RE: Steal or no steal | Trackday hatches
Saturday 16th July 2022
Steal or no steal | Trackday hatches
Keen to buy something honed for circuit work, but don't want to pay the earth? Step this way...
Renaultsport Clio 200, 2010, 59k, £9,950
Even in the current, maddening used market, road-legal track cars look like canny buys for those happy with harnesses. Have somebody else spend money on expensive parts to make it better to drive, then you swoop in for something barely more expensive than standard - but much more exciting. Yes, it’ll be harder to sell on than an untouched example - and obviously it’ll have been thrashed - but it remains a tempting compromise.
Renaultsport hot hatches have made great bases from which to build track cars over the years: great to drive, pretty tough once a few weak spots are addressed, and with a host of aftermarket upgrades to choose from. No wonder paddocks nationwide are full of them.
This Clio 200 is the perfect example of what I’m on about. £10k isn’t much more than would be paid for a standard car with fewer than 60,000 miles, yet this one gets bucket seats, a cage, Gaz suspension and a limited-slip diff. It’s had the expensive gearbox rebuild these 200s need as well, plus a recent cambelt. It won’t win any awards for originality (not least with a replacement engine), but this Clio does promise to be huge fun - and that’s more important. MB
Honda Civic Type R (EP3), 2004, 51k , £19,991
Who remembers the old Honda Civic touring car that raced in the BTCC during the mid-2000s? Granted, after the golden era of Super Touring ended there weren’t that many memorable cars, but it was hard to ignore the Team Dynamics-run red and black bread van with a massive wing on the back.
Well, I can’t be the only one who remembers it fondly because the former owner of this CTR has made some, er, substantial modifications seemingly inspired by a racing car once sponsored by Lego Star Wars. The car has been completely gutted, with the only recognisable bits from its pedestrian past being the dash-mounted gear lever and white dials. It still has Recaros, only the signature red seats have been swapped out for buckets with Sabelt harnesses, and it’s all topped off with a full roll-cage - as a proper track car should.
Power from the revvy 2.0-litre VTEC is almost unchanged at 200hp, though there’s lots of carbon fibre bodywork to keep weight low. No wonder it costs £19,991 - although, crucially, it seems like it’s been put together by someone who knows what they’re doing. Besides, you can hardly go wrong with an EP3 as your canvas. CT
BMW 130i (E87), 2007, 149k, £9,950
Okay, I am on record as saying I didn’t like the old BMW 1 Series, but stop throwing rotten tomatoes at your screen – you’ll break it. This isn’t an about turn. Let me explain. For a start, I was talking about the F20/ F22 when casting doubt on its handling prowess, and I felt somewhat justified by one of the disgruntled comments that said, something along the lines of, ‘My F22 was brilliant. The stock rear dampers were poor but aftermarket suspension sorts that.’ No further questions, your honour.
This is a different kettle of kippers. It’s an E87 1 Series and the ‘prominent car collector and racer’ who made it did put aftermarket suspension on it. It’s now got Bilstein B16 coilovers, along with H&R roll bars and bushes, which should keep it nicely settled. There’s a lot more to it than that, mind. It’s also got uprated brakes, a half cage, lighter wheels and the diff from a 130i auto – apparently the ratio is more suited for tack use. It isn’t an auto, though. This one’s a manual, with a beefier clutch and lightened flywheel to make the 3.0-litre six spin sweeter.
Obviously, a six-cylinder stripped-out track car with rear-wheel drive is a fine formula from the off. But what was the thing that really hit the spot for me? Those vents. Come on people, are they ventastic or what? JH
Discussion
such a short list though ...Is a slow or a fast car more fun on a track? One of my mates sent me a video of him going around Cadwell Park in his EP3 Type-R and it looked like I could walk around the track faster. It looked so slow and underpowered, but because I don't have any track experience myself I'd love to know what is more enjoyable...a fast or a slow car.
I always prefer a fast car to a slow car on the road, but I was just wondering if it is the same on a track or not though.
I always prefer a fast car to a slow car on the road, but I was just wondering if it is the same on a track or not though.
cerb4.5lee said:
Is a slow or a fast car more fun on a track? One of my mates sent me a video of him going around Cadwell Park in his EP3 Type-R and it looked like I could walk around the track faster. It looked so slow and underpowered, but because I don't have any track experience myself I'd love to know what is more enjoyable...a fast or a slow car.
