Is free choice now the enemy of society?
Discussion
Chatting over a coffee with a few riding friends earlier. A GT3 RS drove past, in traffic, driving normally. One of the guys responded ‘w
ker, bet its never seen a track’. Pointless.
Conversation ensued about the validity and point/pointlessness of car choice and the choice of only using a fraction of it's capability. The RS that never gets used more than a base 911 would. The Supercar that never goes more than half its stop speed. The SUV that never get taken off road. The pick-up that never has something in its load bay. The 7-seater that never carries more than 4 - all cars that perform an ownership function that a notably inferior model couldn’t perform just as admirably.
The attitude of "F*ck it’, let someone drive the car they just want" was, thankfully, the majority opinion, but increasingly the wasteful consumption argument came out of driving a car that was never used above the ability of a lesser model/car.
This debate is being played out on here, today, in the RR Vs M60i chat and the Huracan Steroid-o thing.
If buying 'pointless' cars is automotive free-choice, is it also now the enemy of society?
ker, bet its never seen a track’. Pointless.Conversation ensued about the validity and point/pointlessness of car choice and the choice of only using a fraction of it's capability. The RS that never gets used more than a base 911 would. The Supercar that never goes more than half its stop speed. The SUV that never get taken off road. The pick-up that never has something in its load bay. The 7-seater that never carries more than 4 - all cars that perform an ownership function that a notably inferior model couldn’t perform just as admirably.
The attitude of "F*ck it’, let someone drive the car they just want" was, thankfully, the majority opinion, but increasingly the wasteful consumption argument came out of driving a car that was never used above the ability of a lesser model/car.
This debate is being played out on here, today, in the RR Vs M60i chat and the Huracan Steroid-o thing.
If buying 'pointless' cars is automotive free-choice, is it also now the enemy of society?
No, it's all down to social media whereby anyone thinks they are 'entitled' to voice an opinion.
Consequently their opinion is correct and if you want to spend your money on a GT3 then you are a c--t.
Just have a quick scan of NP+E. You are wrong and i can prove it by pasting all these articles to back up what I'm saying.
There is no polite society anymore. It's all confrontational. Comments are made to provoke a reaction.
Consequently their opinion is correct and if you want to spend your money on a GT3 then you are a c--t.
Just have a quick scan of NP+E. You are wrong and i can prove it by pasting all these articles to back up what I'm saying.
There is no polite society anymore. It's all confrontational. Comments are made to provoke a reaction.
What's ironic with attitudes like the one you mention OP is that I suspect that person doesn't live their life based on what they need but also what they like. Do they need a smartphone when a basic old Nokia makes calls? Do they need fibre broadband? Multiple subscriptions to streaming? etc. etc.
I suspect the answer is no but they like those things, so they have them.
Same goes for us car guys. Yes, you can get by with a car that gets to 60 in 15 seconds but it's fun if they do it in 4 isn't it? You can go round a corner in a Dacia Sandero but a Fiesta ST will do it more convincingly?
Don't get me wrong there are plenty of people out there who tick the boxes on cars (and other things) purely because they can afford it. I met a guy with a 911 and he literally had no clue about the spec, he just ticked every box because it was expensive, but you couldn't pre-judge based on just him driving the car and secondly, it's his money if it makes him happy so be it.
Social media has a big part to play in people being sanctimonious and claiming they live this humble life they feel they should, whilst relishing in all the excess we are privileged to have nowadays.
I suspect the answer is no but they like those things, so they have them.
Same goes for us car guys. Yes, you can get by with a car that gets to 60 in 15 seconds but it's fun if they do it in 4 isn't it? You can go round a corner in a Dacia Sandero but a Fiesta ST will do it more convincingly?
Don't get me wrong there are plenty of people out there who tick the boxes on cars (and other things) purely because they can afford it. I met a guy with a 911 and he literally had no clue about the spec, he just ticked every box because it was expensive, but you couldn't pre-judge based on just him driving the car and secondly, it's his money if it makes him happy so be it.
Social media has a big part to play in people being sanctimonious and claiming they live this humble life they feel they should, whilst relishing in all the excess we are privileged to have nowadays.
It was ever thus, and quite logically so if looked at in extremis.
If someone just loves killing people, society should quite rightly curtail that activity.
