Fault after service - how do you prove liability?
Discussion
Hi all,
Let me set the stage. 17 plate, turbo-petrol Clio 4 with about 40k miles (out of warranty due to age), taken to a
for an MOT and service two weeks ago, on the Tuesday. Car passes with a couple of advisories, only thing engine related was to replace spark plugs before the next service, which I was planning on swapping myself. Drive car home (literally a few hundred metres) without issue.
Car doesn't move on Wednesday, and on Thursday my partner drives a couple of hours, mainly on a motorway, without issue. On Friday she sets off and shortly realises that she's got white smoke billowing out of the exhaust, engine seems fine otherwise and there's a car park just up the road where she can park safely so decides to stop there, by the time she gets there through the engine has started to lose power. Recovery vehicle called, engine oil is obviously in a bad state, almost none left and lots of burnt looking emulsion in there apparently.
Car is taken to a garage and that's where it's been for the last week. Getting a bit impatient to be honest as they're only just taking a proper look today, but they're busy with bookings so it is what it is, the point is that they haven't diagnosed the issue but they think it may be a fault with the turbo. At this point I'm assuming that I'm going to receive quite a large repair bill.
Which brings us to the main point of this thread. I know coincidences happen, but the car was running perfectly fine before the service, and I suspect that the mechanic who serviced the car may have put too much oil in the engine, which then caused the fault. Am waiting to see what the garage says about the issue and suspected cause, but obviously if they think that the fault could be a dodgy oil change, I'd quite like to pay up for the repair.
Any advice on how I go about this sort of thing? I guess the plan at the moment is to get as much information and evidence in writing from the garage that the car is at now, and forward it to's complaint department, but I'm conscious that they could just turn around and say "car was fine when it left the shop, not our fault". Anything I should be doing now or be asking for to keep things as smooth as possible down the line?
Let me set the stage. 17 plate, turbo-petrol Clio 4 with about 40k miles (out of warranty due to age), taken to a
for an MOT and service two weeks ago, on the Tuesday. Car passes with a couple of advisories, only thing engine related was to replace spark plugs before the next service, which I was planning on swapping myself. Drive car home (literally a few hundred metres) without issue.Car doesn't move on Wednesday, and on Thursday my partner drives a couple of hours, mainly on a motorway, without issue. On Friday she sets off and shortly realises that she's got white smoke billowing out of the exhaust, engine seems fine otherwise and there's a car park just up the road where she can park safely so decides to stop there, by the time she gets there through the engine has started to lose power. Recovery vehicle called, engine oil is obviously in a bad state, almost none left and lots of burnt looking emulsion in there apparently.
Car is taken to a garage and that's where it's been for the last week. Getting a bit impatient to be honest as they're only just taking a proper look today, but they're busy with bookings so it is what it is, the point is that they haven't diagnosed the issue but they think it may be a fault with the turbo. At this point I'm assuming that I'm going to receive quite a large repair bill.
Which brings us to the main point of this thread. I know coincidences happen, but the car was running perfectly fine before the service, and I suspect that the mechanic who serviced the car may have put too much oil in the engine, which then caused the fault. Am waiting to see what the garage says about the issue and suspected cause, but obviously if they think that the fault could be a dodgy oil change, I'd quite like
to pay up for the repair. Any advice on how I go about this sort of thing? I guess the plan at the moment is to get as much information and evidence in writing from the garage that the car is at now, and forward it to
's complaint department, but I'm conscious that they could just turn around and say "car was fine when it left the shop, not our fault". Anything I should be doing now or be asking for to keep things as smooth as possible down the line?Mod edit, no name and shame please
Clio95 said:
Hi all,
Let me set the stage. 17 plate, turbo-petrol Clio 4 with about 40k miles (out of warranty due to age), taken to a for an MOT and service two weeks ago, on the Tuesday. Car passes with a couple of advisories, only thing engine related was to replace spark plugs before the next service, which I was planning on swapping myself. Drive car home (literally a few hundred metres) without issue.