I always prefer a fast car to a slow car on the road, but I was just wondering if it is the same on a track or not though.
Depends on the track and how good of a driver you are.I always prefer a fast car to a slow car on the road, but I was just wondering if it is the same on a track or not though.
Driving a lambo at 10/10ths on a straight but 5/10ths on the corners is no where near as fun as driving a base spec Caterham at 10/10ths everywhere in my opinion.
Wab1974uk said:
Not much of a list !
But Clio all day long.
We forget PH owners bought it to sell cars and rival auto trader. Every now and again the red phone goes and ph has to do a quick article linked to said cars to stimulate sales. Ha, not moaning, the content is free and i am here every day...But Clio all day long.
Edited by fantheman80 on Saturday 16th July 11:25
Leon R said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Is a slow or a fast car more fun on a track? One of my mates sent me a video of him going around Cadwell Park in his EP3 Type-R and it looked like I could walk around the track faster. It looked so slow and underpowered, but because I don't have any track experience myself I'd love to know what is more enjoyable...a fast or a slow car.
I always prefer a fast car to a slow car on the road, but I was just wondering if it is the same on a track or not though.
Depends on the track and how good of a driver you are.I always prefer a fast car to a slow car on the road, but I was just wondering if it is the same on a track or not though.
Driving a lambo at 10/10ths on a straight but 5/10ths on the corners is no where near as fun as driving a base spec Caterham at 10/10ths everywhere in my opinion.
on tight UK circuits I'd take a stock mx5 over an M3 - neither are perfect and if it had to be the M3 I'd rather it wasn't my own car! (tyre & brake bill would be large and the fascia would probably creak on the way home)
We've got a Citroen C1 Cup car. All 68 bhp of tyre-shredding Gallic charm. Stripped interior, full cage, two race seats and harnesses, fire extinguisher, etc, etc. The car has to have an MOT, so properly road legal. Tax and insurance is trivial compared to a £20k hot hatch. We race other, more bespoke stuff (single seaters, sports racers etc) but the little Citroen, as a track day weapon (or race car) is an absolute hoot. It's unbreakable (thus far), tyres are cheap as chips, the limit of adhesion is surprisingly high, yet easy to control on the throttle. You can buy one, ready to use (track day or race) for @ £4k and upwards. Or you can spend your £20k on something more "exotic" that you'd rather not damage, behaves like a road car and cooks its brakes after 20 minutes, but will overtake the Citroen (only if there's a long enough straight though)..........
Wab1974uk said:
Not much of a list !
But Clio all day long.
Jesus, it's like they were half way through writing it, thought 'fBut Clio all day long.
k it, it's POETS day' and just posted what they'd written so far. And what's with the MS Paint bonnet louvres on that BMW?!!!
Pistonheads - this is a new low for you.....
CABC said:
Lee, weight is the real killer. I wish I could drive there in peace and coolness and then really enjoy the TD, but for me it has to be below a tonne. fast tends to be heavy, even swift Caterhams can be slow(ish) on the straights with a screen as absolute power counts over a ton.
on tight UK circuits I'd take a stock mx5 over an M3 - neither are perfect and if it had to be the M3 I'd rather it wasn't my own car! (tyre & brake bill would be large and the fascia would probably creak on the way home)
It doesn't take too much power in a caterham to be as quick as an mx5 in a straight line, even the base academy cars should have similar power to weight than most of the mx5's.on tight UK circuits I'd take a stock mx5 over an M3 - neither are perfect and if it had to be the M3 I'd rather it wasn't my own car! (tyre & brake bill would be large and the fascia would probably creak on the way home)
CABC said:
Leon R said:
cerb4.5lee said:
Is a slow or a fast car more fun on a track? One of my mates sent me a video of him going around Cadwell Park in his EP3 Type-R and it looked like I could walk around the track faster. It looked so slow and underpowered, but because I don't have any track experience myself I'd love to know what is more enjoyable...a fast or a slow car.
I always prefer a fast car to a slow car on the road, but I was just wondering if it is the same on a track or not though.
