Detuned Modern Engines
Discussion
My 1.6 biturbo Vivaro is quite cariike to drive and at 120bhp with very low down torque it's rnore sprightly than I'd have expected. Revving it like a petrol makes absolutely no difference to speed though, just makes a louder (horrible diesel) noise and uses more fuel.
Peculiar things, diseasels.
Peculiar things, diseasels.
David_M said:
The Mazda Syactiv 2.0 petrol exists in several levels of tune, and I understand that the mechanicals are all the same - eg Mazda 3 (previous generation) - 120bhp and 165bhp versions, plus i think a 145bhp version in one of the mini SUV shapes?
We had a post from an OEM powertrain engineer recently who affirmed that they're absolutely not all the same internally, even when the spares catalogue might say it.The lower-powered cars had different crank, rods and piston materials to save costs from new.
There was an engine in one generation of BMW 1-series where the most powerful variant was almost double the power of the least, entirely down to firmware. So the least powerful model was hilariously low powered but just a remap away from being quite sprightly.
The 6.2l C63 was given a restrictive airbox to ensure it was slower than the E63... Same engine but choked.
Then finally the 2.8T in GM products - with the least powerful map it produced just 230bhp from a 2.8 with VVT, sodium cooled valves, variable length intake and a twin scroll turbo. Seemed an odd choice to use a relatively expensive and complex V6 to do what a 4-pot 2.0 was capable of at the time, but that was when you needed a V6 model in the Vectra/Mondeo class of car (I think Ford were the first to cave when they stopped doing V6 Mondeos) and they needed to keep the VXR as the sportiest model.
The 6.2l C63 was given a restrictive airbox to ensure it was slower than the E63... Same engine but choked.
Then finally the 2.8T in GM products - with the least powerful map it produced just 230bhp from a 2.8 with VVT, sodium cooled valves, variable length intake and a twin scroll turbo. Seemed an odd choice to use a relatively expensive and complex V6 to do what a 4-pot 2.0 was capable of at the time, but that was when you needed a V6 model in the Vectra/Mondeo class of car (I think Ford were the first to cave when they stopped doing V6 Mondeos) and they needed to keep the VXR as the sportiest model.
Baldchap said:
My 1.6 biturbo Vivaro is quite cariike to drive and at 120bhp with very low down torque it's rnore sprightly than I'd have expected. Revving it like a petrol makes absolutely no difference to speed though, just makes a louder (horrible diesel) noise and uses more fuel.
Peculiar things, diseasels.
Random post....Peculiar things, diseasels.
donkmeister said:
There was an engine in one generation of BMW 1-series where the most powerful variant was almost double the power of the least, entirely down to firmware. So the least powerful model was hilariously low powered but just a remap away from being quite sprightly.
I think that will be the 114i powered by a 1.6 N13 available in the 116i and 118i; supposedly came with 100 BHP and then Celtic Tuning's Stage 3 remap putting it at 203 BHP.Mr Tidy said:
The 3 litre BMW N52 engine in the 130i hatch had 265bhp, but the Coupe and Cabriolet were called the 125i even though they had the same engine!
Just 218bhp due to mapping.
Nope , 125 doesn't have a variable geometry intake system like a 130. Just 218bhp due to mapping.
As always far too many people quick to oversimplify things. Same with the VW turbo engines the 20vt 150hp versus 225hp are radically different the 200hp tfsi versus 230hp tfsi are also far more different than just a map.
aka_kerrly said:
Nope , 125 doesn't have a variable geometry intake system like a 130.
As always far too many people quick to oversimplify things. Same with the VW turbo engines the 20vt 150hp versus 225hp are radically different the 200hp tfsi versus 230hp tfsi are also far more different than just a map.
Are you sure about the 125i? I thought the 128i had a different intake system compared to the 130i. 3 stage manifold is present with the 125i, but not the 128i.As always far too many people quick to oversimplify things. Same with the VW turbo engines the 20vt 150hp versus 225hp are radically different the 200hp tfsi versus 230hp tfsi are also far more different than just a map.
Everywhere I’ve researched says that it’s just been detuned.
Source: https://www.1addicts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7...
Edited by konster296 on Monday 27th February 07:08
Edited by konster296 on Monday 27th February 07:37
The later N53 3 litre BMW engine dropped from 272bhp to 218bhp due to a restrictive map, and loss of variable geometry inlet (single stage instead of three stage)
Don't think the 1 series got this engine, but the thinking is similar.
I can see why car manufacturers do this- it is to create market share at different segments of demand (taking into account insurance, mpg and standard options) , but without the hassle of additional design costs, and having to support a different engines.
Annoying for me as a 525i owner, I have identical mgp and insurance costs of an equivalent 530i, but not the nippyness.
I can see this practice continuing right up until the last ice car rolls of the production line, and it's probably even easier for electric cars to scale up (or down?) power.
Aren't mercedes now wanting a monthly subscription for the performance pack? Thank god noone thought of that earlier.
Don't think the 1 series got this engine, but the thinking is similar.
I can see why car manufacturers do this- it is to create market share at different segments of demand (taking into account insurance, mpg and standard options) , but without the hassle of additional design costs, and having to support a different engines.
Annoying for me as a 525i owner, I have identical mgp and insurance costs of an equivalent 530i, but not the nippyness.
I can see this practice continuing right up until the last ice car rolls of the production line, and it's probably even easier for electric cars to scale up (or down?) power.
Aren't mercedes now wanting a monthly subscription for the performance pack? Thank god noone thought of that earlier.
Gompo said:
donkmeister said:
There was an engine in one generation of BMW 1-series where the most powerful variant was almost double the power of the least, entirely down to firmware. So the least powerful model was hilariously low powered but just a remap away from being quite sprightly.
I think that will be the 114i powered by a 1.6 N13 available in the 116i and 118i; supposedly came with 100 BHP and then Celtic Tuning's Stage 3 remap putting it at 203 BHP.
t:Bloke said:
I've been working for BMW in the development of diesel engines for around 20 years. The units of the M47 / M57 series and their successors N47 / M57 also belong to my “children”, for whom three patents are in my name.
In the past, you could still afford to develop your own engine, almost your own range of engines, for almost every car. That is no longer possible today. Today one is dependent on so-called identical parts - this is the only way that modern engines can still be manufactured reasonably inexpensively. BMW only builds six-cylinder with 3 liters displacement - to conclude that all engines would be the same, just because they have the same displacement, is already very narrowly thought and unfortunately the common tuner thinking.
In 1993 the development of a modern direct injection diesel engine began. To do this, you no longer build entire engines, but only a so-called master cylinder. This has 84mm bore and 90mm stroke for all CR diesels on BMW. Four of these cylinders make the 2l diesel, six of them the 3l and eight of them - who would have thought - the V8, which was once available in the 7 series.
Today, each of these cylinders for diesel is available in three versions: UL, OL and TOP.
UL stands for lower power / torque requirements, the pistons consist e.g. of a simple aluminum alloy, the crankshaft is simply forged and sintered connecting rods are used. With this you can cover powers up to 25kw or 75Nm per cylinder and this variant is used e.g. x16d, x18d and x25d (except F10 from 2011)
OL stands for upper power / torque requirements, the cylinder tracks are honored several times, there are forged connecting rods and the bearings of the connecting rods and crankshaft are sputter bearings. This means that requirements of up to 35kw per cylinder or 100Nm can be met and this basic cylinder is used in the x20d, x30d.
TOP is for high performance requirements with a specially post-treated KW and laser-machined cylinder liners. This enables the nominal speed to be increased and the injection pressure to be increased. This basic cylinder is used in the x23d, 525d from 2011 and in the x35d and x40d models.
The motors are identical in mechanical dimensions, but not in terms of the materials used:
UL models: (25d-6Zyl), 18d, etc.) Mahle type series 124, piston with 0.6% CU, magnetic injectors,
OL models: (20d, 30d) Mahle type series 148, pistons with 1.2% CU, piezo injectors, rail pressure up to 1800 bar, connecting rods and crankshafts made of different materials
TOP models (23d, 35d, 50d) Mahle type series 174, various other modifications
Example piston:
The pistons of the OL have a higher copper and a higher chromium content. The higher copper content ensures better heat conduction from the combustion chamber into the piston crown cooling. Chromium makes the piston more stable at the higher combustion pressures of the OL.
The price of the pistons differs considerably, so you save every penny.
The two main additives in pistons are copper (improves heat transfer) and chrome (improves strength at high pressures and temperatures. The stupid thing is: chrome, copper and aluminum have such different melting points and densities that these three substances are not simply cast can without separating.
- The 124 is cheaper because it is the only one that can still be manufactured using the die casting process, as the copper content is less than 1%. That is no longer possible with the other two. The advantage of die casting is that there is no lost shape
- the 148 is manufactured using the centrifugal casting process. The production time is longer, the follow-up is more complex.
- The 174 has 2% copper and 6% chromium - that's nothing more with liquid alloys. This is a wrought alloy and the piston itself is forged. That makes the piston expensive - with spare parts, however, the purchase price is rather secondary, since the storage costs become the problem over time.
Since the pistons are mechanically identical, the piston of the OL or TOP can also be used as a replacement part for the UL. Saves storage costs and with spare parts the price is of secondary importance anyway.
When it comes to manufacturing costs, however, it makes a difference if you don't just do it with the pistons.
It is correct that the 25d is throttled by the control unit, but you also have to because the components in the version used are not designed for the power and, above all, the higher torque. Almost all supercharged diesel engines can do more thermally than they can handle mechanically - that's exactly what chip tuning is based on.
Now the smart people come with their chips because they think that all motors are the same - they all have the same parts
In the past, you could still afford to develop your own engine, almost your own range of engines, for almost every car. That is no longer possible today. Today one is dependent on so-called identical parts - this is the only way that modern engines can still be manufactured reasonably inexpensively. BMW only builds six-cylinder with 3 liters displacement - to conclude that all engines would be the same, just because they have the same displacement, is already very narrowly thought and unfortunately the common tuner thinking.
In 1993 the development of a modern direct injection diesel engine began. To do this, you no longer build entire engines, but only a so-called master cylinder. This has 84mm bore and 90mm stroke for all CR diesels on BMW. Four of these cylinders make the 2l diesel, six of them the 3l and eight of them - who would have thought - the V8, which was once available in the 7 series.
Today, each of these cylinders for diesel is available in three versions: UL, OL and TOP.
UL stands for lower power / torque requirements, the pistons consist e.g. of a simple aluminum alloy, the crankshaft is simply forged and sintered connecting rods are used. With this you can cover powers up to 25kw or 75Nm per cylinder and this variant is used e.g. x16d, x18d and x25d (except F10 from 2011)
OL stands for upper power / torque requirements, the cylinder tracks are honored several times, there are forged connecting rods and the bearings of the connecting rods and crankshaft are sputter bearings. This means that requirements of up to 35kw per cylinder or 100Nm can be met and this basic cylinder is used in the x20d, x30d.
TOP is for high performance requirements with a specially post-treated KW and laser-machined cylinder liners. This enables the nominal speed to be increased and the injection pressure to be increased. This basic cylinder is used in the x23d, 525d from 2011 and in the x35d and x40d models.
The motors are identical in mechanical dimensions, but not in terms of the materials used:
UL models: (25d-6Zyl), 18d, etc.) Mahle type series 124, piston with 0.6% CU, magnetic injectors,
OL models: (20d, 30d) Mahle type series 148, pistons with 1.2% CU, piezo injectors, rail pressure up to 1800 bar, connecting rods and crankshafts made of different materials
TOP models (23d, 35d, 50d) Mahle type series 174, various other modifications
Example piston:
The pistons of the OL have a higher copper and a higher chromium content. The higher copper content ensures better heat conduction from the combustion chamber into the piston crown cooling. Chromium makes the piston more stable at the higher combustion pressures of the OL.
The price of the pistons differs considerably, so you save every penny.
The two main additives in pistons are copper (improves heat transfer) and chrome (improves strength at high pressures and temperatures. The stupid thing is: chrome, copper and aluminum have such different melting points and densities that these three substances are not simply cast can without separating.
- The 124 is cheaper because it is the only one that can still be manufactured using the die casting process, as the copper content is less than 1%. That is no longer possible with the other two. The advantage of die casting is that there is no lost shape
- the 148 is manufactured using the centrifugal casting process. The production time is longer, the follow-up is more complex.
- The 174 has 2% copper and 6% chromium - that's nothing more with liquid alloys. This is a wrought alloy and the piston itself is forged. That makes the piston expensive - with spare parts, however, the purchase price is rather secondary, since the storage costs become the problem over time.
Since the pistons are mechanically identical, the piston of the OL or TOP can also be used as a replacement part for the UL. Saves storage costs and with spare parts the price is of secondary importance anyway.
When it comes to manufacturing costs, however, it makes a difference if you don't just do it with the pistons.
It is correct that the 25d is throttled by the control unit, but you also have to because the components in the version used are not designed for the power and, above all, the higher torque. Almost all supercharged diesel engines can do more thermally than they can handle mechanically - that's exactly what chip tuning is based on.
Now the smart people come with their chips because they think that all motors are the same - they all have the same parts
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 27th February 13:37
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