Tuesday 14th March 2023

Alliance forms behind opposition to EU engine ban

Transport minister meeting suggests proposed combustion engine phaseout the 'wrong approach'

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A couple of weeks ago you may remember we reported on the delayed vote that would have finally enshrined the 2035 combustion engine phaseout in EU law. Well, things have apparently gathered pace since then - and not in the direction the continent’s lawmakers would have preferred. You might recall that it was Germany - specifically, its Transport Minister - that was responsible for thrusting a what-about-synthetic-fuel stick into the EU’s spokes ahead of what was supposed to be a rubber stamping of previously agreed legislation. 

Well, on Monday, like John Wayne forming a posse, Volker Missing - or Volker-dawg, as we’ve taken to calling him in the office - found some support from other transport ministers. And not just a few either. Italy, the Czech Republic, Germany, Poland, Romania, Hungary and Slovakia are said to have attended the discussions in Berlin, and the meeting of like minds was sufficiently productive for Reuters to suggest that ‘an alliance’ of countries opposed to the 2035 deadline had now formed. 

"The proposal needs changes urgently," drawled Volker-dawg. "A ban on the combustion engine, when it can run in a climate-neutral way, seems a wrong approach for us.” The ‘us’ he’s referring to there is obviously his minister posse - but inevitably he can count on support from a number of large carmakers, too (Porsche reiterated its participation in synthetic fuel research on Monday, too) and many if not most in the PH forums. Clearly emboldened by the talks, Volker-dawg added that assembled nations - or Justice League, as we’ve taken to calling them in the office - wanted an entirely separate category of combustion-engine cars that would be permitted to run on carbon-neutral fuel after 2035. 

Given the last-minute nature of the opposition (very unusual in EU machinations), the evident level of support for fundamentally tweaking the synthetic fuel provision is obviously significant. And the Justice League didn’t stop there either. Additional reports suggest the ministers also discussed weakening the stringent emission limits proposed by the forthcoming Euro 7 law, complaining that the recommended timetable for the changes were ‘unrealistic’. Rather than coming into force in mid-2025, the Justice League was proposing a four-year period for the law to take full effect so that the costly burden on manufacturers (and thereafter, customers) might be reduced. Is there nothing these guys can't do? Watch this space. 

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• Final EU vote on 2035 engine phaseout delayed
• E-fuel prices of less than $2 per litre 'possible'

[jimbobarooney_d]

Regardless of your position, calculations or stance - there is no denying that for a "problem" the scale of the one we now face, we need multiple solutions and not a one size fits all. Yes, electric cars are better for the world today (based on lifetime usage, taking into account the 10tonnes or so of CO2 created during production and the CO2 created from the production of oil). BUT.

Combustion engines have a future. The ban is totally ludicrous and poorly thought through. The opportunities with additional fuel sources are tremendous, and mean for those (such as myself) who don't enjoy driving electric cars may have something to look forward to

Here's hoping common sense prevails and we get to enjoy the sweet, sweet joys of ICE for much longer.

[Gecko1978]

Two things 1) this is I assume protecting German car makers 2) I guess they are nit really talking about 911s and R8s more buses lorries and vans maybe VW has said look see that stuff you have in your house minster says what stuff VW all if it plus bricks and motor well we can't get it to you in the back of an ID4

[Matt_T]

Does the EU leglislation ban ICEs running hydrogen?

[5lab]

isn't the easy approach to say that all cars sold after 2035 have to have odd triangular pump nozzels, and only hydrogen-based-carbon-neutral fuels are allowed to be sold through that nozel. It won't stop people who really want to run their ICE on petrol (although likely engine optomising would make that break pretty fast) - but it would stop normal cars being sold as ICE (as the carbon neutral fuel is expensive), and stop the likes of ferrari & porsche complaining too much?

[Olibol]

Most of these ‘carbon neutral’ synthetic fuels still involve pumping CO2 into the atmosphere and are incredibly energy intensive to create. I really hope the EU stands firm.

Just realised this is the first time I’ve ever felt slightly positive about the fact we’re nolonger in the EU. I’m very conflicted now!

[J4CKO]

Matt_T said:

Does the EU leglislation ban ICEs running hydrogen?

Think its a ban on "Combustion Engines", so whether they run on Petrol, Diesel, Hydrogen or E-Fuel.

I personally cant see Hydrogen taking off for passenger cars, folk go on about BEV adoption and the lack of infrastructure, then, somewhat bizarrely in the next breath suggest Hydrogen which really doesn't have any significant infrastructure, 14 stations I believe.

Then you need to produce Hydrogen, which is very energy intensive, then you need to transport it around and store it and its pretty tricky stuff to store as its quite volatile and a bit of an escapologist due to the molecules being so tiny.

Then your combustion engine is the same as current petrol and diesel, i.e. a third the efficiency of an electric motor or thereabouts, you get the low emissions bit but that same energy used to crack water into Hydrogen would make a pure EV travel like 5 or more times as far, might be even more than that.

I love internal combustion engines, have no desire for an EV, but when car enthusiasts suggest Hydrogen as saving the day it always reminds me of Alan Partridge suggesting "Monkey Tennis" in a vain last ditch attempt to get a second TV series, all evidence points to BEV unless something changes massively, a blue Taycan just drove past as I typed that to underline it, never seen a hydrogen powered car in the wild as far as I am aware.

Batteries will improve over time, already happening, the BEV is here to stay, its not perfect but Hydrogen, for passenger cars just seems like a non starter.

[RacerMike]

J4CKO said:

Matt_T said:

Does the EU leglislation ban ICEs running hydrogen?

Think its a ban on "Combustion Engines", so whether they run on Petrol, Diesel, Hydrogen or E-Fuel.

I personally cant see Hydrogen taking off for passenger cars, folk go on about BEV adoption and the lack of infrastructure, then, somewhat bizarrely in the next breath suggest Hydrogen which really doesn't have any significant infrastructure, 14 stations I believe.

Then you need to produce Hydrogen, which is very energy intensive, then you need to transport it around and store it and its pretty tricky stuff to store as its quite volatile and a bit of an escapologist due to the molecules being so tiny.

Then your combustion engine is the same as current petrol and diesel, i.e. a third the efficiency of an electric motor or thereabouts, you get the low emissions bit but that same energy used to crack water into Hydrogen would make a pure EV travel like 5 or more times as far, might be even more than that.

I love internal combustion engines, have no desire for an EV, but when car enthusiasts suggest Hydrogen as saving the day it always reminds me of Alan Partridge suggesting "Monkey Tennis" in a vain last ditch attempt to get a second TV series, all evidence points to BEV unless something changes massively, a blue Taycan just drove past as I typed that to underline it, never seen a hydrogen powered car in the wild as far as I am aware.

Batteries will improve over time, already happening, the BEV is here to stay, its not perfect but Hydrogen, for passenger cars just seems like a non starter.

This.

There is a niche market for those of us who want to own weekend cars. GT4s/GT3s etc sell in (comparatively) tiny numbers and will not cause climate change if the majority of the fleet is EV. And whilst synthetic fuels are not a solution for mass transport, it may be for those of us who wish to enjoy driving...

[LasseV]

Matt_T said:

Does the EU leglislation ban ICEs running hydrogen?

No. Cars need to be a zero emissions but there is no ICE ban. Fossil fuel ban yes. Problem is synthetic fuels, Germany and others does want to use them in the future. Frans Timmermann even said, that hydrogen ICE will be a big part in EU:s heavy duty transport sector.

Only fool believes BEV only future in Europe.

[dunnoreally]

I've made peace with the fact propulsion in new cars is going to change one way or the other before too long. My view is that EVs aren't really better or worse in terms of how they drive, just different. No reason why they can't be fun in their own right. More than one way to skin a cat.

Frankly, things like mandatory lane keeping and speed limit "assists" and BMW's monthly subscription model and endless extra complexity and the rising costs that brings worry me far more than what new cars are powered by.

[Debaser]

Nice to see a bit of common sense, I hope they succeed. I'd vote for a UK lawmaker who thought like this.

[romac]

The headline and article are misleading

The EU is not proposing a ban on Combustion Engines:

EU said:

...law to effectively ban the sale of new petrol and diesel cars in the European Union from 2035... ...to ensure that by 2050, the transport sector can become carbon-neutral.

So, according to that, Hydrogen and "e-fuels" will be permitted. As others have said, we need a mix of solutions for the future proposals. Horses for courses.

We (the UK) are not in the EU, but they will continue to be a leading trading partner and a big influence on world eco-politics.

[JayEcho]

@Olibol - On yer bike mate.... literally! lol

Why do you have an account on PistonHeads (a website specifically for people who really like cars!) in fact why are you even visiting the website.

Nobody who has any interest in cars, wants internal combustion engines banned, it will be the single most miserable event in my lifetime if it happens.

[griffdude]

JayEcho said:

@Olibol - On yer bike mate.... literally! lol

Why do you have an account on PistonHeads (a website specifically for people who really like cars!) in fact why are you even visiting the website.

Nobody who has any interest in cars, wants internal combustion engines banned, it will be the single most miserable event in my lifetime if it happens.

Top lurking- 1 post in 110 months!

[Bobo W]

So we get to use combustion engines for another 27 years before there’s some pie in the sky ambition that somehow we’ll have a carbon neutral solution in place, good luck on that front

[NGK210]

Simple solution: ban fossil fuels, not ICEs, in 2040.
And in effect force the oil companies to switch their production, and economies of scale, to carbon-neutral fuels.

Edited by NGK210 on Tuesday 14th March 13:28

[BigChiefmuffinAgain]

Sorry for sounding stupid, but do synthetic fuels actually help with reducing CO2 emissions ?

They may save a resource ( petrol ) but they still pump out CO2 - or am I totally missing something ?

[J4CKO]

JayEcho said:

@Olibol - On yer bike mate.... literally! lol

Why do you have an account on PistonHeads (a website specifically for people who really like cars!) in fact why are you even visiting the website.

Nobody who has any interest in cars, wants internal combustion engines banned, it will be the single most miserable event in my lifetime if it happens.

There are more than one opinion on these things, its a nuanced debate and we need to realise our wants and needs as car enthusiasts are pretty low down the priority list for governments, most people and humanity.

I really like cars, that wont change but I realise that cars will, whatever I do so may as well be realistic and not play the "La La La not listening" trick or cling to stuff like E-Fuels as a way to keep the party going, we need to realise we have a finite lifespan, I may drag matters out another 10, 20, 30 or even 40 years from now at 52, but its not all about me or those like me. We will be able to carry on for the rest of our driving lives running IC engined cars but shouldn't be surprised if we are the exception in the not too distant future. EV adoption will ebb and flow but I cant see it going any other way.

Most arent that bothered about what wheels are driven, how many cylinders, what it runs on or if it has pistons or an armature, they as is it safe, comfy, looks nice, does it do all I need and is cost effective to use.

Personally I cant see production of IC engines stopping entirely, do think there will be some edge case exceptions for a time anyway but the bulk will take the easy option into a rapidly improving EV, always liken it to LCD TV's taking over from CRT, there was a time when there was some common ground on performance and CRT's were cheaper, economies of scale, the tech and production methods improved and now you cant actually buy a CRT, took a few years but it happened, and there are still a few folk who prefer CRT's for gaming and probably some other stuff, and that will be like the ICE car driver by about 2045 I expect. Same with VHS, DVD, CD, Tape etc vs streaming, all dead ducks once a more convenient alternative arrives, matures and becomes affordable.

100 years hence, anything ICE will just be a museum piece, maybe even sooner. Best to just appreciate what you have, and contrive things so you can keep yours going as long as possible.

[Olibol]

griffdude said:

JayEcho said:

@Olibol - On yer bike mate.... literally! lol

Why do you have an account on PistonHeads (a website specifically for people who really like cars!) in fact why are you even visiting the website.

Nobody who has any interest in cars, wants internal combustion engines banned, it will be the single most miserable event in my lifetime if it happens.

Top lurking- 1 post in 110 months!

Blimey. You post less than me. I must really have touched a nerve. The thing is, you can love cars but not be a knuckle-dragging climate change denier.

I’ve had all sorts of interesting combustion engined cars over the years, which I’ve loved. My favourite sound is a supercharger at full chat, but I’d far rather compromise slightly for the sake of our future grandchildren and drive fun electric cars instead. I currently have a Tesla and an electric Mini, both of which are quicker and more amusing to drive at legal speeds than their petrol equivalents in my view. All that lovely torque from take off. I’m still lucky enough to be able to drive a Caterham when the mood takes me, but certainly don’t feel as happy in it as I once did.

[Pereldh]

Olibol said:

Most of these ‘carbon neutral’ synthetic fuels still involve pumping CO2 into the atmosphere and are incredibly energy intensive to create. I really hope the EU stands firm.

Just realised this is the first time I’ve ever felt slightly positive about the fact we’re nolonger in the EU. I’m very conflicted now!

Well no, neutral means neutral. The synth fuel Porsche's involved in takes CO2 from the atmosphere. So whatever comes out of the exhaust pipe has been in the atmosphere before.

[Pereldh]

BigChiefmuffinAgain said:

Sorry for sounding stupid, but do synthetic fuels actually help with reducing CO2 emissions ?

They may save a resource ( petrol ) but they still pump out CO2 - or am I totally missing something ?

Same amount IN as OUT means neutral. The point is to not ADD the CO2 from layers of old dinasours from millions of years ago.

In the same way, YOU AND I exhale CO2 with every breath. But that comes from food, drink and the air you breath.