Depends on the track and how good of a driver you are.I always prefer a fast car to a slow car on the road, but I was just wondering if it is the same on a track or not though.
Driving a lambo at 10/10ths on a straight but 5/10ths on the corners is no where near as fun as driving a base spec Caterham at 10/10ths everywhere in my opinion.
on tight UK circuits I'd take a stock mx5 over an M3 - neither are perfect and if it had to be the M3 I'd rather it wasn't my own car! (tyre & brake bill would be large and the fascia would probably creak on the way home)
cerb4.5lee said:
Is a slow or a fast car more fun on a track? One of my mates sent me a video of him going around Cadwell Park in his EP3 Type-R and it looked like I could walk around the track faster. It looked so slow and underpowered, but because I don't have any track experience myself I'd love to know what is more enjoyable...a fast or a slow car.
I always prefer a fast car to a slow car on the road, but I was just wondering if it is the same on a track or not though.
I am the other way around, I tend to prefer a slower car on the road - the Clio is pretty perfect for road driving imo.I always prefer a fast car to a slow car on the road, but I was just wondering if it is the same on a track or not though.
I used a Clio on track and while it is a lot of fun, it gets old quickly when you are basically a slow moving chicane for other cars. Having the GT Porsches etc. go past you, sometimes one on the left and one on the right of you can be stressful, ultimately you are looking in your mirrors more than to the front as they can also corner faster than you.
While in my faster car there are still plenty of people faster than me (obviously including plenty of people in cars that should be slower in theory), but at least it feels a little more evenly matched/you don't feel like the odd one out, who holds everybody up (although having GT3 race cars go past, who are testing for a race is again an interesting experience - quite fun though to see how much faster the drivers are than I could ever be).
The solution - to a degree - is to only drive in the beginner group, but that leads to other issues (e.g. then suddenly you would like to corner a little faster than others, but the car in front of you does the slow in and fast out approach).
Edit to add: The above is based on mostly driving at the Red Bull Ring and on occasion Salzburgring
MDL111 said:
I am the other way around, I tend to prefer a slower car on the road - the Clio is pretty perfect for road driving imo.
I used a Clio on track and while it is a lot of fun, it gets old quickly when you are basically a slow moving chicane for other cars. Having the GT Porsches etc. go past you, sometimes one on the left and one on the right of you can be stressful, ultimately you are looking in your mirrors more than to the front as they can also corner faster than you.
While in my faster car there are still plenty of people faster than me (obviously including plenty of people in cars that should be slower in theory), but at least it feels a little more evenly matched/you don't feel like the odd one out, who holds everybody up (although having GT3 race cars go past, who are testing for a race is again an interesting experience - quite fun though to see how much faster the drivers are than I could ever be).
The solution - to a degree - is to only drive in the beginner group, but that leads to other issues (e.g. then suddenly you would like to corner a little faster than others, but the car in front of you does the slow in and fast out approach).
Edit to add: The above is based on mostly driving at the Red Bull Ring and on occasion Salzburgring
I found that really interesting thanks. I've never had the confidence to go out on a track, and I think that I would just get wound up too easily if everything was blasting past me all of the time(but I guess that we all have to start somewhere though). I used a Clio on track and while it is a lot of fun, it gets old quickly when you are basically a slow moving chicane for other cars. Having the GT Porsches etc. go past you, sometimes one on the left and one on the right of you can be stressful, ultimately you are looking in your mirrors more than to the front as they can also corner faster than you.
While in my faster car there are still plenty of people faster than me (obviously including plenty of people in cars that should be slower in theory), but at least it feels a little more evenly matched/you don't feel like the odd one out, who holds everybody up (although having GT3 race cars go past, who are testing for a race is again an interesting experience - quite fun though to see how much faster the drivers are than I could ever be).
The solution - to a degree - is to only drive in the beginner group, but that leads to other issues (e.g. then suddenly you would like to corner a little faster than others, but the car in front of you does the slow in and fast out approach).
Edit to add: The above is based on mostly driving at the Red Bull Ring and on occasion Salzburgring
Also I can imagine me getting a bit too carried away as well and then I would just run out of talent! I've always worried about taking my own car on a track too, so I bet that hiring something for the day could be a good shout.
