Do any *normal* cars have any feel anymore?
Discussion
So, due to a mixture of personal circumstances and a job change my love of cars has been on the back burner for a year (and will be for at least another 2).
No more multiple car garages and no more large engined dailies (boo).
In light of this, a year ago I tried to find a car that I could use for 12k a year split personal / business that has running costs inline with my restricted budget and could function as a 'car' on daily use.
I really thought I'd cracked it by buying a 2016 Seat Leon FR 184 diesel for £7500.
Manual for the interaction, 184bhp for the performance an easy and genuine 50mpg for the balance of private and business miles (with cheap tax and cheap insurance to boot).
But 12mths in I've realised, it's just not fun. It's fast(ish) and capable and cheap to run, and on paper it's brilliant...but it's not at all fun...it has too much grip, too much torque and is effortlessly competent.
I can't have a fun car, I can't have a two seater, I need to have a boot and back seats and all the dullness of a daily and I need it to be cheap to run and buy...but it still needs to be comfortable for regular motorway work.
So it made me think, are there any regular cars (say made in the last ten years) that actually have some feel to them...or has egas, epas, esc (and other e's) taken the *fun* out of regular cars?
TLDR - are all affordable, usable cars dull nowadays and car enthusiasm is only for the wealthy or those without the need to do regular car things with their car?
No more multiple car garages and no more large engined dailies (boo).
In light of this, a year ago I tried to find a car that I could use for 12k a year split personal / business that has running costs inline with my restricted budget and could function as a 'car' on daily use.
I really thought I'd cracked it by buying a 2016 Seat Leon FR 184 diesel for £7500.
Manual for the interaction, 184bhp for the performance an easy and genuine 50mpg for the balance of private and business miles (with cheap tax and cheap insurance to boot).
But 12mths in I've realised, it's just not fun. It's fast(ish) and capable and cheap to run, and on paper it's brilliant...but it's not at all fun...it has too much grip, too much torque and is effortlessly competent.
I can't have a fun car, I can't have a two seater, I need to have a boot and back seats and all the dullness of a daily and I need it to be cheap to run and buy...but it still needs to be comfortable for regular motorway work.
So it made me think, are there any regular cars (say made in the last ten years) that actually have some feel to them...or has egas, epas, esc (and other e's) taken the *fun* out of regular cars?
TLDR - are all affordable, usable cars dull nowadays and car enthusiasm is only for the wealthy or those without the need to do regular car things with their car?
I run a RenaultSport Megane RS250 with the cup chassis for exactly this.
Ride is a little stiff, but it has a large boot, though the opening is a bit small you can still get a couple of mountain bikes in it. It’s quiet and comfortable with nice Recaro seats. Goes well and is interesting to drive. Does about 35mpg.
Ride is a little stiff, but it has a large boot, though the opening is a bit small you can still get a couple of mountain bikes in it. It’s quiet and comfortable with nice Recaro seats. Goes well and is interesting to drive. Does about 35mpg.
I feel your pain Sir. And after lots of research, driving plenty of cars etc., I think the answer is "no".
Stuff that should be brilliant just seem a bit dull if you are used to 70s, 80s and even 90s stuff.
As for new car darlings, I have driven quite a lot including the new GR86 - it's alright but not a patch on a sorted old BMW. Fiesta ST is OK but nothing particularly joyous. Cayman GT4? Not something I would get out of bed early to drive on a Sunday.
I came to the conclusion something like a 2005ish 3 Series with a full Birds upgrade is probably as close as you can get to as good a balance of something that is fun, practical, useable, cheapish and oversteerable.
I don't think spending loads on a new car gets you anything with more feel either unless it's a restomod.
Multiple cars is the only solution unfortunately.
Stuff that should be brilliant just seem a bit dull if you are used to 70s, 80s and even 90s stuff.
As for new car darlings, I have driven quite a lot including the new GR86 - it's alright but not a patch on a sorted old BMW. Fiesta ST is OK but nothing particularly joyous. Cayman GT4? Not something I would get out of bed early to drive on a Sunday.
I came to the conclusion something like a 2005ish 3 Series with a full Birds upgrade is probably as close as you can get to as good a balance of something that is fun, practical, useable, cheapish and oversteerable.
