Diesel remap recommendations?
Discussion
Least PH thread ever! 
Does anyone have a recommendation for who to get to turn up the wick on Mrs Bill's new (to her) SMax? It's the wheezy 138bhp variant so needs a bit of help. I assume these things aren't marque specific but before I get superchips involved I thought I'd ask.
Thanks (and sorry...) but it does mean I can get something less family focussed...
Does anyone have a recommendation for who to get to turn up the wick on Mrs Bill's new (to her) SMax? It's the wheezy 138bhp variant so needs a bit of help. I assume these things aren't marque specific but before I get superchips involved I thought I'd ask.
Thanks (and sorry...) but it does mean I can get something less family focussed...
Bill said:
Least PH thread ever!
Does anyone have a recommendation for who to get to turn up the wick on Mrs Bill's new (to her) SMax? It's the wheezy 138bhp variant so needs a bit of help. I assume these things aren't marque specific but before I get superchips involved I thought I'd ask.
Thanks (and sorry...) but it does mean I can get something less family focussed...
Not 100% marque specific. But it does depend on the ECU and if it can be easily written too or if it requires an a piggyback chip or some other solution.Does anyone have a recommendation for who to get to turn up the wick on Mrs Bill's new (to her) SMax? It's the wheezy 138bhp variant so needs a bit of help. I assume these things aren't marque specific but before I get superchips involved I thought I'd ask.
Thanks (and sorry...) but it does mean I can get something less family focussed...
There are also different kinds of maps, some are really poor, some much better. Some will do just the engine, while others may also be able to alter the gearbox programming (if an automatic), which can often make a car feel a lot better. Most new cars also employ torque limiting tactics, so engines are restricted in low gears making way less than the Peak numbers. Removing these restrictions can also make a big difference to how a car drives.
There seems to be loads claiming to remap every car under the Sun. I'd probably work on the basis of, if it looks too good to be true, it probably is. Some of the power claims are quite amusing.
300bhp/ton said:
Most new cars also employ torque limiting tactics, so engines are restricted in low gears making way less than the Peak numbers. Removing these restrictions can also make a big difference to how a car drives.
This is very true, and I think you do need to think hard why those limits were put in place. Here is a hint: it wasn't out of spite.I've got a great track record of breaking remapped cars, so I'm inclined to think that hundreds of engineers at a multi billion pound company with thousands of years of accumulated experience and some of the finest and most expensive engineering education available in the world using absolute cutting edge techniques to model and design components in incredible detail, who then subject them to hundreds of thousands of hours of rigorous testing over what equates to a 150k+ mile lifetime might know more about the sensible limits of the hardware they spent the best part of a decade designing than some blokes in a shed in Leicester. Maybe.
I've used "well proven" and "safe" remaps from "well respected" tuners with "known safe limits" to destroy "bullet proof" gearboxes and engines.
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 7th February 15:19
brillomaster said:
Really depends where you're based. If you're anywhere near banbury then angel tuning have done great work on my last 3 turbocharged bmws.
I'm near Poole, I don't think it's worth me travelling far particularly quite a few companies come to you. I'm not thinking of getting it on a rolling road! 
stickleback123 said:
This is very true, and I think you do need to think hard why those limits were put in place. Here is a hint: it wasn't out of spite.
I've got a great track record of breaking remapped cars, so I'm inclined to think that hundreds of engineers at a multi billion pound company with thousands of years of accumulated experience and some of the finest and most expensive engineering education available in the world using absolute cutting edge techniques to model and design components in incredible detail, who then subject them to hundreds of thousands of hours of rigorous testing over what equates to a 150k+ mile lifetime might know more about the sensible limits of the hardware they spent the best part of a decade designing than some blokes in a shed in Leicester. Maybe.
I've used "well proven" and "safe" remaps from "well respected" tuners with "known safe limits" to destroy "bullet proof" gearboxes and engines.
I fully get what you're saying, but Ford do the same engine in the same car in 138, 163 and 188bhp (iirc) tunes and I'm not planning to push beyond that.I've got a great track record of breaking remapped cars, so I'm inclined to think that hundreds of engineers at a multi billion pound company with thousands of years of accumulated experience and some of the finest and most expensive engineering education available in the world using absolute cutting edge techniques to model and design components in incredible detail, who then subject them to hundreds of thousands of hours of rigorous testing over what equates to a 150k+ mile lifetime might know more about the sensible limits of the hardware they spent the best part of a decade designing than some blokes in a shed in Leicester. Maybe.
I've used "well proven" and "safe" remaps from "well respected" tuners with "known safe limits" to destroy "bullet proof" gearboxes and engines.
Bill said:
stickleback123 said:
This is very true, and I think you do need to think hard why those limits were put in place. Here is a hint: it wasn't out of spite.
I've got a great track record of breaking remapped cars, so I'm inclined to think that hundreds of engineers at a multi billion pound company with thousands of years of accumulated experience and some of the finest and most expensive engineering education available in the world using absolute cutting edge techniques to model and design components in incredible detail, who then subject them to hundreds of thousands of hours of rigorous testing over what equates to a 150k+ mile lifetime might know more about the sensible limits of the hardware they spent the best part of a decade designing than some blokes in a shed in Leicester. Maybe.
I've used "well proven" and "safe" remaps from "well respected" tuners with "known safe limits" to destroy "bullet proof" gearboxes and engines.
I fully get what you're saying, but Ford do the same engine in the same car in 138, 163 and 188bhp (iirc) tunes and I'm not planning to push beyond that.I've got a great track record of breaking remapped cars, so I'm inclined to think that hundreds of engineers at a multi billion pound company with thousands of years of accumulated experience and some of the finest and most expensive engineering education available in the world using absolute cutting edge techniques to model and design components in incredible detail, who then subject them to hundreds of thousands of hours of rigorous testing over what equates to a 150k+ mile lifetime might know more about the sensible limits of the hardware they spent the best part of a decade designing than some blokes in a shed in Leicester. Maybe.
I've used "well proven" and "safe" remaps from "well respected" tuners with "known safe limits" to destroy "bullet proof" gearboxes and engines.
Just because the same engine block is available with different power levels it would be unwise to assume that their internals and the rest of the powertrain are identical.
It's your car, of course, but you need to take the expert claims of the aftermarket with a council gritting lorry full of salt.
Here are some posts on here that seem relevant:
mike9009 said:
poing said:
The Ford 1.0 Turbo is in 3 flavours: 100bhp, 125bhp and 140bhp.
Some people claim various differences but I've yet to see any proof they havek any actual mechanical differences, in fact some tuners class them the same for tuning.
The exhaust turbine wheel is different for a start. I designed the process to make each. The 100bhp is made from IN713c and the 125bhp and 140bhp are made from MARM246. Significant difference in high temp performance and creep resistance between the materials.Some people claim various differences but I've yet to see any proof they havek any actual mechanical differences, in fact some tuners class them the same for tuning.
Mike
I've been working for BMW in the development of diesel engines for around 20 years. The units of the M47 / M57 series and their successors N47 / M57 also belong to my “children”, for whom three patents are in my name.
In the past, you could still afford to develop your own engine, almost your own range of engines, for almost every car. That is no longer possible today. Today one is dependent on so-called identical parts - this is the only way that modern engines can still be manufactured reasonably inexpensively. BMW only builds six-cylinder with 3 liters displacement - to conclude that all engines would be the same, just because they have the same displacement, is already very narrowly thought and unfortunately the common tuner thinking.
In 1993 the development of a modern direct injection diesel engine began. To do this, you no longer build entire engines, but only a so-called master cylinder. This has 84mm bore and 90mm stroke for all CR diesels on BMW. Four of these cylinders make the 2l diesel, six of them the 3l and eight of them - who would have thought - the V8, which was once available in the 7 series.
Today, each of these cylinders for diesel is available in three versions: UL, OL and TOP.
UL stands for lower power / torque requirements, the pistons consist e.g. of a simple aluminum alloy, the crankshaft is simply forged and sintered connecting rods are used. With this you can cover powers up to 25kw or 75Nm per cylinder and this variant is used e.g. x16d, x18d and x25d (except F10 from 2011)
OL stands for upper power / torque requirements, the cylinder tracks are honored several times, there are forged connecting rods and the bearings of the connecting rods and crankshaft are sputter bearings. This means that requirements of up to 35kw per cylinder or 100Nm can be met and this basic cylinder is used in the x20d, x30d.