All of my friends are surprised that I've not ever been on a track(because most of them have), and they've all said that I would love it though.
cerb4.5lee said:
MDL111 said:
I am the other way around, I tend to prefer a slower car on the road - the Clio is pretty perfect for road driving imo.
I used a Clio on track and while it is a lot of fun, it gets old quickly when you are basically a slow moving chicane for other cars. Having the GT Porsches etc. go past you, sometimes one on the left and one on the right of you can be stressful, ultimately you are looking in your mirrors more than to the front as they can also corner faster than you.
While in my faster car there are still plenty of people faster than me (obviously including plenty of people in cars that should be slower in theory), but at least it feels a little more evenly matched/you don't feel like the odd one out, who holds everybody up (although having GT3 race cars go past, who are testing for a race is again an interesting experience - quite fun though to see how much faster the drivers are than I could ever be).
The solution - to a degree - is to only drive in the beginner group, but that leads to other issues (e.g. then suddenly you would like to corner a little faster than others, but the car in front of you does the slow in and fast out approach).
Edit to add: The above is based on mostly driving at the Red Bull Ring and on occasion Salzburgring
I found that really interesting thanks. I've never had the confidence to go out on a track, and I think that I would just get wound up too easily if everything was blasting past me all of the time(but I guess that we all have to start somewhere though). I used a Clio on track and while it is a lot of fun, it gets old quickly when you are basically a slow moving chicane for other cars. Having the GT Porsches etc. go past you, sometimes one on the left and one on the right of you can be stressful, ultimately you are looking in your mirrors more than to the front as they can also corner faster than you.
While in my faster car there are still plenty of people faster than me (obviously including plenty of people in cars that should be slower in theory), but at least it feels a little more evenly matched/you don't feel like the odd one out, who holds everybody up (although having GT3 race cars go past, who are testing for a race is again an interesting experience - quite fun though to see how much faster the drivers are than I could ever be).
The solution - to a degree - is to only drive in the beginner group, but that leads to other issues (e.g. then suddenly you would like to corner a little faster than others, but the car in front of you does the slow in and fast out approach).
Edit to add: The above is based on mostly driving at the Red Bull Ring and on occasion Salzburgring
Also I can imagine me getting a bit too carried away as well and then I would just run out of talent! I've always worried about taking my own car on a track too, so I bet that hiring something for the day could be a good shout.
All of my friends are surprised that I've not ever been on a track(because most of them have), and they've all said that I would love it though.
Agreed with the earlier posts that lightweight is goodness, and getting it up to 10/10ths all the way round is the way to go… its then a case of matching the power/weight of the car to the depths of your pockets and skills.
But, if your track car also needs to double up as a 5dr family car meaning lightness isn’t so much of an option, a 130i does sound lovely and go well - bought one last year, and had about as much practical, cheap fun as you can for <£10k.
But, if your track car also needs to double up as a 5dr family car meaning lightness isn’t so much of an option, a 130i does sound lovely and go well - bought one last year, and had about as much practical, cheap fun as you can for <£10k.
cerb4.5lee said:
MDL111 said:
I am the other way around, I tend to prefer a slower car on the road - the Clio is pretty perfect for road driving imo.
I used a Clio on track and while it is a lot of fun, it gets old quickly when you are basically a slow moving chicane for other cars. Having the GT Porsches etc. go past you, sometimes one on the left and one on the right of you can be stressful, ultimately you are looking in your mirrors more than to the front as they can also corner faster than you.
While in my faster car there are still plenty of people faster than me (obviously including plenty of people in cars that should be slower in theory), but at least it feels a little more evenly matched/you don't feel like the odd one out, who holds everybody up (although having GT3 race cars go past, who are testing for a race is again an interesting experience - quite fun though to see how much faster the drivers are than I could ever be).
The solution - to a degree - is to only drive in the beginner group, but that leads to other issues (e.g. then suddenly you would like to corner a little faster than others, but the car in front of you does the slow in and fast out approach).