Car doesn't move on Wednesday, and on Thursday my partner drives a couple of hours, mainly on a motorway, without issue. On Friday she sets off and shortly realises that she's got white smoke billowing out of the exhaust, engine seems fine otherwise and there's a car park just up the road where she can park safely so decides to stop there, by the time she gets there through the engine has started to lose power. Recovery vehicle called, engine oil is obviously in a bad state, almost none left and lots of burnt looking emulsion in there apparently.
Car is taken to a garage and that's where it's been for the last week. Getting a bit impatient to be honest as they're only just taking a proper look today, but they're busy with bookings so it is what it is, the point is that they haven't diagnosed the issue but they think it may be a fault with the turbo. At this point I'm assuming that I'm going to receive quite a large repair bill.
Which brings us to the main point of this thread. I know coincidences happen, but the car was running perfectly fine before the service, and I suspect that the mechanic who serviced the car may have put too much oil in the engine, which then caused the fault. Am waiting to see what the garage says about the issue and suspected cause, but obviously if they think that the fault could be a dodgy oil change, I'd quite like to pay up for the repair.
Any advice on how I go about this sort of thing? I guess the plan at the moment is to get as much information and evidence in writing from the garage that the car is at now, and forward it to's complaint department, but I'm conscious that they could just turn around and say "car was fine when it left the shop, not our fault". Anything I should be doing now or be asking for to keep things as smooth as possible down the line?
Sounds like a turbo issue as a guess (white smoke)Let me set the stage. 17 plate, turbo-petrol Clio 4 with about 40k miles (out of warranty due to age), taken to a
for an MOT and service two weeks ago, on the Tuesday. Car passes with a couple of advisories, only thing engine related was to replace spark plugs before the next service, which I was planning on swapping myself. Drive car home (literally a few hundred metres) without issue.Car doesn't move on Wednesday, and on Thursday my partner drives a couple of hours, mainly on a motorway, without issue. On Friday she sets off and shortly realises that she's got white smoke billowing out of the exhaust, engine seems fine otherwise and there's a car park just up the road where she can park safely so decides to stop there, by the time she gets there through the engine has started to lose power. Recovery vehicle called, engine oil is obviously in a bad state, almost none left and lots of burnt looking emulsion in there apparently.
Car is taken to a garage and that's where it's been for the last week. Getting a bit impatient to be honest as they're only just taking a proper look today, but they're busy with bookings so it is what it is, the point is that they haven't diagnosed the issue but they think it may be a fault with the turbo. At this point I'm assuming that I'm going to receive quite a large repair bill.
Which brings us to the main point of this thread. I know coincidences happen, but the car was running perfectly fine before the service, and I suspect that the mechanic who serviced the car may have put too much oil in the engine, which then caused the fault. Am waiting to see what the garage says about the issue and suspected cause, but obviously if they think that the fault could be a dodgy oil change, I'd quite like
to pay up for the repair. Any advice on how I go about this sort of thing? I guess the plan at the moment is to get as much information and evidence in writing from the garage that the car is at now, and forward it to
's complaint department, but I'm conscious that they could just turn around and say "car was fine when it left the shop, not our fault". Anything I should be doing now or be asking for to keep things as smooth as possible down the line?Mod edit, no name and shame please
Would also explain why there is no oil. Not going to be caused by "over filling it"
Garages tend not to over fill , if anything they under fill, because they make so much money on oil - saving 200ML across 5 cars a day, 5 days a week will add up!
Seems to be several Clio related issues today, maybe it's a Mayan calendar type thing!
ConnectionError said:
If it was a Renault doesnt it have an oil level indicator on the dash board
If there was a problem with the level would it not have highlighted this?
Not on the dashboard, have to check dipstick. Which I should have done really, but naively just assumed that this would have been checked at the end of the service by a professional.If there was a problem with the level would it not have highlighted this?
vaud said:
Too much oil? But almost none left?
Too much oil = high oil pressure = component fault = oil leak = no oil. As I understand it anyway. Exhaust was soaked with oil and when I say that smoke was billowing, I do mean billowing. edit: Of course, the issue is proving that the fault starts at "too much oil" and doesn't just start at a "component fault" that happened by coincidence.