The debate comes over where you place the limits on free choice vs causing harm to others. I hope that very few people would advocate free choice in the above circumstance, but car choice straddles the line for a lot of people I think.
It's the classic want vs. need argument. Nobody needs a 911, though in a generally wealthy and prosperous country like the UK most people would see a 911 as a not unreasonable thing to own given the opportunity. The GT3 version maybe a little more contentious but probably still in the same realm of socially acceptable, especially if driven courteously and with consideration for other road users.
Things like massive SUVs are more contentious still due to the real harm (whether real or not) that many people see them as causing due to their size and weight on top of all the things that some people don't like about 911s etc (their cost, the stereotypical drivers etc)
I should add that the above are not my views, I still enjoy seeing the punchier 911s out and about (the basic models are nice too of course but not really exciting to see any more) and would have a range rover if I could afford one, however I run out of free choice tolerance when it comes to badly modified ste like 'stance', stretched tyres etc. That sort of thing should be kept to shows and tracks and off public roads
If someone just loves killing people, society should quite rightly curtail that activity.
The debate comes over where you place the limits on free choice vs causing harm to others. I hope that very few people would advocate free choice in the above circumstance, but car choice straddles the line for a lot of people I think.
It's the classic want vs. need argument. Nobody needs a 911, though in a generally wealthy and prosperous country like the UK most people would see a 911 as a not unreasonable thing to own given the opportunity. The GT3 version maybe a little more contentious but probably still in the same realm of socially acceptable, especially if driven courteously and with consideration for other road users.
Things like massive SUVs are more contentious still due to the real harm (whether real or not) that many people see them as causing due to their size and weight on top of all the things that some people don't like about 911s etc (their cost, the stereotypical drivers etc)
I should add that the above are not my views, I still enjoy seeing the punchier 911s out and about (the basic models are nice too of course but not really exciting to see any more) and would have a range rover if I could afford one, however I run out of free choice tolerance when it comes to badly modified s
te like 'stance', stretched tyres etc. That sort of thing should be kept to shows and tracks and off public roadssxmwht said:
Julian Scott said:
Chatting over a coffee with a few riding friends earlier. A GT3 RS drove past, in traffic, driving normally. One of the guys responded ‘wker, bet its never seen a track’. Pointless.
That friend is a jealous little ker, bet its never seen a track’. Pointless., plain and simple. Drop him/her/itWhich is probably what the GT3RS was doing.
I wouldn’t ban people having things unless they use them properly but am always a bit disappointed if I find out, particularly with cars that the owner has never used them for a purpose if they have been designed with one in mind.
Think I have done so with all of my cars.
It is a pet hate of mine on social media where people post pics of their latest car or their collection just as a look what I’ve got sort of thing but never doing anything cool with them. Obviously they are doing way better at life than me being able to afford these things but I just feel they are wasting it all.
Think I have done so with all of my cars.
It is a pet hate of mine on social media where people post pics of their latest car or their collection just as a look what I’ve got sort of thing but never doing anything cool with them. Obviously they are doing way better at life than me being able to afford these things but I just feel they are wasting it all.
Jordie Barretts sock said:
No, it's all down to social media whereby anyone thinks they are 'entitled' to voice an opinion.
Consequently their opinion is correct and if you want to spend your money on a GT3 then you are a c--t.
Just have a quick scan of NP+E. You are wrong and i can prove it by pasting all these articles to back up what I'm saying.
There is no polite society anymore. It's all confrontational. Comments are made to provoke a reaction.
Don't think society or people have changed much over time tbh. Consequently their opinion is correct and if you want to spend your money on a GT3 then you are a c--t.
Just have a quick scan of NP+E. You are wrong and i can prove it by pasting all these articles to back up what I'm saying.
There is no polite society anymore. It's all confrontational. Comments are made to provoke a reaction.
As my old man said to me
"the internet is a great invention that allows ideas, information and collaboration to transmit far and wide at great speed.
But it has also given the village idiots a platform to congregate and be heard... and when they find each other it emboldens them...
Back in the old days society regulated them better... insomuch as the pub would just tell them to STFU and go back to lurking harmlessly in the corner.
And if that didn't work, someone would usually punch them in the face. And that absolutely did the trick."
Different era
The spinner of plates said:
Don't think society or people have changed much over time tbh.
As my old man said to me
"the internet is a great invention that allows ideas, information and collaboration to transmit far and wide at great speed.