Edit to add: The above is based on mostly driving at the Red Bull Ring and on occasion Salzburgring
I found that really interesting thanks. I've never had the confidence to go out on a track, and I think that I would just get wound up too easily if everything was blasting past me all of the time(but I guess that we all have to start somewhere though). I used a Clio on track and while it is a lot of fun, it gets old quickly when you are basically a slow moving chicane for other cars. Having the GT Porsches etc. go past you, sometimes one on the left and one on the right of you can be stressful, ultimately you are looking in your mirrors more than to the front as they can also corner faster than you.
While in my faster car there are still plenty of people faster than me (obviously including plenty of people in cars that should be slower in theory), but at least it feels a little more evenly matched/you don't feel like the odd one out, who holds everybody up (although having GT3 race cars go past, who are testing for a race is again an interesting experience - quite fun though to see how much faster the drivers are than I could ever be).
The solution - to a degree - is to only drive in the beginner group, but that leads to other issues (e.g. then suddenly you would like to corner a little faster than others, but the car in front of you does the slow in and fast out approach).
Edit to add: The above is based on mostly driving at the Red Bull Ring and on occasion Salzburgring
Also I can imagine me getting a bit too carried away as well and then I would just run out of talent! I've always worried about taking my own car on a track too, so I bet that hiring something for the day could be a good shout.
All of my friends are surprised that I've not ever been on a track(because most of them have), and they've all said that I would love it though.
Main thing is to accept it's not a race, everyone starts somewhere (as you said), & just enjoy it to have fun with the car/limits you have. Respect the other drivers, move over if/as required, & enjoy the excitement of being on track.
Perhaps just go out as a passenger with your friends (or car club) to get the feel/vibe of a Trackday. You've got some good tracks close by. Identify which Tracks/Airfields are the flattest with best run offs to give you more confidence. Travel further afield if required, stay overnight afterwards locally with friends (so you can max time on track ) & make a proper event of it. It's good to talk to other owners about their experiences. Some have done all the work themselves, & have some great stories.
My friend & I purchased an old MGTF 1.6, it's one of the slowest cars on track, & overtaken by most, but it doesn't stop you having fun, getting your lines, revs and gears right etc. Sharing car keeps bills down to. I'd prefer something a bit faster, but would still get overtaken anyway. Keeping an eye on track & what's catching up helps keep things sharp. On one track day, a stripped & caged Ford Focus left me standing, I thought my engine had a problem as it was high revving. I asked the driver what power his engine was producing - '400bhp'!
I'd avoid 'evening only' track days to start off with (everyone piles in to make use of shorter time available), & ones which have race cars testing (for their race there in next couple of days), but as you like cars, you will enjoy yourself!
cerb4.5lee said:
MDL111 said:
I am the other way around, I tend to prefer a slower car on the road - the Clio is pretty perfect for road driving imo.
I used a Clio on track and while it is a lot of fun, it gets old quickly when you are basically a slow moving chicane for other cars. Having the GT Porsches etc. go past you, sometimes one on the left and one on the right of you can be stressful, ultimately you are looking in your mirrors more than to the front as they can also corner faster than you.
While in my faster car there are still plenty of people faster than me (obviously including plenty of people in cars that should be slower in theory), but at least it feels a little more evenly matched/you don't feel like the odd one out, who holds everybody up (although having GT3 race cars go past, who are testing for a race is again an interesting experience - quite fun though to see how much faster the drivers are than I could ever be).
The solution - to a degree - is to only drive in the beginner group, but that leads to other issues (e.g. then suddenly you would like to corner a little faster than others, but the car in front of you does the slow in and fast out approach).
Edit to add: The above is based on mostly driving at the Red Bull Ring and on occasion Salzburgring
I found that really interesting thanks. I've never had the confidence to go out on a track, and I think that I would just get wound up too easily if everything was blasting past me all of the time(but I guess that we all have to start somewhere though). I used a Clio on track and while it is a lot of fun, it gets old quickly when you are basically a slow moving chicane for other cars. Having the GT Porsches etc. go past you, sometimes one on the left and one on the right of you can be stressful, ultimately you are looking in your mirrors more than to the front as they can also corner faster than you.
While in my faster car there are still plenty of people faster than me (obviously including plenty of people in cars that should be slower in theory), but at least it feels a little more evenly matched/you don't feel like the odd one out, who holds everybody up (although having GT3 race cars go past, who are testing for a race is again an interesting experience - quite fun though to see how much faster the drivers are than I could ever be).
