Thursday 20th April 2023

FL5 Civic Type R reclaims FWD 'Ring record

Honda has reclaimed the production car lap record it lost to Renault four years ago. See the onboard video here...

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It’s out, the news we’ve all been waiting for. Well, those of us interested in how much quicker the current Honda Civic Type R (FL5) can lap the benchmark Nürburgring than its predecessor. And we’re expecting it to be a lot quicker, aren’t we, bearing in mind the new car is sooo much more expensive than the last one, the FK8. So how much lap time does an extra £15,000 gain you? Exactly one second…more. So it’s slower?

Yes, Honda announced last night that its £47,000 FL5 lapped the ‘Ring in 7:44.8, while the FK8 achieved a time of 7:43.8 back in 2017. However, before all the Type R naysayers grab their vuvuzelas and start hooting in disgust, the current track layout is longer than it was. Until 2019, the stopwatch began ticking at the end of the start-finish straight, and stopped at the start of it. So effectively, you set a time without travelling the length of the start-finish straight. Now, as with most circuits, the start and finish points are in the same place, which is at the end of the straight.

What this means is the FK8’s 2017 time was set over a distance of 20.6km, while the FL5 covered 20.8km. Honda says that the new car is faster, and the big win for the Japanese giant is it’s reclaimed the Nordschleife lap record for a front-wheel-drive production car. Of course, that's been nabbed from the Renault Mégane R.S. Trophy-R, which in 2019 officially lapped in the same 20.8km-distance in 7:45.3. As a reference for how much the altered timing system adds, the R.S. Trophy would’ve done a 7:40.1 under the older rules.

If we assume that the FL5 would also be capable of knocking around five seconds of its time over the shorter distance, then a comparable lap to the FK8 would’ve been a 7:39. The other factor to consider is the FL5 used was a European-spec Type R S, which is lighter than our RHD cars, and it was on Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 Connect tyres. These aren't standard fit and are available only through Michelin directly, so there's a bit of smoke and mirrors here, as always.

I hope all that makes sense? If not, just watch and enjoy the video instead.  

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• Honda Civic Type R (FL5) vs Golf R
• Honda civic Type R (FK8) used buying guide

[Baldchap]

Impressive indeed, but I do wonder if this one is the one you can buy or modified like the last one...

[mrclav]

Hmmm.

So non-standard tyres on the Honda vs what kind of tyres on the Renault?

[Baldchap]

mrclav said:

Hmmm.

So non-standard tyres on the Honda vs what kind of tyres on the Renault?

The Renault was on a set of wheels only two people were allowed to buy!

[thegreenhell]

Car looked rather bouncy, as if the dampers couldn't cope with such grippy tyres.

Full commitment from the driver, though. He almost came unstuck at Klostertal, and then again moments later going into Karussell.

[JakeT]

I drove an FL5 in January, and it was a riot. But on the standard Michelin PS4S the grip in the cold and wet was a joke. Wheelspin in third is very amusing that said.

I’m no helmsman, but loved how it drove. If I could disable the auto rev matching it would be a home run for me. Shame I’m poor and can’t afford one.

[Terminator X]

Baldchap said:

mrclav said:

Hmmm.

So non-standard tyres on the Honda vs what kind of tyres on the Renault?

The Renault was on a set of wheels only two people were allowed to buy!

No that was the carbon brakes

Afaik there was about 30 sets of the carbon wheels available.

TX.

[EK9_CTR]

Congrats to Honda. To beat the stripped out £72k Trophy R is an achievement.

FL5 is one of the GOAT hot hatches for me.

[v8griff]

Baldchap said:

Impressive indeed, but I do wonder if this one is the one you can buy or modified like the last one...

It's a valid point. Beats me how Honda could claim that particular victory given the last car was modified to reduce weight.

[jonosterman]

It's definitely an impressive car and lap-time, but I'd love to see a comparison of old and new cars on the same track (not necessarily the ring), all running the same tyre.

My gut feeling is that a huge amount of the 'improvement' in track times over the last couple of decades is just down to manufacturers fitting more and more aggressive tyres.

I don't see this as a big issue for super and hyper cars (given their typical usage) but for things like hot hatches, that are explicitly 'do everything all year-round' cars, it seems increasingly disingenuous to be bragging about improvements in lap-time, when that's come at the significant cost of performance in the wet and the cold, particularly given the weather in this country.

[RacerMike]

Baldchap said:

Impressive indeed, but I do wonder if this one is the one you can buy or modified like the last one...

Comparing to the L'Argus video already posted a few months ago, the car does actually seem to match top speeds so for once I suspect it isn't running more boost! Cup2 Track Connects however are worth a good 1/4s per km than a PS4 S.

[CedricN]

Baldchap said:

Impressive indeed, but I do wonder if this one is the one you can buy or modified like the last one...

Seems like semi dirty tricks were used here to eak out some more lap time. Who knows what the S Grade will consist of, maybe way more agreesive alignment etc. If you are in the UK you wont be able to buy it


From Hondas webiste:

• Editors note - The lap time was set using a Type R that is a lighter version of the latest model. This model will be available to order in European LHD markets only, and will be referred to as a Type R S grade.

The lap time was set using Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 Connect tyres that will be available to order through Michelin directly

[georgeyboy12345]

Don’t think Renault will be claiming it back any time soon given they will be stopping production of RS Meganes in favour of those dull, porky e-techs

[Gecko1978]

So they broke the lap time with a car you can't buy in the UK an tyres tou can't buy from Honda......but it's still flipping quick and quicker than the last and likely greener.

Plus i doubt anyone wanting to do under 8 mins at the ring buys a Honda civic

So all in all a great fast hot hatch

[0ddball]

Stupendous news. Imagine all the things you could do with that extra 1s if you traded your old slow version in.

[JJJ.]

Whatever about the time, exact model and tyre selection, a second faster or slower who really cares. It's highly unlikely to sway potential buyers one way or another.

Regardless, it's good publicity for Honda.
Looking good in white.

[Xenoous]

Impressive no doubt. Realistically there's probably nothing in it regarding performance between the 2. Such a shame Renault have canned the Sport department. Churned out some great cars. Hope Honda continue to do so for many years to come.

[JohnoVR6]

CedricN said:

Seems like semi dirty tricks were used here to eak out some more lap time. Who knows what the S Grade will consist of, maybe way more agreesive alignment etc. If you are in the UK you wont be able to buy it


From Hondas webiste:

• Editors note - The lap time was set using a Type R that is a lighter version of the latest model. This model will be available to order in European LHD markets only, and will be referred to as a Type R S grade.

The lap time was set using Michelin Pilot Sport Cup 2 Connect tyres that will be available to order through Michelin directly

Type R S grade does not have A/C, GPS module (infotainment screen remains), no tonneau cover; no auto dimming interior mirror; no cargo net hooks in the boot; and no parking sensors or sunvisor vanity illumination. The exterior mirrors also do not have electric adjustment or heating functions. The rest is the same spec as the regular Type R.

And the Cup 2 tyres are available through dealers in Asia and the US - just not Europe.

[dinkel]

Wow.

But :cough: how many mere mortals can achieve such performance at the 'Ring...?

In 2009 I sat next to Yu (ex-EVO) doing an 8:35 in a Z06. And we were chatting all lap long so he went for the really quick lap without me.

I loved it but had to sit in the shade for 30 mins. With a cuppa tea. And after throwing up twice.

All I can say: you'll need serious skills to go this quick...

[CedricN]

JohnoVR6 said:

Type R S grade does not have A/C, GPS module (infotainment screen remains), no tonneau cover; no auto dimming interior mirror; no cargo net hooks in the boot; and no parking sensors or sunvisor vanity illumination. The exterior mirrors also do not have electric adjustment or heating functions. The rest is the same spec as the regular Type R.

And the Cup 2 tyres are available through dealers in Asia and the US - just not Europe.

Oh wow, a bit disappointed they had to do a non ac "cheater" model. I really wished they done it with the car people buy. Does it have any different damper calibration? It looks absolutely horrid in the video.

[JohnoVR6]

CedricN said:

Oh wow, a bit disappointed they had to do a non ac "cheater" model. I really wished they done it with the car people buy. Does it have any different damper calibration? It looks absolutely horrid in the video.

Weight difference is about 20kg in total, so not massive savings but I see your point.

No differences to alignment or damper calibration as far as I'm aware - its just an exceptionally stiff car in general, even more so in +R mode. Non S grade in the hands of a journalist around the 'ring has similar movement:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVvilunxq_8