I don't think spending loads on a new car gets you anything with more feel either unless it's a restomod.
Multiple cars is the only solution unfortunately.
j44esd said:
TLDR - are all affordable, usable cars dull nowadays and car enthusiasm is only for the wealthy or those without the need to do regular car things with their car?
Yes, or very close to it for the "normal" stuff - for two reasons imho. First, because a lot of manufacturers use a very similar set of components (Bosch braking/ABS/ESP etc, Sachs dampers, ZF boxes, shared brand platforms) which means a lot of cars are very familiar.
Second because the endless advance of clever engineering has reduced NVH massively, which reduces "character" and "feel" to a keen driver. All those softly-mounted controls, carefully crafted engine mountings etc all smooth the whole experience out, even from a rubbish 4-pot diesel. The body shells are so stiff, yet don't resonate and carefully insulate the driver away from the environment and business of driving. I also think this leads to more selfish driving.
For a modern car I would go the opposite way - maximum comfort, and hang everything else. ZF 8 speed, good seats, cracking stereo, longest wheelbase and smallest wheels you can get.
ITP said:
911Spanker said:
I feel your pain Sir. And after lots of research, driving plenty of cars etc., I think the answer is "no".
Stuff that should be brilliant just seem a bit dull if you are used to 70s, 80s and even 90s stuff.
As for new car darlings, I have driven quite a lot including the new GR86 - it's alright but not a patch on a sorted old BMW. Fiesta ST is OK but nothing particularly joyous. Cayman GT4? Not something I would get out of bed early to drive on a Sunday.
I came to the conclusion something like a 2005ish 3 Series with a full Birds upgrade is probably as close as you can get to as good a balance of something that is fun, practical, useable, cheapish and oversteerable.
I don't think spending loads on a new car gets you anything with more feel either unless it's a restomod.
Multiple cars is the only solution unfortunately.
I tend to agree. Peak car for feel and modern useability was, I think, between roughly 1990 and 2010. Everything increasingly then gets too heavy, over assisted, emissions rules dulling throttle response, turbos doing similar etc. A mk1 focus is a good example compared to a new one for example. A Peugeot 405 had a ride/handling balance and feel no modern saloon can match. Stuff that should be brilliant just seem a bit dull if you are used to 70s, 80s and even 90s stuff.
As for new car darlings, I have driven quite a lot including the new GR86 - it's alright but not a patch on a sorted old BMW. Fiesta ST is OK but nothing particularly joyous. Cayman GT4? Not something I would get out of bed early to drive on a Sunday.
I came to the conclusion something like a 2005ish 3 Series with a full Birds upgrade is probably as close as you can get to as good a balance of something that is fun, practical, useable, cheapish and oversteerable.
I don't think spending loads on a new car gets you anything with more feel either unless it's a restomod.
Multiple cars is the only solution unfortunately.
I’m very ‘meh’ about all modern BMW’s, can’t think of 1 I’d buy now since they ruined the M2. Never really though bmw steering was that feelsome though, even on the older ones, I’ve owned 80’s, 90’s and 00’ models.
For new cars, I reckon the GR86 has an older car feel more that anything else on sale, and I’ve not driven one (yet), but I believe Evora’s, not new but quite recent, have a good feel.
This is no good for the OP though, with space and cost requirements!
ITP said:
911Spanker said:
I feel your pain Sir. And after lots of research, driving plenty of cars etc., I think the answer is "no".
Stuff that should be brilliant just seem a bit dull if you are used to 70s, 80s and even 90s stuff.
As for new car darlings, I have driven quite a lot including the new GR86 - it's alright but not a patch on a sorted old BMW. Fiesta ST is OK but nothing particularly joyous. Cayman GT4? Not something I would get out of bed early to drive on a Sunday.
I came to the conclusion something like a 2005ish 3 Series with a full Birds upgrade is probably as close as you can get to as good a balance of something that is fun, practical, useable, cheapish and oversteerable.
I don't think spending loads on a new car gets you anything with more feel either unless it's a restomod.
Multiple cars is the only solution unfortunately.
I tend to agree. Peak car for feel and modern useability was, I think, between roughly 1990 and 2010. Everything increasingly then gets too heavy, over assisted, emissions rules dulling throttle response, turbos doing similar etc. A mk1 focus is a good example compared to a new one for example. A Peugeot 405 had a ride/handling balance and feel no modern saloon can match. Stuff that should be brilliant just seem a bit dull if you are used to 70s, 80s and even 90s stuff.
As for new car darlings, I have driven quite a lot including the new GR86 - it's alright but not a patch on a sorted old BMW. Fiesta ST is OK but nothing particularly joyous. Cayman GT4? Not something I would get out of bed early to drive on a Sunday.
I came to the conclusion something like a 2005ish 3 Series with a full Birds upgrade is probably as close as you can get to as good a balance of something that is fun, practical, useable, cheapish and oversteerable.
I don't think spending loads on a new car gets you anything with more feel either unless it's a restomod.
Multiple cars is the only solution unfortunately.
I’m very ‘meh’ about all modern BMW’s, can’t think of 1 I’d buy now since they ruined the M2. Never really though bmw steering was that feelsome though, even on the older ones, I’ve owned 80’s, 90’s and 00’ models.
For new cars, I reckon the GR86 has an older car feel more that anything else on sale, and I’ve not driven one (yet), but I believe Evora’s, not new but quite recent, have a good feel.
Likewise, I didn't think much of the M2 when I drove it unfortunately.
You are definitely talking when it comes to 405. I often scour the net for a nice 405 but it seems a bit futile these days unfortunately. A lovely 405 GTXi 1.9 would be a fantastic thing to use on road. Now that's a proper driving practical car..
911Spanker said:
ITP said:
911Spanker said:
I feel your pain Sir. And after lots of research, driving plenty of cars etc., I think the answer is "no".
Stuff that should be brilliant just seem a bit dull if you are used to 70s, 80s and even 90s stuff.
As for new car darlings, I have driven quite a lot including the new GR86 - it's alright but not a patch on a sorted old BMW. Fiesta ST is OK but nothing particularly joyous. Cayman GT4? Not something I would get out of bed early to drive on a Sunday.
I came to the conclusion something like a 2005ish 3 Series with a full Birds upgrade is probably as close as you can get to as good a balance of something that is fun, practical, useable, cheapish and oversteerable.
I don't think spending loads on a new car gets you anything with more feel either unless it's a restomod.
Multiple cars is the only solution unfortunately.
I tend to agree. Peak car for feel and modern useability was, I think, between roughly 1990 and 2010. Everything increasingly then gets too heavy, over assisted, emissions rules dulling throttle response, turbos doing similar etc. A mk1 focus is a good example compared to a new one for example. A Peugeot 405 had a ride/handling balance and feel no modern saloon can match. Stuff that should be brilliant just seem a bit dull if you are used to 70s, 80s and even 90s stuff.
As for new car darlings, I have driven quite a lot including the new GR86 - it's alright but not a patch on a sorted old BMW. Fiesta ST is OK but nothing particularly joyous. Cayman GT4? Not something I would get out of bed early to drive on a Sunday.
I came to the conclusion something like a 2005ish 3 Series with a full Birds upgrade is probably as close as you can get to as good a balance of something that is fun, practical, useable, cheapish and oversteerable.
I don't think spending loads on a new car gets you anything with more feel either unless it's a restomod.
Multiple cars is the only solution unfortunately.
I’m very ‘meh’ about all modern BMW’s, can’t think of 1 I’d buy now since they ruined the M2. Never really though bmw steering was that feelsome though, even on the older ones, I’ve owned 80’s, 90’s and 00’ models.
For new cars, I reckon the GR86 has an older car feel more that anything else on sale, and I’ve not driven one (yet), but I believe Evora’s, not new but quite recent, have a good feel.
Likewise, I didn't think much of the M2 when I drove it unfortunately.
You are definitely talking when it comes to 405. I often scour the net for a nice 405 but it seems a bit futile these days unfortunately. A lovely 405 GTXi 1.9 would be a fantastic thing to use on road. Now that's a proper driving practical car..
We have a GR86, and the steering feel is not as good as older Peugeots/fords etc, but it’s still better than most new cars available now, plus it light for a modern car, rwd, and does feel like a new ‘old’ car if that makes sense, in a good way.
ITP said:
911Spanker said:
ITP said:
911Spanker said:
I feel your pain Sir. And after lots of research, driving plenty of cars etc., I think the answer is "no".
Stuff that should be brilliant just seem a bit dull if you are used to 70s, 80s and even 90s stuff.
As for new car darlings, I have driven quite a lot including the new GR86 - it's alright but not a patch on a sorted old BMW. Fiesta ST is OK but nothing particularly joyous. Cayman GT4? Not something I would get out of bed early to drive on a Sunday.
I came to the conclusion something like a 2005ish 3 Series with a full Birds upgrade is probably as close as you can get to as good a balance of something that is fun, practical, useable, cheapish and oversteerable.
I don't think spending loads on a new car gets you anything with more feel either unless it's a restomod.
Multiple cars is the only solution unfortunately.
I tend to agree. Peak car for feel and modern useability was, I think, between roughly 1990 and 2010. Everything increasingly then gets too heavy, over assisted, emissions rules dulling throttle response, turbos doing similar etc. A mk1 focus is a good example compared to a new one for example. A Peugeot 405 had a ride/handling balance and feel no modern saloon can match. Stuff that should be brilliant just seem a bit dull if you are used to 70s, 80s and even 90s stuff.
As for new car darlings, I have driven quite a lot including the new GR86 - it's alright but not a patch on a sorted old BMW. Fiesta ST is OK but nothing particularly joyous. Cayman GT4? Not something I would get out of bed early to drive on a Sunday.
I came to the conclusion something like a 2005ish 3 Series with a full Birds upgrade is probably as close as you can get to as good a balance of something that is fun, practical, useable, cheapish and oversteerable.
I don't think spending loads on a new car gets you anything with more feel either unless it's a restomod.
Multiple cars is the only solution unfortunately.
I’m very ‘meh’ about all modern BMW’s, can’t think of 1 I’d buy now since they ruined the M2. Never really though bmw steering was that feelsome though, even on the older ones, I’ve owned 80’s, 90’s and 00’ models.
For new cars, I reckon the GR86 has an older car feel more that anything else on sale, and I’ve not driven one (yet), but I believe Evora’s, not new but quite recent, have a good feel.
Likewise, I didn't think much of the M2 when I drove it unfortunately.
You are definitely talking when it comes to 405. I often scour the net for a nice 405 but it seems a bit futile these days unfortunately. A lovely 405 GTXi 1.9 would be a fantastic thing to use on road. Now that's a proper driving practical car..
We have a GR86, and the steering feel is not as good as older Peugeots/fords etc, but it’s still better than most new cars available now, plus it light for a modern car, rwd, and does feel like a new ‘old’ car if that makes sense, in a good way.
Just don't compare even it to a sorted/refreshed car from 20-30 years ago...
911Spanker said:
The M2 was pretty poor IMO. However I think the GR is the best driving new car out there for sensible money by some distance.
Just don't compare even it to a sorted/refreshed car from 20-30 years ago...
Older cars (good ones) are more of a smile inducing drive to be sure, but only for car geeks of course, 98% of the A to B population would hate them compared to tech laden modern stuff!Just don't compare even it to a sorted/refreshed car from 20-30 years ago...
v9 said:
I run a RenaultSport Megane RS250 with the cup chassis for exactly this.
Ride is a little stiff, but it has a large boot, though the opening is a bit small you can still get a couple of mountain bikes in it. It’s quiet and comfortable with nice Recaro seats. Goes well and is interesting to drive. Does about 35mpg.
Me too, unfortunately I'm not sure it ticks the reliable box. Definitely not a cheap car to maintain with it going through suspension bits for fun, 5/6 year cambelt intervals and gearbox issues. But, it's definitely a fun car..Ride is a little stiff, but it has a large boot, though the opening is a bit small you can still get a couple of mountain bikes in it. It’s quiet and comfortable with nice Recaro seats. Goes well and is interesting to drive. Does about 35mpg.
Mines booked in for cambelt and rocker cover oil weap fix next month, bringing my total maintenance and repairs expenditure for the car up to £5,000 in less than 3 years.
if your main concerns are that your car has too much grip and too much torque, then either buy a less powerful diesel or a smaller naturally aspirated petrol, and kit it out with the smallest wheels you can find, with the narrowest tyres.
what tyres are on your car at the moment? if they're any wider than 235s then drop down to 215s or 205s, if you can find wheels narrow enough to comfortably fit them.
older cars have more 'feel' because really, they're worse cars...
best car i had for 'feel' was an old e36 328i, with no traction control, running 205/60/R15 tyres. that thing danced its way through a corner, lovely and flowing. we subsequently went up to 17s, and then 18s with wide, sticky rubber on, and each upgrade made the car faster round a lap, but less fun to drive.
TL:DR - change the wheels and tyres.
what tyres are on your car at the moment? if they're any wider than 235s then drop down to 215s or 205s, if you can find wheels narrow enough to comfortably fit them.
older cars have more 'feel' because really, they're worse cars...
best car i had for 'feel' was an old e36 328i, with no traction control, running 205/60/R15 tyres. that thing danced its way through a corner, lovely and flowing. we subsequently went up to 17s, and then 18s with wide, sticky rubber on, and each upgrade made the car faster round a lap, but less fun to drive.
TL:DR - change the wheels and tyres.
brillomaster said:
if your main concerns are that your car has too much grip and too much torque, then either buy a less powerful diesel or a smaller naturally aspirated petrol, and kit it out with the smallest wheels you can find, with the narrowest tyres.
what tyres are on your car at the moment? if they're any wider than 235s then drop down to 215s or 205s, if you can find wheels narrow enough to comfortably fit them.
older cars have more 'feel' because really, they're worse cars...
best car i had for 'feel' was an old e36 328i, with no traction control, running 205/60/R15 tyres. that thing danced its way through a corner, lovely and flowing. we subsequently went up to 17s, and then 18s with wide, sticky rubber on, and each upgrade made the car faster round a lap, but less fun to drive.
TL:DR - change the wheels and tyres.
Funnily enough, I deliberately chose the smallest wheel option (225 45 17) when I was looking with exactly this mentality (many were optioned on 18s).what tyres are on your car at the moment? if they're any wider than 235s then drop down to 215s or 205s, if you can find wheels narrow enough to comfortably fit them.
older cars have more 'feel' because really, they're worse cars...
best car i had for 'feel' was an old e36 328i, with no traction control, running 205/60/R15 tyres. that thing danced its way through a corner, lovely and flowing. we subsequently went up to 17s, and then 18s with wide, sticky rubber on, and each upgrade made the car faster round a lap, but less fun to drive.
TL:DR - change the wheels and tyres.
j44esd said:
911Spanker said:
I think the answer is "no".
This is rapidly the conclusion I'm reaching...I guess I'm wondering if a lesser powered Focus on smaller wheels will be more fun, or just an inherently worse version due to performance/spec than I have now...I genuinely think a 2005/6 320d could be a great sweet spot. A decent amount of torque, proper steering, lighter engine than the bigger models, little wheels and tyres (think it is 205 section on 16") etc.
£3-4k should get you a belter. Spend another couple of grand at Birds and I think you will have as good a "do-it-all" fun car for reasonable cash.
Or look at the recent thread on the E87 130i. Same thing applies..
911Spanker said:
Personally I would only go for a Focus MK1 1.6 which may not be what you are after. Also it's FWD which I can't be doing with if it is a sole car.
I genuinely think a 2005/6 320d could be a great sweet spot. A decent amount of torque, proper steering, lighter engine than the bigger models, little wheels and tyres (think it is 205 section on 16") etc.
£3-4k should get you a belter. Spend another couple of grand at Birds and I think you will have as good a "do-it-all" fun car for reasonable cash.
Or look at the recent thread on the E87 130i. Same thing applies..
Good advice, thanks. I've had multiple BMWs in the past (prior car to the Leon was a 430i GC) and had looked at the F platform more than the E platform purely due to trying to find a decent condition early one.I genuinely think a 2005/6 320d could be a great sweet spot. A decent amount of torque, proper steering, lighter engine than the bigger models, little wheels and tyres (think it is 205 section on 16") etc.
£3-4k should get you a belter. Spend another couple of grand at Birds and I think you will have as good a "do-it-all" fun car for reasonable cash.
Or look at the recent thread on the E87 130i. Same thing applies..
One of the reasons for going to the Leon not another 3 series was due to having to go from an Individual spec 4 series to a low spec 3 seemed a bit frustrating.
I probably should have just bought a 320ed or similar.
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