The solution - to a degree - is to only drive in the beginner group, but that leads to other issues (e.g. then suddenly you would like to corner a little faster than others, but the car in front of you does the slow in and fast out approach).
Edit to add: The above is based on mostly driving at the Red Bull Ring and on occasion Salzburgring
Also I can imagine me getting a bit too carried away as well and then I would just run out of talent! I've always worried about taking my own car on a track too, so I bet that hiring something for the day could be a good shout.
All of my friends are surprised that I've not ever been on a track(because most of them have), and they've all said that I would love it though.
TrotCanterGallopCharge said:
Lee, to quote Clint Eastwood 'there will always be someone faster than you'....on track due to driver skill, budget, power, or combination of all of those. One thing you will find is there are many, many people faster than you. You can find your own pace though, & go from there.
Main thing is to accept it's not a race, everyone starts somewhere (as you said), & just enjoy it to have fun with the car/limits you have. Respect the other drivers, move over if/as required, & enjoy the excitement of being on track.
Perhaps just go out as a passenger with your friends (or car club) to get the feel/vibe of a Trackday. You've got some good tracks close by. Identify which Tracks/Airfields are the flattest with best run offs to give you more confidence. Travel further afield if required, stay overnight afterwards locally with friends (so you can max time on track ) & make a proper event of it. It's good to talk to other owners about their experiences. Some have done all the work themselves, & have some great stories.
My friend & I purchased an old MGTF 1.6, it's one of the slowest cars on track, & overtaken by most, but it doesn't stop you having fun, getting your lines, revs and gears right etc. Sharing car keeps bills down to. I'd prefer something a bit faster, but would still get overtaken anyway. Keeping an eye on track & what's catching up helps keep things sharp. On one track day, a stripped & caged Ford Focus left me standing, I thought my engine had a problem as it was high revving. I asked the driver what power his engine was producing - '400bhp'!
I'd avoid 'evening only' track days to start off with (everyone piles in to make use of shorter time available), & ones which have race cars testing (for their race there in next couple of days), but as you like cars, you will enjoy yourself!
Appreciate that cheers. Main thing is to accept it's not a race, everyone starts somewhere (as you said), & just enjoy it to have fun with the car/limits you have. Respect the other drivers, move over if/as required, & enjoy the excitement of being on track.
Perhaps just go out as a passenger with your friends (or car club) to get the feel/vibe of a Trackday. You've got some good tracks close by. Identify which Tracks/Airfields are the flattest with best run offs to give you more confidence. Travel further afield if required, stay overnight afterwards locally with friends (so you can max time on track ) & make a proper event of it. It's good to talk to other owners about their experiences. Some have done all the work themselves, & have some great stories.
My friend & I purchased an old MGTF 1.6, it's one of the slowest cars on track, & overtaken by most, but it doesn't stop you having fun, getting your lines, revs and gears right etc. Sharing car keeps bills down to. I'd prefer something a bit faster, but would still get overtaken anyway. Keeping an eye on track & what's catching up helps keep things sharp. On one track day, a stripped & caged Ford Focus left me standing, I thought my engine had a problem as it was high revving. I asked the driver what power his engine was producing - '400bhp'!
I'd avoid 'evening only' track days to start off with (everyone piles in to make use of shorter time available), & ones which have race cars testing (for their race there in next couple of days), but as you like cars, you will enjoy yourself!
Nick(nickfrog) on here did take me out as a passenger in his M2 at Cadwell Park, and that did give me a massive buzz for all the trackday vibe for sure.
I can now understand why so many people get a real taste for it and really enjoy it. I also always enjoy watching the cars blasting around the track when I go to car shows/meets too.
usualdog said:
Most tracks do Novice Track Days, where everyone is at the same level although they tend to sell out quickly so you'll have to plan ahead.
That definitely sounds like a really good option for me I reckon. When Nick took me out in his M2 on the first lap at Cadwell...I was absolutely crapping myself! I just wasn't expecting the speed and the car positioning for the corners etc. What also shocked me is how much you accelerate going down hill, whereas on the road you'd be on the brakes much earlier in comparison. It was fantastic fun just as a passenger I thought for sure.
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