But it has also given the village idiots a platform to congregate and be heard... and when they find each other it emboldens them...
Back in the old days society regulated them better... insomuch as the pub would just tell them to STFU and go back to lurking harmlessly in the corner.
And if that didn't work, someone would usually punch them in the face. And that absolutely did the trick."
Different era
That about sums it up As my old man said to me
"the internet is a great invention that allows ideas, information and collaboration to transmit far and wide at great speed.
But it has also given the village idiots a platform to congregate and be heard... and when they find each other it emboldens them...
Back in the old days society regulated them better... insomuch as the pub would just tell them to STFU and go back to lurking harmlessly in the corner.
And if that didn't work, someone would usually punch them in the face. And that absolutely did the trick."
Different era
bqf said:
Alex_225 said:
Do they need fibre broadband?
Yes, yes, they bloody do need Fibre Broadband Although if that's what he's using the internet for, he should probably have his internet disconnected entirely
2 points on this
1. The GT3 RS owner in question might spend his or her summer in Europe touring the continent's best race tracks. Who knows! Yes, many of them will never see a track but I bet quite a few of them do. I've no evidence whatsoever for this but I'd cautiously bet that of all the brands that make these track-biased specials, proportionally it's the Porsches that get used most as intended.
2. If we all had this attitude of only owning the car we truly need, this hobby of ours would be incredibly dull.
1. The GT3 RS owner in question might spend his or her summer in Europe touring the continent's best race tracks. Who knows! Yes, many of them will never see a track but I bet quite a few of them do. I've no evidence whatsoever for this but I'd cautiously bet that of all the brands that make these track-biased specials, proportionally it's the Porsches that get used most as intended.
2. If we all had this attitude of only owning the car we truly need, this hobby of ours would be incredibly dull.
deadtom said:
The debate comes over where you place the limits on free choice vs causing harm to others.
Exactly right.For stuff like car ownership and use, I'd suggest that a lot of the harm done to others can be offset, so the trick is to make sure that the cost of offsetting the harm is priced into the activity itself. E.g. if you choose an inefficient car and use it a lot, you pay a load of money to undo that damage. If you choose a moped instead, you do less damage and therefore have less reparation to pay. This seems inherently fair and preserves individual choice. Price in the externalities and let market forces do their thing.
sxmwht said:
Julian Scott said:
Chatting over a coffee with a few riding friends earlier. A GT3 RS drove past, in traffic, driving normally. One of the guys responded ‘wker, bet its never seen a track’. Pointless.
That friend is a jealous little ker, bet its never seen a track’. Pointless., plain and simple. Drop him/her/itJust because someone has a potent vehicle doesn't mean they have to drive it everywhere at 10/10ths. One of my cars has a top speed over 170mph, but I never rag around built up areas because I'm not a knob. End result, I often get tailgated in built up areas. Maybe the tailgaters think I'm a knob for doing 30 when the car would easily hit three figures on those same roads?
I wonder how many races the friend has won against people who didn't realise they were in a race?
Julian Scott said:
Chatting over a coffee with a few riding friends earlier. A GT3 RS drove past, in traffic, driving normally. One of the guys responded ‘wker, bet its never seen a track’. Pointless.
Conversation ensued about the validity and point/pointlessness of car choice and the choice of only using a fraction of it's capability. The RS that never gets used more than a base 911 would. The Supercar that never goes more than half its stop speed. The SUV that never get taken off road. The pick-up that never has something in its load bay. The 7-seater that never carries more than 4 - all cars that perform an ownership function that a notably inferior model couldn’t perform just as admirably.
The attitude of "F*ck it’, let someone drive the car they just want" was, thankfully, the majority opinion, but increasingly the wasteful consumption argument came out of driving a car that was never used above the ability of a lesser model/car.
This debate is being played out on here, today, in the RR Vs M60i chat and the Huracan Steroid-o thing.
If buying 'pointless' cars is automotive free-choice, is it also now the enemy of society?
Sounds more like,ker, bet its never seen a track’. Pointless.Conversation ensued about the validity and point/pointlessness of car choice and the choice of only using a fraction of it's capability. The RS that never gets used more than a base 911 would. The Supercar that never goes more than half its stop speed. The SUV that never get taken off road. The pick-up that never has something in its load bay. The 7-seater that never carries more than 4 - all cars that perform an ownership function that a notably inferior model couldn’t perform just as admirably.
