Being put off cheap cars because of common problems
Discussion
Many of you know that I enjoy bangernomics - buy a car with a long MOT and drive it until it becomes uneconomical to repair (my general guide is buy a car for £1k and if it costs more than about £500 then bin it).
I was thinking about slightly more expensive cars and the general consensus on them when things go wrong.
Let's take the Mercedes CL500. The usual issue is the suspension (ABC) failure. You can pick up a used CL500 for about £2500. To replace the suspension would cost £9000. However, you can replace it with a standard shocks/coil suspension for about £1500. So, consider this: would a CL500 with a standard suspension be worth £4000 to you?
What about an older Audi TT. You could pick up an older one for about £2k. I think the biggest issue with one that old would be the turbo. A replacement turbo would probably cost about £2k. So might an older Audi TT with a new turbo be worth £4k to you if you fancied a TT?
See what I'm getting at?
The next step is this - rather than buying the best example of a car you fancy, with the assumption that everything works fine - what if it doesn't? You'll feel daft for having spent 30% more. Instead, consider buying the cheapest working example, and just be prepared to spend a bit on getting it right. Some say it might be a false economy - but is it really? Just because you bought an R8 that was £8k more, it doesn't guarantee the mag ride will be fine for the next 5 years that you own the car. Maybe just buy the cheapest R8 and put £8k aside to replace the mag ride.
Am I a genius or a mad man?
I was thinking about slightly more expensive cars and the general consensus on them when things go wrong.
Let's take the Mercedes CL500. The usual issue is the suspension (ABC) failure. You can pick up a used CL500 for about £2500. To replace the suspension would cost £9000. However, you can replace it with a standard shocks/coil suspension for about £1500. So, consider this: would a CL500 with a standard suspension be worth £4000 to you?
What about an older Audi TT. You could pick up an older one for about £2k. I think the biggest issue with one that old would be the turbo. A replacement turbo would probably cost about £2k. So might an older Audi TT with a new turbo be worth £4k to you if you fancied a TT?
See what I'm getting at?
The next step is this - rather than buying the best example of a car you fancy, with the assumption that everything works fine - what if it doesn't? You'll feel daft for having spent 30% more. Instead, consider buying the cheapest working example, and just be prepared to spend a bit on getting it right. Some say it might be a false economy - but is it really? Just because you bought an R8 that was £8k more, it doesn't guarantee the mag ride will be fine for the next 5 years that you own the car. Maybe just buy the cheapest R8 and put £8k aside to replace the mag ride.
Am I a genius or a mad man?
I’ve just had a dilemma with our 2006 Audi A6 Avant. It failed on the front dampers. I did wonder whether it was worth sinking more money into it with 270,000 miles, not to mention it has other age related quirks. Back window regulators, rear parking sensors are duff. Someone dinged the front the other week and effed off
I went ahead because used car prices are silly. It still runs really well - V6 Diesel - nicer since the front dampers and drop links have been sorted. averages mid 40 mpgs, low 50s on a long run. Aside from a couple of marks, it spruces up well so I’m happy to use it more as a daily and wring some more miles out of it. I’d be happy to reach 300,000 if I can. It comes into its own for camping trips when almost every inch os filled with gear just about leaving space to get in and drive!
I went ahead because used car prices are silly. It still runs really well - V6 Diesel - nicer since the front dampers and drop links have been sorted. averages mid 40 mpgs, low 50s on a long run. Aside from a couple of marks, it spruces up well so I’m happy to use it more as a daily and wring some more miles out of it. I’d be happy to reach 300,000 if I can. It comes into its own for camping trips when almost every inch os filled with gear just about leaving space to get in and drive!
stogbandard said:
I’ve just had a dilemma with our 2006 Audi A6 Avant. It failed on the front dampers. I did wonder whether it was worth sinking more money into it with 270,000 miles, not to mention it has other age related quirks. Back window regulators, rear parking sensors are duff. Someone dinged the front the other week and effed off
I went ahead because used car prices are silly. It still runs really well - V6 Diesel - nicer since the front dampers and drop links have been sorted. averages mid 40 mpgs, low 50s on a long run. Aside from a couple of marks, it spruces up well so I’m happy to use it more as a daily and wring some more miles out of it. I’d be happy to reach 300,000 if I can. It comes into its own for camping trips when almost every inch os filled with gear just about leaving space to get in and drive!
That's the thing - if you know your car's issues (or lack thereof) then it's probably less risky to get it fixed than to buy another model and have to roll the dice again.I went ahead because used car prices are silly. It still runs really well - V6 Diesel - nicer since the front dampers and drop links have been sorted. averages mid 40 mpgs, low 50s on a long run. Aside from a couple of marks, it spruces up well so I’m happy to use it more as a daily and wring some more miles out of it. I’d be happy to reach 300,000 if I can. It comes into its own for camping trips when almost every inch os filled with gear just about leaving space to get in and drive!
I'm only getting rid of my diesel Merc because of the ULEZ expansion.
Hoofy said:
The next step is this - rather than buying the best example of a car you fancy, with the assumption that everything works fine - what if it doesn't? You'll feel daft for having spent 30% more. Instead, consider buying the cheapest working example, and just be prepared to spend a bit on getting it right. Some say it might be a false economy - but is it really? Just because you bought an R8 that was £8k more, it doesn't guarantee the mag ride will be fine for the next 5 years that you own the car. Maybe just buy the cheapest R8 and put £8k aside to replace the mag ride.
Am I a genius or a mad man?
You're far from mad Am I a genius or a mad man?
In some respects buying a cheaper car with potential problems allows you to put it right the way you want it put right. My Impreza for example came with a few faults which I rectified, and from that point I practiced preventative maintenance. It maybe didn't make sense from the "bangernomics" perspective but long term it has worked out well. Rather than always going for the cheapest fix which I did when I had my shedscort, with the Impreza I'll use genuine or OEM parts.
I think short term bangernomics then it's a case maybe of buy it, run it, fix it cheap then bin it once it gets terminal, for the more expensive stuff then maybe buy it, fix it properly and keep on top rather than go for one that already has the "issues" addressed - because very often there is an element of the unknown in that - anyway that's my take on things at least.
Hoofy said:
Sure - but it might be far from the cheapest. And there may be other issues. Guess it depends on how many common issues it has.
Hmmm, my experience is that the buying the cheapest will cost you more to put right than buying a sorted example. Imo buying the cheapest and replacing / improving stuff only actually works if you're a spanner monkey willing to use your time, knowledge and the right kit. If you're a work-shy desk jockey like me that occasionally does the odd summer DIY oil change on the driveway, the labour charges using pros means you end under water pretty quickly vs the 'get out price'.
The only exception is something you're emotionally invested in. Either your dream car or sentimental value - then you don't mind the costs and come up with all sorts of weird man maths to entirely justify it to yourself (and no one else
)Hoofy said:
MDMA . said:
Not sure where you’re pricing your turbos up from, but a rebuilt KO4 from a BAM engined MK1 TT is less than £500.
Even better! I was thinking of the fitting as well and found that price online.Door lock
Wiper mechanism
Rear earth
Coil Packs
Various boost pipes and valves
Dipstick tube
Thermostat
Stereo replaced
Battery
Tyres
Headlights
Sump off to clean oil pickup
Coolant tank
ECU (swapped one one with a stage one map)
Previous owner did the clutch, suspension parts, turbo brakes all round, Body Control/comfort Module, timing belt
Got bored, let it go cheap as had low compression on number 3.
Buy a good one, or stick to simpler stuff.
Hoofy said:
Let's take the Mercedes CL500. The usual issue is the suspension (ABC) failure. You can pick up a used CL500 for about £2500. To replace the suspension would cost £9000.
Only if every component in the system had failed and you took it to a Mercedes dealer. If you did that, you would be mad.Lots of scare stories are based on when the cars were relatively new and there were no alternatives to main dealer prices and oem parts. Things move on.
The spinner of plates said:
Hoofy said:
Sure - but it might be far from the cheapest. And there may be other issues. Guess it depends on how many common issues it has.
Hmmm, my experience is that the buying the cheapest will cost you more to put right than buying a sorted example. Imo buying the cheapest and replacing / improving stuff only actually works if you're a spanner monkey willing to use your time, knowledge and the right kit. If you're a work-shy desk jockey like me that occasionally does the odd summer DIY oil change on the driveway, the labour charges using pros means you end under water pretty quickly vs the 'get out price'.
The only exception is something you're emotionally invested in. Either your dream car or sentimental value - then you don't mind the costs and come up with all sorts of weird man maths to entirely justify it to yourself (and no one else
)J4CKO said:
Hoofy said:
MDMA . said:
Not sure where you’re pricing your turbos up from, but a rebuilt KO4 from a BAM engined MK1 TT is less than £500.
Even better! I was thinking of the fitting as well and found that price online.Door lock
Wiper mechanism
Rear earth
Coil Packs
Various boost pipes and valves
Dipstick tube
Thermostat
Stereo replaced
Battery
Tyres
Headlights
Sump off to clean oil pickup
Coolant tank
ECU (swapped one one with a stage one map)
Previous owner did the clutch, suspension parts, turbo brakes all round, Body Control/comfort Module, timing belt
Got bored, let it go cheap as had low compression on number 3.
Buy a good one, or stick to simpler stuff.
Unreal said:
Hoofy said:
Let's take the Mercedes CL500. The usual issue is the suspension (ABC) failure. You can pick up a used CL500 for about £2500. To replace the suspension would cost £9000.
Only if every component in the system had failed and you took it to a Mercedes dealer. If you did that, you would be mad.Lots of scare stories are based on when the cars were relatively new and there were no alternatives to main dealer prices and oem parts. Things move on.
I have an SL500 that I bought new in 2003 so of course have taken all the depreciation.
Have had a couple of expensive hits, (Xenon headlight unit and wiring harness), but am awaiting the dreaded ABC failure. If it happens it will be ore that the car is worth I expect but I like to old thing so I will probably just bite the bullet.
Have had a couple of expensive hits, (Xenon headlight unit and wiring harness), but am awaiting the dreaded ABC failure. If it happens it will be ore that the car is worth I expect but I like to old thing so I will probably just bite the bullet.
On the general point, which seems to be ‘buy the cheapest because stuff is going to go wrong anyway’ is flawed because much more stuff is likely to be f
ked on the cheapest examples.
At least on something more pricy you can expect the interior and bodywork to be in reasonable condition and for servicing to have been kept up.
And specifically about the Merc ABC; £9k is way off.
You are roughly looking at £1k a corner and £1k for the pump.
And these components usually go one at a time so you are looking at an occasional £1k ish hit if you are unlucky.
ked on the cheapest examples.At least on something more pricy you can expect the interior and bodywork to be in reasonable condition and for servicing to have been kept up.
And specifically about the Merc ABC; £9k is way off.
You are roughly looking at £1k a corner and £1k for the pump.
And these components usually go one at a time so you are looking at an occasional £1k ish hit if you are unlucky.
There is the other side of the coin to this thread though.I'm on my fourth car in 28 years. in 1994 a chap in the village died and because he had not had his car serviced at Mercedes the family had a job selling it. A £30,000 E30 with 12,000 miles for £14,000 seemed good sense. I kept it seven years, spent £500 in repairs over 100,000 miles, and sold it for £6,000. A stroke of fortune found a chap in Sussex selling brand new old model S202 220CDi estates for £17,000. I kept that one until 250,000 and sold it to a friend in 2013 for £4,000 when I went to Germany and bought an S204 C200CDi which I kept to 150,000 and now it is our shopping trolley. It had its first repair bill this year when a wheel sensor failed. I went back to Germany and bought another used S204, 2014 and 18,000 miles. Yesterday it had its first problem, a failed headlamp bulb. At a rough count I have spent more up front buying cars than in this thread, but my repair bills have amounted to less than £3,000 (aircon pump, front springs on the S202, £500 wheel sensors on S204 and now a headlamp bulb) and moreover we have two sturdy cars well amortised which should last us for many years to come. And all that over nearly 30 years.
Exactly why my last 2 cheap cars have been Saab 9-3. First one was a “I need a car quick”. Paid £500. It had a couple of common faults some of which could just get by. Eventually I got rid when shocks and chain needed doing.
Next Saab I went to look at was £900 but a V6 with 0 history. Guy said it’s got an ABS/TCS fault that comes on when in rains and been quoted £1k to fix. Couple of other common faults that I already had spares from with my previous.
I knew the fault wouldn’t cost £1k. Cost me £100 to sort the ABS fault which sorted the TCS. 2 years later still going strong with most of the common faults dealt with.
Equally I did buy a Honda Civic Type S 2.0 before and the guy had spent £2500 fixing it up and I paid £750 for the car when he wanted £1200!! Took it from 88k to 130k and only thing I did was a centre exhaust outside of normal servicing. Tyres and brakes lasted that whole time I had it. Best car I had for value for money.
Next Saab I went to look at was £900 but a V6 with 0 history. Guy said it’s got an ABS/TCS fault that comes on when in rains and been quoted £1k to fix. Couple of other common faults that I already had spares from with my previous.
I knew the fault wouldn’t cost £1k. Cost me £100 to sort the ABS fault which sorted the TCS. 2 years later still going strong with most of the common faults dealt with.
Equally I did buy a Honda Civic Type S 2.0 before and the guy had spent £2500 fixing it up and I paid £750 for the car when he wanted £1200!! Took it from 88k to 130k and only thing I did was a centre exhaust outside of normal servicing. Tyres and brakes lasted that whole time I had it. Best car I had for value for money.
Edited by Aiminghigh123 on Monday 26th September 07:22
Hoofy said:
MDMA . said:
Not sure where you’re pricing your turbos up from, but a rebuilt KO4 from a BAM engined MK1 TT is less than £500.
Even better! I was thinking of the fitting as well and found that price online.
I'm sure you can get Chineseum turbos on Ali Express for £200. Forums | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff