People who own multiple performance cars - the future?
Discussion
There are several people on this forum who own multiple sports and performance cars - what do we think the future will hold?
I’m thinking the likes of GT3’s, M3 CSL’s, E30 M3’s etc, limited run cars, how do we think the introduction of EV’s and fuel price hikes will affect values and what are your plans for the future?
Buy more, keep what you have or sell sell sell?!!
I have a few of these limited cars and am wondering if they will be worthless and unusable in the future or a safe ‘investment’ , a word used in the lightest sense possible !!
I’m thinking the likes of GT3’s, M3 CSL’s, E30 M3’s etc, limited run cars, how do we think the introduction of EV’s and fuel price hikes will affect values and what are your plans for the future?
Buy more, keep what you have or sell sell sell?!!
I have a few of these limited cars and am wondering if they will be worthless and unusable in the future or a safe ‘investment’ , a word used in the lightest sense possible !!
I'm not fortunate enough to be in that position but somehow I can't see values for cars like that tanking - after all nobody is making cars like that any more, and from 2030 it will be EVs only!
I do have a BMW Z4M Coupe (less than 600 were registered in the UK) and hope it retains some value, but as it's a keeper I'm not too bothered if it doesn't. I'll just keep enjoying it anyway!
I do have a BMW Z4M Coupe (less than 600 were registered in the UK) and hope it retains some value, but as it's a keeper I'm not too bothered if it doesn't. I'll just keep enjoying it anyway!
They might go up in value when they are pieces of historical interest. But, you'll have years of them just being seen as slow and difficult to fuel.
If you look at veteran and vintage cars, most aren't worth millions. So much as I love a 2000s V8 bruiser, I can't see them attracting the sort of money that we hear rarer cars achieving at auction.
If you look at veteran and vintage cars, most aren't worth millions. So much as I love a 2000s V8 bruiser, I can't see them attracting the sort of money that we hear rarer cars achieving at auction.
I'm running two powerful V8s as dailies at the moment, as I can see it is going to be the last opportunity to do so.
There will always be a market for cars like this, but of course it will shrink.
I like the horse analogy - when ICE cars came along, the horse ceased use as transport and became hobby/sport instead. Same will happen to the ICE cars being replaced with EV.
That said, there is a point where us dinosaurs die out and the current generation, who aren't really interested in cars, won't really want to inherit your 50 year old E46 CSL (or whatever).
There will always be a market for cars like this, but of course it will shrink.
I like the horse analogy - when ICE cars came along, the horse ceased use as transport and became hobby/sport instead. Same will happen to the ICE cars being replaced with EV.
That said, there is a point where us dinosaurs die out and the current generation, who aren't really interested in cars, won't really want to inherit your 50 year old E46 CSL (or whatever).
I think the safest bet long term are track capable cars.
Even in a world where ice cars are banned on the road, they will likely be allowed on track with synthetic fuel. If you have to trailer it there so what, that's how lots of track cars are used anyway.
Stuff like pagodas, no idea - not exactly fun on track and if you can't drive them on the road... EV conversion I guess.
Even in a world where ice cars are banned on the road, they will likely be allowed on track with synthetic fuel. If you have to trailer it there so what, that's how lots of track cars are used anyway.
Stuff like pagodas, no idea - not exactly fun on track and if you can't drive them on the road... EV conversion I guess.
Some sort of special use registration is required, like the "old timer" system in Germany or the Club registration in Australia. The conditions of registration are that there's limited use which is way more than what would be "consumed" anyway for such cars. I think you could make an analogy with horses where they went from being used for both practical and leisure purposes to being pretty much solely for leisure use. The "fuel" for them is still available but is not as ubiquitously available for horses. They still both produce pollution (albeit at varying times of use and different chemicals).
If cars for leisure purposes (and managed as such) are banned, there's a s
t-tonne of other leisure pursuits which should also be banned - horses for starters. Flying. Long distance travel for leisure purposes. Don't fall into the trap of becoming a victim of others follies or to signal your virtues - they're putting you forward as the sacrificial lamb. I do note the irony of what I've just said here and my first sentence in this post - the boundaries need to be set and for those to be established negotiation needs to occur and trade-offs made.
If cars for leisure purposes (and managed as such) are banned, there's a s
t-tonne of other leisure pursuits which should also be banned - horses for starters. Flying. Long distance travel for leisure purposes. Don't fall into the trap of becoming a victim of others follies or to signal your virtues - they're putting you forward as the sacrificial lamb. I do note the irony of what I've just said here and my first sentence in this post - the boundaries need to be set and for those to be established negotiation needs to occur and trade-offs made.Edited by rodericb on Wednesday 20th July 02:34
I don’t expect the value of performance ice models to go through the floor but I don’t see them as investments either.
Once the blip in fuel prices is over (it is a blip right?
) there may be a bit of a lift as some may see the next few years as a last chance saloon situation to own and enjoy performance ice cars.