The attitude of "F*ck it’, let someone drive the car they just want" was, thankfully, the majority opinion, but increasingly the wasteful consumption argument came out of driving a car that was never used above the ability of a lesser model/car.
This debate is being played out on here, today, in the RR Vs M60i chat and the Huracan Steroid-o thing.
If buying 'pointless' cars is automotive free-choice, is it also now the enemy of society?
"Wow look at that nice shiny Porsche, I havent got a nice shiny Porsche and that makes me a bit unhappy, I can potentially redress this and make myself feel better by calling the owner of that car names and imply I would use it much more effectively despite not having a clue about the car, its owner or usage". Many of them tend to get sat in collections and never used.
Might have been on the way to a track, and also, despite being fun, track driving is actually quite pointless if you think about it rationally, its going round and round in circles using much more fuel than you need to, wearing components, risking damage and wearing tyres out. The phrase "Track work" makes me laugh, as its as far from actual work as pretty much any pursuit can be, its entirely optional. Nobody except actual racing drivers ever said "Whoa, what a day, I was made to drive very quickly round in circles sixty odd times today in my 150 grand Porsche which cost me over a grand, but bills got to be paid"
In terms of waste, its entirely down to how the owner uses and enjoys it, funny how nobody says a Dacia is "wasted" because the owner barely uses it and only on their own to go to the shops
"Bet he only does 2k a year in that, and only on local runs usually under 10 miles, 14 grand, wasted I tell ya !"
Its jealousy and lack of a filter, its a bit like those folk that see someone they find attractive and cant help saying or doing something to alert you, or them to the fact.
Alex_225 said:
What's ironic with attitudes like the one you mention OP is that I suspect that person doesn't live their life based on what they need but also what they like. Do they need a smartphone when a basic old Nokia makes calls? Do they need fibre broadband? Multiple subscriptions to streaming? etc. etc.
I suspect the answer is no but they like those things, so they have them.
Same goes for us car guys. Yes, you can get by with a car that gets to 60 in 15 seconds but it's fun if they do it in 4 isn't it? You can go round a corner in a Dacia Sandero but a Fiesta ST will do it more convincingly?
Don't get me wrong there are plenty of people out there who tick the boxes on cars (and other things) purely because they can afford it. I met a guy with a 911 and he literally had no clue about the spec, he just ticked every box because it was expensive, but you couldn't pre-judge based on just him driving the car and secondly, it's his money if it makes him happy so be it.
Social media has a big part to play in people being sanctimonious and claiming they live this humble life they feel they should, whilst relishing in all the excess we are privileged to have nowadays.
I agree - I guess the point being made, as I took it, was that if you never accelerate faster than 8 secs to 60, why buy a car then can do it in 4? etc.I suspect the answer is no but they like those things, so they have them.
Same goes for us car guys. Yes, you can get by with a car that gets to 60 in 15 seconds but it's fun if they do it in 4 isn't it? You can go round a corner in a Dacia Sandero but a Fiesta ST will do it more convincingly?
Don't get me wrong there are plenty of people out there who tick the boxes on cars (and other things) purely because they can afford it. I met a guy with a 911 and he literally had no clue about the spec, he just ticked every box because it was expensive, but you couldn't pre-judge based on just him driving the car and secondly, it's his money if it makes him happy so be it.
Social media has a big part to play in people being sanctimonious and claiming they live this humble life they feel they should, whilst relishing in all the excess we are privileged to have nowadays.
RB Will said:
I wouldn’t ban people having things unless they use them properly but am always a bit disappointed if I find out, particularly with cars that the owner has never used them for a purpose if they have been designed with one in mind.
Think I have done so with all of my cars.
It is a pet hate of mine on social media where people post pics of their latest car or their collection just as a look what I’ve got sort of thing but never doing anything cool with them. Obviously they are doing way better at life than me being able to afford these things but I just feel they are wasting it all.
Do they need to do something cool with them though? Is the ownership experience not enough if they think it is?Think I have done so with all of my cars.
It is a pet hate of mine on social media where people post pics of their latest car or their collection just as a look what I’ve got sort of thing but never doing anything cool with them. Obviously they are doing way better at life than me being able to afford these things but I just feel they are wasting it all.
Forums | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff