RE: Green light for ULEZ expansion
RE: Green light for ULEZ expansion
Friday 25th November 2022

Green light for ULEZ expansion

From August 2023 it'll cost you £12.50 to drive into Greater London in a non-compliant car...


The expanded ULEZ zone is coming. From August 29th next year the ULEZ will extend out to the Greater London Authority boundary, which, if you don’t live in or near London, falls within the M25. So cross that threshold at any time of the day or night and you’ll have to pay £12.50 if your vehicle isn’t a Euro 4 petrol or Euro 6 diesel. Those are the facts, but how do we feel about it? Arguments around the ULEZ have raged on both sides, but those against are hard to win because they go something like this:

"Do you want children to die?"

"Definitely not."

“Do you want children to be able to breathe cleaner air?”

“Oh yes.”

“Will the ULEZ help children breathe cleaner air?”

“I guess so.”

“Then are you in favour of widening the ULEZ zone?”

“Err, yes?”

Yet when London’s mayor, Sadiq Khan, ran a public consultation about extending the ULEZ, the response was overwhelming. Overall, 60 per cent of people said they weren’t in favour of it, and 80 per cent of workers in Outer London said no. And yet it’s happening.

I’m not actually against the ULEZ in principle. If it’s shown to work it makes sense, and there is data that indicates it’s doing something. One report in 2020 estimated that the ULEZ had reduced NOx emissions in the capital by 35 per cent. The trouble is that word ‘estimated’ and the fact the report was from Mayor of London’s website. Which is rather like marking your own homework.

Another report, produced by Imperial College, looked at London’s air pollution before and just after the rollout of the initial central London ULEZ in 2019. The average reduction of nitrogen dioxide concentrations was less than three per cent, and the effects on ozone and particulate matter (PM2.5) were ‘insignificant’. While air quality had improved, the report found that most of the improvement had actually occurred prior to the ULEZ being introduced.

As always, it’s easy to find one report that claims something’s great and another that says the opposite. But what really irks me is the idea of having a public consultation, to ask people what they think, then ignoring it. Public consultations cost the public money, so if there was never any intention to abide by it, why waste the money? And I know it wasn’t people voting in a referendum, but it all strikes me as rather undemocratic.

It's also an odd time to introduce this, in the midst of a very real cost of living crisis. Mayor Khan explained this had been a "key consideration" and it had "not been an easy decision" but added that "in the end, public health comes before political expediency".

There are some positives. There will be a £110m increase in the scrappage scheme fund; those who scrap polluting cars will be offered travel cards; and there will improvements to Greater London’s public transport network, which, it is accepted, isn't as prolific as it is in central London. According to the Mayor’s office, there will also be a grace period until 2027 for disabled drivers with non-compliant cars.

I hope the extended ULEZ does save lives, because then it is completely justified in my opinion. If not, it's a lot of unnecessary financial pain for an awful lot of people.


Author
Discussion

ChrisCh86

Original Poster:

1,128 posts

74 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
As an owner of two high-power petrol turbocharged cars, I have no particular opposition to ULEZ expanding to where I live. biggrin

Not until they make it electric-only... (which will come in 5+ years time) furious

Shabaza

290 posts

127 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
pure money making scheme, they didnt make enough off the fist time it was implemented, so decided to expand.
Easily approved when you can sell the Green credential card.

Most people living in the proposed areas will be fine.

Disproportionately effects those who typically buy sub 10k cars.
If everyone could afford a new car, theyd have one. So, as usual lets charge those who cant afford a newer car more money.



numtumfutunch

5,173 posts

168 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all

Isnt the Rangey in the first pic exempt?

MagicMonkey

100 posts

205 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
Whether you're a petrol, diesel or electric car owner; the result is still the same... Sadiq Khan is a massive Crispy Umbrella Never Twists!!!

shalmaneser

6,446 posts

225 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
This basically only affects old diesel cars, who cares about a 2008 320d.

Very much doubt anyone on the breadline is running a pre-2000 petrol car as the maintenance would be horrific, much more likely they're in a 2002 fiesta or whatever.

I was toying with the idea of a manual Maserati 4200 but it looks like it's not ULEZ which is a bit of a shame but I guess I'll just need to stick to the 996.

Donbot

4,194 posts

157 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
shalmaneser said:
This basically only affects old diesel cars, who cares about a 2008 320d.

Very much doubt anyone on the breadline is running a pre-2000 petrol car as the maintenance would be horrific, much more likely they're in a 2002 fiesta or whatever.

I was toying with the idea of a manual Maserati 4200 but it looks like it's not ULEZ which is a bit of a shame but I guess I'll just need to stick to the 996.
wow

Dombilano

1,446 posts

85 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
I'd be interested to know what percentage of cars entering greater London are older than 2006

Andrewph75

54 posts

181 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
Doesn't just affect old really diesel cars - have a 2013 330D estate owned from nearly new, use the train for commuting, car for weekends and trips away so only 50k miles. Couldn't get a petrol at the time as were so rare due to way market had moved with C02. So now facing chopping it in when years of life left - also rules out lots of 80s/90s classics that get sparing use. Need to plan for the transition and not force us into supposedly environmentally friendly choices when they are not as green as seem.

valvetronic

8 posts

47 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
There was a 2018 GLA report, which showed that, in Greater London, domestic boilers now account for more NOx than cars.

The NOx figure is that which determines whether your car is ULEZ compliant or not.

Why then won't Sadiq place a daily £12.50 charge for the use of your heating ?

(Could it be that it wouldn't be a very popular move ?)



[Domestic Boiler Emission Testing
Greater London Authority
Project reference: 60566063
Report reference: 60566063_1
November 2018]

Edited by valvetronic on Friday 25th November 15:28

valvetronic

8 posts

47 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
Andrewph75 said:
Doesn't just affect old really diesel cars - have a 2013 330D estate owned from nearly new, use the train for commuting, car for weekends and trips away so only 50k miles. Couldn't get a petrol at the time as were so rare due to way market had moved with C02. So now facing chopping it in when years of life left - also rules out lots of 80s/90s classics that get sparing use. Need to plan for the transition and not force us into supposedly environmentally friendly choices when they are not as green as seem.
mentioned in the consultation report, the Environmental Agency...

"....estimates that the expansion of ULEZ would generate an average of an additional 36,600 tonnes of scrappage waste per annum in the first few years after implementation. It could also result in an increase in fly tipping or illegal waste operations...

Far Cough

2,481 posts

198 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
Just had a letter by email as I objected to it as I am sure many others did.

It was no surprise that he would completely ignore the public likely to be affected and steam rollered it through anyway.

The letter starts off ....."....the mayor's decision was informed by the consultation process blah blah blah".

Oh really , seems contrary to what is being reported by the BBC as 80% of people in the affected area were in opposition.

So the question is . How do we get this decision reversed ?

Also posted on the main ULEZ thread

PistonTim

729 posts

169 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
Andrewph75 said:
Doesn't just affect old really diesel cars - have a 2013 330D estate owned from nearly new, use the train for commuting, car for weekends and trips away so only 50k miles. Couldn't get a petrol at the time as were so rare due to way market had moved with C02. So now facing chopping it in when years of life left - also rules out lots of 80s/90s classics that get sparing use. Need to plan for the transition and not force us into supposedly environmentally friendly choices when they are not as green as seem.
I have a 2013 X1 2.0D which I use for commuting to Croydon from the South Coast regularly, its pretty comfy, automatic, nice place to hack along the A/M23 economically and soak up some miles. Petrol of the same would be horrific on fuel.

I'll probably just suck it up and pay the charge when I have to drive.

I'd catch the train but peak Croydon / London tickets are an absolute rip-off.

valvetronic

8 posts

47 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
Dombilano said:
I'd be interested to know what percentage of cars entering greater London are older than 2006
some BMW and Merecedes and possibly other similar marques may be compliant from 2000 / 2001 onwards, even though officially registered as Euro-3. Many car companies run a homologation department, which will provide you with a letter, for free, that will exempt your vehicle, once uploaded to TFL. However, it will likely only be for Petrol vehicles as Diesels need to be Euro-6, but worth checking for late Euro-5 Diesels, just in case.

3795mpower

508 posts

160 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
I own a 31 year old classic.
Fuel injection and has cats.

It gets taken to handful of shows per year.
£12.50 a pop is annoying when I do <500 miles per year in it.

It is going up for sale, to be replaced by a 40 year old carb fed classic
which will belch out 10 times the CO and I will do more miles in as it's ULEZ exempt.

Go figure.

mattvanders

500 posts

56 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
You telling me I can’t drive my Seat Leon diesel in to the m25 zone without paying but planes can fly into london City Airport and Heathrow Airport with out paying?

valvetronic

8 posts

47 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
shalmaneser said:
This basically only affects old diesel cars, who cares about a 2008 320d.

Very much doubt anyone on the breadline is running a pre-2000 petrol car as the maintenance would be horrific, much more likely they're in a 2002 fiesta or whatever.

I was toying with the idea of a manual Maserati 4200 but it looks like it's not ULEZ which is a bit of a shame but I guess I'll just need to stick to the 996.
You'd be wrong. I, for instance have a meticulously maintained 1996 Merc. some of my neighbours have similar vintage cars. I only do less than 3,000 miles a year,

PistonTim

729 posts

169 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
mattvanders said:
You telling me I can’t drive my Seat Leon diesel in to the m25 zone without paying but planes can fly into london City Airport and Heathrow Airport with out paying?
Got it.

valvetronic

8 posts

47 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
Far Cough said:
...Oh really , seems contrary to what is being reported by the BBC as 80% of people in the affected area were in opposition....
if you follow the link to the published MTS Report you will find the following in the report:

1.) "...4.3.1. We received five petitions during the consultation period. Each of the five petitions were opposed to the proposed expansion of ULEZ. None of the petitions referenced the Proposed MTS Revision and therefore have not been included in this report.

Some of these petitions had as many as 100,000 signatures against.

2.) Page 105 of the report shows that 1149 private individuals who took part were for the MTS / ULEZ expansion, while 4600 were against.

Ursicles

1,091 posts

272 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
Be good to have Khan show that all the £ coming in from ULEZ is purely for helping improve the air, and not just filling his pocket to fund the shortfall from the utter disaster in the way he has run TFL.

Mark_Blanchard

1,042 posts

285 months

Friday 25th November 2022
quotequote all
My 1970 Dodge Challenger V8 does 8 mpg and I imagine the emissions are off the scale and lots of people will die from even getting close it from clouds of smoke and rubber, but it can go into ULEZ zone for free.

My Ferrari 360 on the other hand has better emissions and I'll need to pay for that.