But I fully expect future generations of performance EVs to satisfy most enthusiasts who may never own a piston engined vehicle.
Anyway, my crystal ball is hazing over …
Once the blip in fuel prices is over (it is a blip right?
) there may be a bit of a lift as some may see the next few years as a last chance saloon situation to own and enjoy performance ice cars.But I fully expect future generations of performance EVs to satisfy most enthusiasts who may never own a piston engined vehicle.
Anyway, my crystal ball is hazing over …
I’ve been wondering similar.
Taxation, well you just need to live with it if you want to keep running them.
It’s infrastructure that’s the bigger problem further down the line. Those old enough to remember leaded fuel will remember a few stations continuing to offer leaded petrol for classics for a few years after it was phased out for general use. IIRC, it’s now gone completely? For many there was the option to convert engines to run on leaded/include additives.
Even if people want to keep running ICE, it’s going to become much harder to keep running them when fuel becomes harder to obtain and conversion options will be limited. Will be a good few years off but I can see getting rid of mine if/when they are starting to become harder to run.
Taxation, well you just need to live with it if you want to keep running them.
It’s infrastructure that’s the bigger problem further down the line. Those old enough to remember leaded fuel will remember a few stations continuing to offer leaded petrol for classics for a few years after it was phased out for general use. IIRC, it’s now gone completely? For many there was the option to convert engines to run on leaded/include additives.
Even if people want to keep running ICE, it’s going to become much harder to keep running them when fuel becomes harder to obtain and conversion options will be limited. Will be a good few years off but I can see getting rid of mine if/when they are starting to become harder to run.
I own a few a couple of older hot hatches and a couple of V8s, they're interesting cars but not ones that would achieve seriously high values.
I don't think it'll be hard to run these cars for quite some time yet, I think they'll become increasingly more expensive to use though. They'll become a folly and something for us petrol geeks to enjoy at weekends at a cost. A cost that many will abandon in favour of something electric.
I've no doubt my daily car will eventually become something electric but I can still envisage there being interesting petrol cars on the road for quite some time yet. I think within the car community some models will hold a decent value among collectors/geeks like us, the average family hatch or people carrier will fade away in ICE guise.
I don't think it'll be hard to run these cars for quite some time yet, I think they'll become increasingly more expensive to use though. They'll become a folly and something for us petrol geeks to enjoy at weekends at a cost. A cost that many will abandon in favour of something electric.
I've no doubt my daily car will eventually become something electric but I can still envisage there being interesting petrol cars on the road for quite some time yet. I think within the car community some models will hold a decent value among collectors/geeks like us, the average family hatch or people carrier will fade away in ICE guise.
RicksAlfas said:
The classic car movement is worth billions world wide. It will still carry on with synthetic fuels.
The analogy with horses is a good one. They moved from being essential transport to a hobby.
The fuel for horses is cheap and easy to produce/move/store. The analogy with horses is a good one. They moved from being essential transport to a hobby.
Synthetics may be an answer if a distribution network remains but the cost associated with deliveries of fuel away from a network of petrol stations is significant. Try getting a quote for a drum or two of red diesel and compare it to the pump price… and there’s also the cost associated with appropriate storage.
Currently a V8, V10 and soon to add a V6 ,along with a 4 pot diesel Defender.
I’m assuming all will stay with us as currently zero interest in EV.
I equally assume that the V8 and 10 will become classics as such and therefore values will be largely similar to what they currently are all things being equal.
I have no idea when petrol won’t be available but given our ages of 60 don’t really think much about it being a problem for us.
I feel for the younger car enthusiasts although maybe evolution will dictate that word is less valid when no car makes a noise and is simply a mode of transport without emotion.
The analogies with horses as a hobby is interesting - our farrier uses his horse and cart to go drinking in the pub but still needs his diesel Transit for his daily job - his words on EV’s are interesting in how many swear words he can include.
I’m assuming all will stay with us as currently zero interest in EV.
I equally assume that the V8 and 10 will become classics as such and therefore values will be largely similar to what they currently are all things being equal.
I have no idea when petrol won’t be available but given our ages of 60 don’t really think much about it being a problem for us.
I feel for the younger car enthusiasts although maybe evolution will dictate that word is less valid when no car makes a noise and is simply a mode of transport without emotion.
The analogies with horses as a hobby is interesting - our farrier uses his horse and cart to go drinking in the pub but still needs his diesel Transit for his daily job - his words on EV’s are interesting in how many swear words he can include.
rodericb said:
Some sort of special use registration is required, like the "old timer" system in Germany or the Club registration in Australia. The conditions of registration are that there's limited use which is way more than what would be "consumed" anyway for such cars. I think you could make an analogy with horses where they went from being used for both practical and leisure purposes to being pretty much solely for leisure use. The "fuel" for them is still available but is not as ubiquitously available for horses. They still both produce pollution (albeit at varying times of use and different chemicals).
If cars for leisure purposes (and managed as such) are banned, there's a st-tonne of other leisure pursuits which should also be banned - horses for starters. Flying. Long distance travel for leisure purposes. Don't fall into the trap of becoming a victim of others follies or to signal your virtues - they're putting you forward as the sacrificial lamb. I do note the irony of what I've just said here and my first sentence in this post - the boundaries need to be set and for those to be established negotiation needs to occur and trade-offs made.
Good post. Unfortunately our hobby needs some great advocates and they are conspicuously absent. My perception is that the people making the most noise tend to be idiots who do our case no good at all. Too many other people don't want to offend the anti car mob and green lobby. The hypocrisy around other issues such as flying and EVs is staggering.If cars for leisure purposes (and managed as such) are banned, there's a s
t-tonne of other leisure pursuits which should also be banned - horses for starters. Flying. Long distance travel for leisure purposes. Don't fall into the trap of becoming a victim of others follies or to signal your virtues - they're putting you forward as the sacrificial lamb. I do note the irony of what I've just said here and my first sentence in this post - the boundaries need to be set and for those to be established negotiation needs to occur and trade-offs made.Edited by rodericb on Wednesday 20th July 02:34
Edited by Unreal on Wednesday 20th July 10:27
LooneyTunes said:
I’ve been wondering similar.
Taxation, well you just need to live with it if you want to keep running them.
It’s infrastructure that’s the bigger problem further down the line. Those old enough to remember leaded fuel will remember a few stations continuing to offer leaded petrol for classics for a few years after it was phased out for general use. IIRC, it’s now gone completely? For many there was the option to convert engines to run on leaded/include additives.
Even if people want to keep running ICE, it’s going to become much harder to keep running them when fuel becomes harder to obtain and conversion options will be limited. Will be a good few years off but I can see getting rid of mine if/when they are starting to become harder to run.
Taxation is something which should be avoided at all costs. The use of internal combustion engine cars will naturally ramp down if viable alternatives are available. Taxation might hasten the change but it should be a long way down the list of options. Going for a blat in your classic five times a year isn't contributing to climate change and fuelling the thing might be expensive in the future so you won't want extra taxes on top of all that.Taxation, well you just need to live with it if you want to keep running them.
It’s infrastructure that’s the bigger problem further down the line. Those old enough to remember leaded fuel will remember a few stations continuing to offer leaded petrol for classics for a few years after it was phased out for general use. IIRC, it’s now gone completely? For many there was the option to convert engines to run on leaded/include additives.
Even if people want to keep running ICE, it’s going to become much harder to keep running them when fuel becomes harder to obtain and conversion options will be limited. Will be a good few years off but I can see getting rid of mine if/when they are starting to become harder to run.
Crystal ball time. I foresee a general dip in demand / value when ICE cars are considered difficult and expensive to run (not super cars), then an increase during an economic boom cycle once a lot of cars have been scrapped, supply and demand. I don't think we will be at the too expensive to run stage for at least another decade or two.
I think cars are generally bad investments factoring in maintenance, storage, inflation, but you can run something fairly cost neutral if you're lucky.
Perhaps values softening would be good for the enthusiasts?
I think cars are generally bad investments factoring in maintenance, storage, inflation, but you can run something fairly cost neutral if you're lucky.
Perhaps values softening would be good for the enthusiasts?
Benbay001 said:
rodericb said:
If cars for leisure purposes (and managed as such) are banned, there's a st-tonne of other leisure pursuits which should also be banned - horses for starters. Flying. Long distance travel for leisure purposes.
Thats very true and something i hadn't considered.t-tonne of other leisure pursuits which should also be banned - horses for starters. Flying. Long distance travel for leisure purposes. Flying is an annoying one. Like most I'm guilty of flying away for a short haul holiday most years, in part because the best holiday spots are islands and planes/ferries are the only options, but I know people who are back and forth from their holiday homes a couple of times every month. I also know people who, despite proving they can handle their international business relationships just fine via video, are back to trying their hardest to collect enough longhaul airmiles to do their holiday for free.
GR86 said:
Crystal ball time. I foresee a general dip in demand / value when ICE cars are considered difficult and expensive to run (not super cars), then an increase during an economic boom cycle once a lot of cars have been scrapped, supply and demand. I don't think we will be at the too expensive to run stage for at least another decade or two.
That's an interesting point. Will ICE vehicles suddenly become fashionable or in demand 10-20 years after after the majority of them are scrapped and the mediocre ICE cars go. Hopefully we'll be left with some nice, interesting or mint examples. Will values creep up like they have for retro cars where people really want now. Cars that in 2000 people bought for £500 and now values are crazy where 40-somethings are eager to get back in a nostalgic car. Will someone who's 19-20 now, be clambering for Focus RS' or Clio 200s in 20 years where all the characteristics many of us like now, will suddenly garner a huge appeal? Be interesting to find out.
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