friendly manner when the majority of vehicles are electric.

I wonder if it will be possible in the relatively short term to displace the ethanol content in forecourt fuel with e-fuel?

GT9

9,089 posts

203 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
NDNDNDND said:
I hope e-fuels can help keep enthusiast cars going in an environmentally friendly manner when the majority of vehicles are electric.

I wonder if it will be possible in the relatively short term to displace the ethanol content in forecourt fuel with e-fuel?
UK petrol consumption is of the order of 15 billion litres per annum.

1 litre of e-fuel requires around 20 kWh of electricity to produce it.

Which, as an aside, means that $2 per litre would require some pretty damn cheap electricity.

Anyway 1.5 billion litres of e-fuel to replace ethanol would require 30 TWh of electricity, about 10% of the current National Grid's annual output.

An interesting alternative use for that 30 TWh is that you can keep 10 million EVs charged with that amount of energy.

Or you could renewably fuel around 2 million ICEs.

Anyone want to hazard a guess why EVs are so popular with energy policy makers?





redroadster

1,886 posts

263 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
If they pull it off and offer it for porsche owners only t there service centres they will mop up the market for sports car owners.

Pugaris

1,406 posts

75 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
GT9 said:
UK petrol consumption is of the order of 15 billion litres per annum.

1 litre of e-fuel requires around 20 kWh of electricity to produce it.

Which, as an aside, means that $2 per litre would require some pretty damn cheap electricity.

Anyway 1.5 billion litres of e-fuel to replace ethanol would require 30 TWh of electricity, about 10% of the current National Grid's annual output.

An interesting alternative use for that 30 TWh is that you can keep 10 million EVs charged with that amount of energy.

Or you could renewably fuel around 2 million ICEs.

Anyone want to hazard a guess why EVs are so popular with energy policy makers?
But like Porsche has pointed out, it's not a case of one or the other. If new vehicles are overwhelmingly electric, it'll vastly reduce the demand for petrol which may then be serviceable by E-fuel.

D4rez

1,668 posts

87 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
redroadster said:
If they pull it off and offer it for porsche owners only t there service centres they will mop up the market for sports car owners.
Used sports cars sure

GT9

9,089 posts

203 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
Pugaris said:
But like Porsche has pointed out, it's not a case of one or the other. If new vehicles are overwhelmingly electric, it'll vastly reduce the demand for petrol which may then be serviceable by E-fuel.
Yes, totally agree, I was just heading off the usual suspects arriving to declare that this will kill EVs stone dead and every driver in the UK can breathe a sigh of relief that ICEs are here to stay for everyone.

BVB

1,232 posts

184 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
This could be another reason Porsche are st to join F1. 100% renewable fuel is on the agenda for 2026. MotoGP a year earlier I believe.

kambites

71,660 posts

252 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
GT9 said:
Pugaris said:
But like Porsche has pointed out, it's not a case of one or the other. If new vehicles are overwhelmingly electric, it'll vastly reduce the demand for petrol which may then be serviceable by E-fuel.
Yes, totally agree, I was just heading off the usual suspects arriving to declare that this will kill EVs stone dead and every driver in the UK can breathe a sigh of relief that ICEs are here to stay for everyone.
It's also a good point that $2 per litre sounds enormously optimistic! I think $5 per litre pre-tax would be an achievement.

Gemaeden

304 posts

146 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
At what point are people going to question government pronouncements and realise that there are vast gas and oil reserves and all of this is just about control and profiteering? It is said that it is much easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled.

fourscore

97 posts

180 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
didn't really flesh out the 'mounting scepticism' shouty headline?

kambites

71,660 posts

252 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
Gemaeden said:
At what point are people going to question government pronouncements and realise that there are vast gas and oil reserves and all of this is just about control and profiteering? It is said that it is much easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled.
confused Who is either saying that, or believes that, oil or gas is running out?

GT9

9,089 posts

203 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
kambites said:
It's also a good point that $2 per litre sounds enormously optimistic! I think $5 per litre pre-tax would be an achievement.
The source of electricity would have to be extremely low cost, i.e. not the UK.
So what we are really talking about is importing e-fuel from some faraway land.
Once the shipping, profiteering and UK taxes and duties are applied it going to end up being several multiples of $2.
Whichever way you look at it, e-fuels are going to end up costing 4 or 5 times what a EV will cost per mile, simply because you will be consuming that many times as much electricity per mile.

ruggedscotty

5,998 posts

240 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
Gemaeden said:
At what point are people going to question government pronouncements and realise that there are vast gas and oil reserves and all of this is just about control and profiteering? It is said that it is much easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled.
think its about more than control and profiteering.....

they are saying 43 in london this weekend....

GT9

9,089 posts

203 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
Gemaeden said:
At what point are people going to question government pronouncements and realise that there are vast gas and oil reserves and all of this is just about control and profiteering? It is said that it is much easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled.
This thread is about synthetic fuel produced from renewable electricity, are you talking about the £2 we are currently paying for fossil fuel?

anonymous-user

85 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
Gemaeden said:
At what point are people going to question government pronouncements and realise that there are vast gas and oil reserves and all of this is just about control and profiteering? It is said that it is much easier to fool people than to convince them that they've been fooled.
Time to put the foil hat on...

delta0

2,553 posts

137 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
The wholesale fuel price is about 32% of the total price so the reality is this fuel will cost $6.25/L

kambites

71,660 posts

252 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
delta0 said:
The wholesale fuel price is about 32% of the total price so the reality is this fuel will cost $6.25/L
I think it'll probably cost close to that wholesale, looking at the numbers.

Water Fairy

6,652 posts

186 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
The headline of less than 2$ a litre for this thread is shameful sensationalism at its best. Most educated people realise that the price of fuel is dictated not by the actual price of a barrel but by local government tax grabbing and climate war mongering. Fuel could easily be cheaper right now.........................

whp1983

1,408 posts

170 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
Fuel isn’t expensive, tax on fuel makes it expensive.

And it’s important to keep mind open for technological innovation not just cars but, ships, planes, commercial vehicles (all of which use much more fossil fuels and cause more damage than passenger cars)

But from a self interest point of view a clean (er) way to enjoy race cars etc is great…. As EVs are F-ing dull.

delta0

2,553 posts

137 months

Monday 11th July 2022
quotequote all
kambites said:
delta0 said:
The wholesale fuel price is about 32% of the total price so the reality is this fuel will cost $6.25/L
I think it'll probably cost close to that wholesale, looking at the numbers.
Probably. The reality of this fuel is it is going to be for a very specialised market like motorsports and very high end vehicles/classics. Not an everyday fuel.