Edited by Clio95 on Monday 1st August 13:53
Clio95 said:
ConnectionError said:
If it was a Renault doesnt it have an oil level indicator on the dash board
If there was a problem with the level would it not have highlighted this?
Not on the dashboard, have to check dipstick. Which I should have done really, but naively just assumed that this would have been checked at the end of the service by a professional.If there was a problem with the level would it not have highlighted this?
vaud said:
Too much oil? But almost none left?
Too much oil = high oil pressure = component fault = oil leak = no oil. As I understand it anyway. Exhaust was soaked with oil and when I say that smoke was billowing, I do mean billowing. edit: Of course, the issue is proving that the fault starts at "too much oil" and doesn't just start at a "component fault" that happened by coincidence.
Edited by Clio95 on Monday 1st August 13:53
If they over filled it you would see no noticeable pressure increase (ignoring the tiny head differnce).
It really sounds like a coincidence to me.
Is that the normal way the car lives it's days?
Sits at home for periods, or just does short journeys, and then might see a long motorway trip?
When was the last time the oil and filter had been changed?
Hopefully is a turbo, as although that's not the cheapest item to have a problem with, there are plenty worse items it could be.
Sits at home for periods, or just does short journeys, and then might see a long motorway trip?
When was the last time the oil and filter had been changed?
Hopefully is a turbo, as although that's not the cheapest item to have a problem with, there are plenty worse items it could be.
98elise said:
That's not how oil pressure works. The level doesn't dictate the pressure, the pump does.
If they over filled it you would see no noticeable pressure increase (ignoring the tiny head differnce).
It really sounds like a coincidence to me.
Keep in mind that I know nothing about this other than what I've read online over the last few days, but I read this while looking into possible causes of oil in the exhaust on turbo engined cars:If they over filled it you would see no noticeable pressure increase (ignoring the tiny head differnce).
It really sounds like a coincidence to me.
"If the oil level is too full there will be nowhere for the oil to flow, causing a build-up of oil pressure in the (turbo) bearing housing. This will cause oil to leak from both the turbine and compressor ends."
"If the oil level is higher than specified by the engine manufacturer, the oil could to be forced back up to the oil return pipe with the motion of the crank, restricting the flow. This will cause leaks from both ends"
Clio95 said:
Keep in mind that I know nothing about this other than what I've read online over the last few days, but I read this while looking into possible causes of oil in the exhaust on turbo engined cars:
"If the oil level is too full there will be nowhere for the oil to flow, causing a build-up of oil pressure in the (turbo) bearing housing. This will cause oil to leak from both the turbine and compressor ends."
"If the oil level is higher than specified by the engine manufacturer, the oil could to be forced back up to the oil return pipe with the motion of the crank, restricting the flow. This will cause leaks from both ends"
You've been told it's not related, and it's not - as I said, probably just failing turbo anyway , it's entirely possible, and unfortunate timing. "If the oil level is too full there will be nowhere for the oil to flow, causing a build-up of oil pressure in the (turbo) bearing housing. This will cause oil to leak from both the turbine and compressor ends."
"If the oil level is higher than specified by the engine manufacturer, the oil could to be forced back up to the oil return pipe with the motion of the crank, restricting the flow. This will cause leaks from both ends"
Stop googling to try and justify your viewpoint, it's like you've got this idea it was over filled and you're looking for evidence to that effect.
Clio95 said:
Hi all,
Let me set the stage. 17 plate, turbo-petrol Clio 4 with about 40k miles (out of warranty due to age), taken to a for an MOT and service two weeks ago, on the Tuesday. Car passes with a couple of advisories, only thing engine related was to replace spark plugs before the next service, which I was planning on swapping myself. Drive car home (literally a few hundred metres) without issue.
Car doesn't move on Wednesday, and on Thursday my partner drives a couple of hours, mainly on a motorway, without issue. On Friday she sets off and shortly realises that she's got white smoke billowing out of the exhaust, engine seems fine otherwise and there's a car park just up the road where she can park safely so decides to stop there, by the time she gets there through the engine has started to lose power. Recovery vehicle called, engine oil is obviously in a bad state, almost none left and lots of burnt looking emulsion in there apparently.
Car is taken to a garage and that's where it's been for the last week. Getting a bit impatient to be honest as they're only just taking a proper look today, but they're busy with bookings so it is what it is, the point is that they haven't diagnosed the issue but they think it may be a fault with the turbo. At this point I'm assuming that I'm going to receive quite a large repair bill.
Which brings us to the main point of this thread. I know coincidences happen, but the car was running perfectly fine before the service, and I suspect that the mechanic who serviced the car may have put too much oil in the engine, which then caused the fault. Am waiting to see what the garage says about the issue and suspected cause, but obviously if they think that the fault could be a dodgy oil change, I'd quite like to pay up for the repair.
Any advice on how I go about this sort of thing? I guess the plan at the moment is to get as much information and evidence in writing from the garage that the car is at now, and forward it to's complaint department, but I'm conscious that they could just turn around and say "car was fine when it left the shop, not our fault". Anything I should be doing now or be asking for to keep things as smooth as possible down the line?
Was the car in for an MOT, or a service, or both? It's unclear as you state both in the above?Let me set the stage. 17 plate, turbo-petrol Clio 4 with about 40k miles (out of warranty due to age), taken to a
for an MOT and service two weeks ago, on the Tuesday. Car passes with a couple of advisories, only thing engine related was to replace spark plugs before the next service, which I was planning on swapping myself. Drive car home (literally a few hundred metres) without issue.Car doesn't move on Wednesday, and on Thursday my partner drives a couple of hours, mainly on a motorway, without issue. On Friday she sets off and shortly realises that she's got white smoke billowing out of the exhaust, engine seems fine otherwise and there's a car park just up the road where she can park safely so decides to stop there, by the time she gets there through the engine has started to lose power. Recovery vehicle called, engine oil is obviously in a bad state, almost none left and lots of burnt looking emulsion in there apparently.
Car is taken to a garage and that's where it's been for the last week. Getting a bit impatient to be honest as they're only just taking a proper look today, but they're busy with bookings so it is what it is, the point is that they haven't diagnosed the issue but they think it may be a fault with the turbo. At this point I'm assuming that I'm going to receive quite a large repair bill.
Which brings us to the main point of this thread. I know coincidences happen, but the car was running perfectly fine before the service, and I suspect that the mechanic who serviced the car may have put too much oil in the engine, which then caused the fault. Am waiting to see what the garage says about the issue and suspected cause, but obviously if they think that the fault could be a dodgy oil change, I'd quite like
to pay up for the repair. Any advice on how I go about this sort of thing? I guess the plan at the moment is to get as much information and evidence in writing from the garage that the car is at now, and forward it to
's complaint department, but I'm conscious that they could just turn around and say "car was fine when it left the shop, not our fault". Anything I should be doing now or be asking for to keep things as smooth as possible down the line?Mod edit, no name and shame please
If just an MOT then the garage wouldn't have touched the oil.
Clio95 said:
98elise said:
That's not how oil pressure works. The level doesn't dictate the pressure, the pump does.
If they over filled it you would see no noticeable pressure increase (ignoring the tiny head differnce).
It really sounds like a coincidence to me.
Keep in mind that I know nothing about this other than what I've read online over the last few days, but I read this while looking into possible causes of oil in the exhaust on turbo engined cars:If they over filled it you would see no noticeable pressure increase (ignoring the tiny head differnce).
It really sounds like a coincidence to me.
"If the oil level is too full there will be nowhere for the oil to flow, causing a build-up of oil pressure in the (turbo) bearing housing. This will cause oil to leak from both the turbine and compressor ends."
"If the oil level is higher than specified by the engine manufacturer, the oil could to be forced back up to the oil return pipe with the motion of the crank, restricting the flow. This will cause leaks from both ends"
Either it's missing a lot of detail, or the person that wrote it doesn't understand how oil flows in an engine.
I'm not dismissing it entirely, it just needs a sound engineering explanation. "Nowhere for the oil to flow" makes no sense as there is nothing stopping the flow.
CarCrazyDad said:
You've been told it's not related, and it's not - as I said, probably just failing turbo anyway , it's entirely possible, and unfortunate timing.