TOP is for high performance requirements with a specially post-treated KW and laser-machined cylinder liners. This enables the nominal speed to be increased and the injection pressure to be increased. This basic cylinder is used in the x23d, 525d from 2011 and in the x35d and x40d models.
The motors are identical in mechanical dimensions, but not in terms of the materials used:
UL models: (25d-6Zyl), 18d, etc.) Mahle type series 124, piston with 0.6% CU, magnetic injectors,
OL models: (20d, 30d) Mahle type series 148, pistons with 1.2% CU, piezo injectors, rail pressure up to 1800 bar, connecting rods and crankshafts made of different materials
TOP models (23d, 35d, 50d) Mahle type series 174, various other modifications
Example piston:
The pistons of the OL have a higher copper and a higher chromium content. The higher copper content ensures better heat conduction from the combustion chamber into the piston crown cooling. Chromium makes the piston more stable at the higher combustion pressures of the OL.
The price of the pistons differs considerably, so you save every penny.
The two main additives in pistons are copper (improves heat transfer) and chrome (improves strength at high pressures and temperatures. The stupid thing is: chrome, copper and aluminum have such different melting points and densities that these three substances are not simply cast can without separating.
- The 124 is cheaper because it is the only one that can still be manufactured using the die casting process, as the copper content is less than 1%. That is no longer possible with the other two. The advantage of die casting is that there is no lost shape
- the 148 is manufactured using the centrifugal casting process. The production time is longer, the follow-up is more complex.
- The 174 has 2% copper and 6% chromium - that's nothing more with liquid alloys. This is a wrought alloy and the piston itself is forged. That makes the piston expensive - with spare parts, however, the purchase price is rather secondary, since the storage costs become the problem over time.
Since the pistons are mechanically identical, the piston of the OL or TOP can also be used as a replacement part for the UL. Saves storage costs and with spare parts the price is of secondary importance anyway.
When it comes to manufacturing costs, however, it makes a difference if you don't just do it with the pistons.
It is correct that the 25d is throttled by the control unit, but you also have to because the components in the version used are not designed for the power and, above all, the higher torque. Almost all supercharged diesel engines can do more thermally than they can handle mechanically - that's exactly what chip tuning is based on.
Now the smart people come with their chips because they think that all motors are the same - they all have the same parts
Edited by anonymous-user on Tuesday 7th February 15:38
stickleback123 said:
This was what I read before:
I've been working for BMW in the development of diesel engines for around 20 years. The units of the M47 / M57 series and their successors N47 / M57 also belong to my “children”, for whom three patents are in my name.
In the past, you could still afford to develop your own engine, almost your own range of engines, for almost every car. That is no longer possible today. Today one is dependent on so-called identical parts - this is the only way that modern engines can still be manufactured reasonably inexpensively. BMW only builds six-cylinder with 3 liters displacement - to conclude that all engines would be the same, just because they have the same displacement, is already very narrowly thought and unfortunately the common tuner thinking.
In 1993 the development of a modern direct injection diesel engine began. To do this, you no longer build entire engines, but only a so-called master cylinder. This has 84mm bore and 90mm stroke for all CR diesels on BMW. Four of these cylinders make the 2l diesel, six of them the 3l and eight of them - who would have thought - the V8, which was once available in the 7 series.
Today, each of these cylinders for diesel is available in three versions: UL, OL and TOP.
UL stands for lower power / torque requirements, the pistons consist e.g. of a simple aluminum alloy, the crankshaft is simply forged and sintered connecting rods are used. With this you can cover powers up to 25kw or 75Nm per cylinder and this variant is used e.g. x16d, x18d and x25d (except F10 from 2011)
OL stands for upper power / torque requirements, the cylinder tracks are honored several times, there are forged connecting rods and the bearings of the connecting rods and crankshaft are sputter bearings. This means that requirements of up to 35kw per cylinder or 100Nm can be met and this basic cylinder is used in the x20d, x30d.
TOP is for high performance requirements with a specially post-treated KW and laser-machined cylinder liners. This enables the nominal speed to be increased and the injection pressure to be increased. This basic cylinder is used in the x23d, 525d from 2011 and in the x35d and x40d models.
The motors are identical in mechanical dimensions, but not in terms of the materials used:
UL models: (25d-6Zyl), 18d, etc.) Mahle type series 124, piston with 0.6% CU, magnetic injectors,
OL models: (20d, 30d) Mahle type series 148, pistons with 1.2% CU, piezo injectors, rail pressure up to 1800 bar, connecting rods and crankshafts made of different materials
TOP models (23d, 35d, 50d) Mahle type series 174, various other modifications
Example piston:
The pistons of the OL have a higher copper and a higher chromium content. The higher copper content ensures better heat conduction from the combustion chamber into the piston crown cooling. Chromium makes the piston more stable at the higher combustion pressures of the OL.
The price of the pistons differs considerably, so you save every penny.
The two main additives in pistons are copper (improves heat transfer) and chrome (improves strength at high pressures and temperatures. The stupid thing is: chrome, copper and aluminum have such different melting points and densities that these three substances are not simply cast can without separating.
- The 124 is cheaper because it is the only one that can still be manufactured using the die casting process, as the copper content is less than 1%. That is no longer possible with the other two. The advantage of die casting is that there is no lost shape
- the 148 is manufactured using the centrifugal casting process. The production time is longer, the follow-up is more complex.
- The 174 has 2% copper and 6% chromium - that's nothing more with liquid alloys. This is a wrought alloy and the piston itself is forged. That makes the piston expensive - with spare parts, however, the purchase price is rather secondary, since the storage costs become the problem over time.
Since the pistons are mechanically identical, the piston of the OL or TOP can also be used as a replacement part for the UL. Saves storage costs and with spare parts the price is of secondary importance anyway.
When it comes to manufacturing costs, however, it makes a difference if you don't just do it with the pistons.
It is correct that the 25d is throttled by the control unit, but you also have to because the components in the version used are not designed for the power and, above all, the higher torque. Almost all supercharged diesel engines can do more thermally than they can handle mechanically - that's exactly what chip tuning is based on.
Now the smart people come with their chips because they think that all motors are the same - they all have the same parts
Great to share that knowledge - thank you. I've been working for BMW in the development of diesel engines for around 20 years. The units of the M47 / M57 series and their successors N47 / M57 also belong to my “children”, for whom three patents are in my name.
In the past, you could still afford to develop your own engine, almost your own range of engines, for almost every car. That is no longer possible today. Today one is dependent on so-called identical parts - this is the only way that modern engines can still be manufactured reasonably inexpensively. BMW only builds six-cylinder with 3 liters displacement - to conclude that all engines would be the same, just because they have the same displacement, is already very narrowly thought and unfortunately the common tuner thinking.
In 1993 the development of a modern direct injection diesel engine began. To do this, you no longer build entire engines, but only a so-called master cylinder. This has 84mm bore and 90mm stroke for all CR diesels on BMW. Four of these cylinders make the 2l diesel, six of them the 3l and eight of them - who would have thought - the V8, which was once available in the 7 series.
Today, each of these cylinders for diesel is available in three versions: UL, OL and TOP.
UL stands for lower power / torque requirements, the pistons consist e.g. of a simple aluminum alloy, the crankshaft is simply forged and sintered connecting rods are used. With this you can cover powers up to 25kw or 75Nm per cylinder and this variant is used e.g. x16d, x18d and x25d (except F10 from 2011)
OL stands for upper power / torque requirements, the cylinder tracks are honored several times, there are forged connecting rods and the bearings of the connecting rods and crankshaft are sputter bearings. This means that requirements of up to 35kw per cylinder or 100Nm can be met and this basic cylinder is used in the x20d, x30d.
TOP is for high performance requirements with a specially post-treated KW and laser-machined cylinder liners. This enables the nominal speed to be increased and the injection pressure to be increased. This basic cylinder is used in the x23d, 525d from 2011 and in the x35d and x40d models.
The motors are identical in mechanical dimensions, but not in terms of the materials used:
UL models: (25d-6Zyl), 18d, etc.) Mahle type series 124, piston with 0.6% CU, magnetic injectors,
OL models: (20d, 30d) Mahle type series 148, pistons with 1.2% CU, piezo injectors, rail pressure up to 1800 bar, connecting rods and crankshafts made of different materials
TOP models (23d, 35d, 50d) Mahle type series 174, various other modifications
Example piston:
The pistons of the OL have a higher copper and a higher chromium content. The higher copper content ensures better heat conduction from the combustion chamber into the piston crown cooling. Chromium makes the piston more stable at the higher combustion pressures of the OL.
The price of the pistons differs considerably, so you save every penny.
The two main additives in pistons are copper (improves heat transfer) and chrome (improves strength at high pressures and temperatures. The stupid thing is: chrome, copper and aluminum have such different melting points and densities that these three substances are not simply cast can without separating.
- The 124 is cheaper because it is the only one that can still be manufactured using the die casting process, as the copper content is less than 1%. That is no longer possible with the other two. The advantage of die casting is that there is no lost shape
- the 148 is manufactured using the centrifugal casting process. The production time is longer, the follow-up is more complex.
- The 174 has 2% copper and 6% chromium - that's nothing more with liquid alloys. This is a wrought alloy and the piston itself is forged. That makes the piston expensive - with spare parts, however, the purchase price is rather secondary, since the storage costs become the problem over time.
Since the pistons are mechanically identical, the piston of the OL or TOP can also be used as a replacement part for the UL. Saves storage costs and with spare parts the price is of secondary importance anyway.
When it comes to manufacturing costs, however, it makes a difference if you don't just do it with the pistons.
It is correct that the 25d is throttled by the control unit, but you also have to because the components in the version used are not designed for the power and, above all, the higher torque. Almost all supercharged diesel engines can do more thermally than they can handle mechanically - that's exactly what chip tuning is based on.
Now the smart people come with their chips because they think that all motors are the same - they all have the same parts
Edited by stickleback123 on Tuesday 7th February 15:38
Now the enthusiasts on the site want to know what we can push a B58 engine to without it grenading
West Yorkshire tuning would be where I'd be taking it. They do alot of fords. People travelling all over the UK.
Your comment about not putting it on a rolling road or wanting to travel far is the reason most people have bad experiences with remaps. The rolling road will give you more insight into what the car is doing before and after tuning. Logging all sorts of data. You want a healthy engine to start with. Im not overly bothered by power figures I'm more interested in what the car is doing on the graph
Your comment about not putting it on a rolling road or wanting to travel far is the reason most people have bad experiences with remaps. The rolling road will give you more insight into what the car is doing before and after tuning. Logging all sorts of data. You want a healthy engine to start with. Im not overly bothered by power figures I'm more interested in what the car is doing on the graph
I'd speak to owners with the same engine and see who is recommended in the ford community.
don't go to one of these "£150-200 man in a van who does all brands".
I've spent ££££ on maps over the years for VAG//Porsche and you do get what you pay for. This became apparent when I bought a run around which had a map on it already from a local man in a van who since has set up a premises with rolling road etc. The file was requesting 2.0bar boost all the way across the rev range when the max the turbo could take was 1.7bar. When I questioned this they blocked me. The car was very smokey as well, I got it redone by at trusted tuner, it made better power and a lot less smoke.
Superchips are no longer the same company as they used to be, they are also now called Remap Kingz.
don't go to one of these "£150-200 man in a van who does all brands".
I've spent ££££ on maps over the years for VAG//Porsche and you do get what you pay for. This became apparent when I bought a run around which had a map on it already from a local man in a van who since has set up a premises with rolling road etc. The file was requesting 2.0bar boost all the way across the rev range when the max the turbo could take was 1.7bar. When I questioned this they blocked me. The car was very smokey as well, I got it redone by at trusted tuner, it made better power and a lot less smoke.
Superchips are no longer the same company as they used to be, they are also now called Remap Kingz.
Forums | General Gassing | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff