Automatic gearboxes
Discussion
Folks,
I have been wondering, for quite a long time, about the following disparity in approach. Please could anyone explain why Audi and BMW have opposite directions of travel when changing gear 'manually' in their automatic 'boxes.
For Audi it is 'push forward' to change up a gear.
With BMW it is 'pull backwards' to change up a gear.
To me it seems more intuitive to follow the BMW approach.
Any thoughts would be most welcome.
Chris.
I have been wondering, for quite a long time, about the following disparity in approach. Please could anyone explain why Audi and BMW have opposite directions of travel when changing gear 'manually' in their automatic 'boxes.
For Audi it is 'push forward' to change up a gear.
With BMW it is 'pull backwards' to change up a gear.
To me it seems more intuitive to follow the BMW approach.
Any thoughts would be most welcome.
Chris.
theres no standardised way, its just whatever the manufacturer chooses.
same with flappy paddles to change gear - BMW paddles used to be, pull either paddle to change up, push either paddle to change down. a lot of people rewire them so they are pull right paddle to change up, pull left paddle to change down. and may or may not keep the push functionaiity to do anything. and later bmws have switched to pull left for down, pull right for up.
same with paddles being mounted to the wheel, or staying mounted to the column - there isnt a norm.
same with flappy paddles to change gear - BMW paddles used to be, pull either paddle to change up, push either paddle to change down. a lot of people rewire them so they are pull right paddle to change up, pull left paddle to change down. and may or may not keep the push functionaiity to do anything. and later bmws have switched to pull left for down, pull right for up.
same with paddles being mounted to the wheel, or staying mounted to the column - there isnt a norm.
Chris5150 said:
Thank you both for the replies.
I was less vexed by the technical aspect and more interested in why two dominant manufacturers decide to have opposite methods of changing gears.
Anyone else wish to throw some light on the topic, please?
Not sure why VW and others get it the wrong way round, but just pleased that BMW and Porsche get it right.I was less vexed by the technical aspect and more interested in why two dominant manufacturers decide to have opposite methods of changing gears.
Anyone else wish to throw some light on the topic, please?
If you think those are bad you should have been driving trucks back in the bad old days of constant mesh boxes.
The combinations of splitters and range changes, equal and unequal, was many fold as were the gearshifts themselves, you coud find 1st beside you pulled back or to the left and back, and the H or double H pattern could be in any and all directions, you might have one or two gearsticks, the range and splitter switches might be on the gearlever, might be another gearlever or might be a combination of all of the above with another air shifter liever atop what was amusing called the dashboard, which was actually a lump of cast alloy or steel on Fodens 60's designs...power steering pah who needs that...said the truck maker and vehicle owner.
If you drove a 70's MAN it might well be a 13 speed column change.
What would definately be missing in all cases was the oringinal maker's label offering some clue as to what gearbox was fitted and which way round it worked, suck it and see, driver's manual you say? hoho, if it ever came with one it vanished into the office on day one and was thrown out years ago withthe ashes after one of the regular fires that occured when the hours records needed, erm, revising.
Anyway, back to cars, why can't they standardise because all of this is ridiculous, Toyota helped no end by hiding the EPB switch in the middle of the dash on 2009 Avensis and wired it to work opposite to every other park brake you've ever used, ie push to apply pull to release, wonderful.
The combinations of splitters and range changes, equal and unequal, was many fold as were the gearshifts themselves, you coud find 1st beside you pulled back or to the left and back, and the H or double H pattern could be in any and all directions, you might have one or two gearsticks, the range and splitter switches might be on the gearlever, might be another gearlever or might be a combination of all of the above with another air shifter liever atop what was amusing called the dashboard, which was actually a lump of cast alloy or steel on Fodens 60's designs...power steering pah who needs that...said the truck maker and vehicle owner.
If you drove a 70's MAN it might well be a 13 speed column change.
What would definately be missing in all cases was the oringinal maker's label offering some clue as to what gearbox was fitted and which way round it worked, suck it and see, driver's manual you say? hoho, if it ever came with one it vanished into the office on day one and was thrown out years ago withthe ashes after one of the regular fires that occured when the hours records needed, erm, revising.
Anyway, back to cars, why can't they standardise because all of this is ridiculous, Toyota helped no end by hiding the EPB switch in the middle of the dash on 2009 Avensis and wired it to work opposite to every other park brake you've ever used, ie push to apply pull to release, wonderful.
Jordie Barretts sock said:
Why did indicator stalks used to be on the right of the steering wheel instead of the left?
I thought that car manufacturers from RHD countries (mainly UK and Japan) used to put indicator stalks on the right as the left hand was often off the wheel for gear changes. Conversely car manufacturers from LHD countries did the opposite. As time has progressed the inidicator stalk seems to have become more standard on the left.
There is nothing that requires a manufacturer to do this a particular way so they do what they think works best.
It is same with windscreen wipers, some have both wipers move in the same direction, some have them moving in different directions but both design choices achieve a similar result.
Life would be very boring if everyone did the same thing the same way.
It is same with windscreen wipers, some have both wipers move in the same direction, some have them moving in different directions but both design choices achieve a similar result.
Life would be very boring if everyone did the same thing the same way.
Jordie Barretts sock said:
It's just one of those things, like why did BL put LHD wipers on their Marinas and Allegros for example?
Why did indicator stalks used to be on the right of the steering wheel instead of the left?
In the 1980s UK-sold RHD BMW 5 Series had LHD wipers.Why did indicator stalks used to be on the right of the steering wheel instead of the left?
Some Japanese cars still have indicator stalks on the right.
Why did motorcycle gear changes swap from right to left?
richs2891 said:
I think the Audi / VAG makes more sense,
push up to change up and pull down to down shift, especually when look at a pc keyboard up and down arrows.
I can't agree, as a keyboard is static, but when driving a car you'll experience motion. As you accelerate you'll lean back and as you decelerate, you'll lean forward. Hence why up shifts are towards your and downshifts are away. push up to change up and pull down to down shift, especually when look at a pc keyboard up and down arrows.
It's why racing applications are pull back for up and push away for down, it's what is intuitive.
motco said:
In the 1980s UK-sold RHD BMW 5 Series had LHD wipers.
Some Japanese cars still have indicator stalks on the right.
Why did motorcycle gear changes swap from right to left?
The motorcycle thing is to match the actions and feel acquired in manual cars, clutch is left foot (single action) brake is right foot (control and sensitivity required), plus matching the front brake lever on the right hand side. (Although the gear foot lever on a bike can be up for up changes, or down for up changes)Some Japanese cars still have indicator stalks on the right.
Why did motorcycle gear changes swap from right to left?
MikeM6 said:
richs2891 said:
I think the Audi / VAG makes more sense,
push up to change up and pull down to down shift, especually when look at a pc keyboard up and down arrows.
I can't agree, as a keyboard is static, but when driving a car you'll experience motion. As you accelerate you'll lean back and as you decelerate, you'll lean forward. Hence why up shifts are towards your and downshifts are away. push up to change up and pull down to down shift, especually when look at a pc keyboard up and down arrows.
It's why racing applications are pull back for up and push away for down, it's what is intuitive.
The direction is arbitrary. The most longitudinal acceleration you'll see in any production car is a little over 1g, and if you can't cope with changing gear against 1g then you'll be ragdolling your way down the grid and slapping yourself in the face.
Chris5150 said:
It seems to be more intuitive to me to pull back when accelerating, such as from 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th etc, rather than to push forwards.
There must be a reason why this fundamental interaction with the controls is perceived intwothree completely different ways.
FTFYThere must be a reason why this fundamental interaction with the controls is perceived in
The reverse-shift, to me and clearly many car manufacturers, is less intuitive as you are pushing something forward (which, when constrained to a horizontal plane, is the traditional direction of "up") to change down.
People will have a preference. I suspect that preference is set by the first car with such a shifter that you do a lot of driving in. First time I drove a Mercedes I put it into N at 70mph because I hadn't considered the possibility of a left/down-right/up shift (so that's THREE different ways!)
donkmeister said:
As mentioned in another thread... Which way round is your accelerator pedal? Pull back to accelerate and push forwards to coast?
The direction is arbitrary. The most longitudinal acceleration you'll see in any production car is a little over 1g, and if you can't cope with changing gear against 1g then you'll be ragdolling your way down the grid and slapping yourself in the face.
It's not about what you can and can't cope with, it's about what feels right and wrong. We can all get used to something counter intuitive if we must. The direction is arbitrary. The most longitudinal acceleration you'll see in any production car is a little over 1g, and if you can't cope with changing gear against 1g then you'll be ragdolling your way down the grid and slapping yourself in the face.
Most drivers who are interested in driving will agree that pull back for up and push away for down is correct, however there will of course be some they differ based on their own experience. The consensus will remain however.
The accelerator analogy wasn't helpful in the other thread and it isn't here. You don't pull back on an accelerator at all (unless it's broken), you simply press and it returns as it's spring loaded.
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