Stop googling to try and justify your viewpoint, it's like you've got this idea it was over filled and you're looking for evidence to that effect.
I mean, with respect, I didn't come here asking for mechanical advice. And I think it's a bit odd to be so certain about what the fault is when you haven't actually seen the car yourself? The car is in a garage and obviously I am going to accept whatever they determine the issue and cause to be. I'm googling because ideally I'd like to have a better understanding of the issue when it's explained to me.Stop googling to try and justify your viewpoint, it's like you've got this idea it was over filled and you're looking for evidence to that effect.
At first I didn't even think that the fault could be due to the service, figured it was coincidence, but the recovery mechanic heard the symptoms and suggested that it could be due to overfilling of oil. That's where the idea was planted, and obviously if there's a chance that someone else could be liable for an expensive repair bill, I'm going to investigate what's required to go ahead with proving that liability. If the garage says it's a coincidence then fine, whatever, but if they find evidence of a dodgy service then I'd like to be prepared to move forward with that. Not sure why you're seemingly getting offended by that, feel free to speculate on the issue but if it seems like I'm not particularly interested in your mechanical advice, it's because I'm not.
Freakuk said:
Was the car in for an MOT, or a service, or both? It's unclear as you state both in the above?
If just an MOT then the garage wouldn't have touched the oil.
It was in for both an MOT and a service.If just an MOT then the garage wouldn't have touched the oil.
98elise said:
Where are those quotes from? The first one is very odd. Oil sits in the sump. It's pumped around the engine to where ever its needed and returns back to the sump by gravity.
Either it's missing a lot of detail, or the person that wrote it doesn't understand how oil flows in an engine.
I'm not dismissing it entirely, it just needs a sound engineering explanation. "Nowhere for the oil to flow" makes no sense as there is nothing stopping the flow.
Taken from here. Was just the first page I found after searching "oil in exhaust turbo" and it collaborated with what had been suggested, I'm no mechanic though so I'm just taking things at face value, if it's a load of crap I'm not exactly going to take it personally. Either it's missing a lot of detail, or the person that wrote it doesn't understand how oil flows in an engine.
I'm not dismissing it entirely, it just needs a sound engineering explanation. "Nowhere for the oil to flow" makes no sense as there is nothing stopping the flow.
For the MOT to start the tester needs to check the oil and coolant, thats why a car can and does fail - well test aborted when you cannot get under the bonnet.
You have not said if its the petrol or diesel engine but both are far from reliable, the diesel having turbo issues. A diesel can and will pick up on its engine oil and runaway until it goes bang. Under filling the engine will knock the bottom end out so it will run but sound like a bag of spanners, too much oil and it can find the weakest part and push it by past the weakest point, we have seen Fiats with less than a litre in and still run and volvo diesels with 2 litres above the max from failed DPF regens still run.
The max amount of oil we have taken out of a car was around 17 litres out of a mini. Yes it killed it. But it would still run, just smoke a little
I think in all honesty its just a coincidence, things can and do happen but people seem very keen on wanting to pass the blame on.
You have not said if its the petrol or diesel engine but both are far from reliable, the diesel having turbo issues. A diesel can and will pick up on its engine oil and runaway until it goes bang. Under filling the engine will knock the bottom end out so it will run but sound like a bag of spanners, too much oil and it can find the weakest part and push it by past the weakest point, we have seen Fiats with less than a litre in and still run and volvo diesels with 2 litres above the max from failed DPF regens still run.
The max amount of oil we have taken out of a car was around 17 litres out of a mini. Yes it killed it. But it would still run, just smoke a little
I think in all honesty its just a coincidence, things can and do happen but people seem very keen on wanting to pass the blame on.
Petty much every car was running fine up until the point it wasn't and whilst the timescale between running fine > garage > issues is quite short, I think I'm inclined to agree that you may have a hard time proving liability. You'd have probably been better the have the car diagnosed by an independent and then once the issue has been identified, then decide if it was something that a recent service and MOT may have caused or accelerated. But you never know how these things pan out, people can be quick to pass judgement and be proven wrong but first it needs diagnosed accurately.
Forums | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff