[US] Carmakers sharing driving data with insurers

[samoht]

We're all familiar with 'black box insurance', where your insurance company offers a cheaper rate in exchange for telematics monitoring how you drive (time of day, speeds and accelerations) and the right to hike your premium or cancel your insurance if they don't like the results. However, these are always a conscious decision by the driver to have the telematics installed into their car.

However, according to the New York Yimes, modern cars have sufficient sensors, compute and connectivity to report the same information without a separate black box being added. This can make the telematics insurance option cheaper and more convenient. However in the US it appears that some manufacturers are now 'taking the initiative' and if the driver activates a non-specific 'driver coaching' feature, the company will sell the data to brokers who'll make it available next time you renew your insurance.

NYT said:

In recent years, automakers, including G.M., Honda, Kia and Hyundai, have started offering optional features in their connected-car apps that rate people’s driving. Some drivers may not realize that, if they turn on these features, the car companies then give information about how they drive to data brokers like LexisNexis.

There seem to be plenty of drivers who have either opted in without the implications being explained, or potentially the selling dealer may have activated the feature (and earned commission) before the car hits the road and without the new owner knowing. They then wonder why their insurance renewal has become so expensive.

Are there any such 'driver coaching' features on cars in the UK market? I'm assuming that nothing like this is happening here, right?

[gtb4]

Data privacy in the US is pretty lax. It’s much better in Europe. Modern cars are, and most likely will continue to be, a nightmare for this. Car manufactures will ride roughshod over customer privacy data. Have a listen to this podcast if you want to see where this already is, let alone where it is going (ignore the click bait title).

https://www.malwarebytes.com/blog/podcast/2023/09/...

[essayer]

I found this case really amazing and it got me wondering if this happens in the UK market
I assume every new car has telematics built in, and an app to use? Certainly EVs.

Full case doc here
https://static01.nyt.com/newsgraphics/documenttool...

[Rich Boy Spanner]

Nissan has a pop up on the display every time you switch it on asking for consent, or at least my Leaf does. I only agree in winter because without agreeing you lose the connection to the phone app and I can't switch on the heating before I go out in the morning.

[Fastpedeller]

How will this 'data' be used , and will it be accurate? There have been cases of black box records stating the driver has been breaking speed limits and it turns out they were on the A-road which was parallel and close to a 30mph limit road. When we had a black box (Daughter was a new driver) I got a low score one day due to 'poor steering' (much to her amusement) - It happened when I drove to the top floor of a multi-storey carpark, so lots of 'spiralling'

[williamp]

Literally there is nothing to worry about

https://foundation.mozilla.org/en/privacynotinclud...

I mean, if you are American and have a sex life, then of course the car companies want to know. they should know. Its fine

Anyone who complians has something to hide, etc etc...

[georgeyboy12345]

Being cynical I'd wager this is already happening in this country and it'll all blow up in a few years time once everyone finds out about it. Then there will be a big reclaim thing like the PPI or dieselgate scandal or post office scandal, but nobody will get anything as usual.

[Dingu]

georgeyboy12345 said:

Being cynical I'd wager this is already happening in this country and it'll all blow up in a few years time once everyone finds out about it. Then there will be a big reclaim thing like the PPI or dieselgate scandal or post office scandal, but nobody will get anything as usual.

Don’t get too excited mentally spending the payout.

[bloomen]

Dingu said:

Don’t get too excited mentally spending the payout.

Mine's already been allocated to a Morris Minor. With daily bug sweeps.

[glazbagun]

Wasn't there a murder case in the UK where the guys Range Rover grassed him up? He left his phone at home, drove to the middle of nowhere, shot a guy with a crossbow, drove his car away, burned it, claimed the insurance... and when the police investgated JLR had records of where the car had been and when the door was opened/closed, etc.

So presumably it's already doable here.

[ITP]

All new cars sold from July 2024 will have the EU mandated ISA system. Part of this is a black box type data recorder that sends all your driving data, location, speed, etc etc including how often you turn off all the ‘safety’ cr@p to people who no doubt care little for your privacy and what they do with the data. It really won’t be for your benefit. Of course when the realise that everyone turns off all the cr@p before they even leave their driveway the option to turn off will be swiftly removed. So you’ll be stuck with lane departure trying to kill you and insane bonging all the time.
But it’s all for “your safety” apparently, and the data can’t be pinned on any individual, they say, oh no.

[Crafty_]

ITP said:

All new cars sold from July 2024 will have the EU mandated ISA system. Part of this is a black box type data recorder that sends all your driving data, location, speed, etc etc including how often you turn off all the ‘safety’ cr@p to people who no doubt care little for your privacy and what they do with the data. It really won’t be for your benefit. Of course when the realise that everyone turns off all the cr@p before they even leave their driveway the option to turn off will be swiftly removed. So you’ll be stuck with lane departure trying to kill you and insane bonging all the time.
But it’s all for “your safety” apparently, and the data can’t be pinned on any individual, they say, oh no.

Do you have proof of any of this ?

ISA is a speed limiter system that has various ways of alerting the driver they are exceeding the limit.

Unrelated to that is the use of crash recorders, which will:

Activate when selt belt tensioners or airbag are activated
Record 30 seconds of data preceeding the incident and 10 after.
Data is owned by the driver if identified, the owner of the car if not.

I see no mention of sending data in regular use, nor any monitoring - its just to be used in the case of accidents as part of any investigation that might ensue.

[KarlMac]

Surely someone in the US is going to start campaigning for something like GDPR? It’s insane the amount of data harvesting/reselling that goes on.

[glazbagun]

Here's the murder case I mentioned above:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51466273

His partners Range Rover tracked his movements & tge opening of the doors and boot near the murder scene. It was later butned out but had already transmitted everything to JLR.

[ITP]

Crafty_ said:

ITP said:

All new cars sold from July 2024 will have the EU mandated ISA system. Part of this is a black box type data recorder that sends all your driving data, location, speed, etc etc including how often you turn off all the ‘safety’ cr@p to people who no doubt care little for your privacy and what they do with the data. It really won’t be for your benefit. Of course when the realise that everyone turns off all the cr@p before they even leave their driveway the option to turn off will be swiftly removed. So you’ll be stuck with lane departure trying to kill you and insane bonging all the time.
But it’s all for “your safety” apparently, and the data can’t be pinned on any individual, they say, oh no.

Do you have proof of any of this ?

ISA is a speed limiter system that has various ways of alerting the driver they are exceeding the limit.

Unrelated to that is the use of crash recorders, which will:

Activate when selt belt tensioners or airbag are activated
Record 30 seconds of data preceeding the incident and 10 after.
Data is owned by the driver if identified, the owner of the car if not.

I see no mention of sending data in regular use, nor any monitoring - its just to be used in the case of accidents as part of any investigation that might ensue.

[Crafty_]

ITP said:

Crafty_ said:

ITP said:

All new cars sold from July 2024 will have the EU mandated ISA system. Part of this is a black box type data recorder that sends all your driving data, location, speed, etc etc including how often you turn off all the ‘safety’ cr@p to people who no doubt care little for your privacy and what they do with the data. It really won’t be for your benefit. Of course when the realise that everyone turns off all the cr@p before they even leave their driveway the option to turn off will be swiftly removed. So you’ll be stuck with lane departure trying to kill you and insane bonging all the time.
But it’s all for “your safety” apparently, and the data can’t be pinned on any individual, they say, oh no.

Do you have proof of any of this ?

ISA is a speed limiter system that has various ways of alerting the driver they are exceeding the limit.

Unrelated to that is the use of crash recorders, which will:

Activate when selt belt tensioners or airbag are activated
Record 30 seconds of data preceeding the incident and 10 after.
Data is owned by the driver if identified, the owner of the car if not.

I see no mention of sending data in regular use, nor any monitoring - its just to be used in the case of accidents as part of any investigation that might ensue.

According to that it will not:
Report if "all the safety crap" is turned on or off, just the ISA system
Report location
Report speed
Report in time, how long the car is driven with ISA enabled/disabled.

What it will report is "vehicle spent 26% of its driven time with ISA disabled, 6% of this time ISA warnings were given to the driver. Average time between switch on and ISA being disabled is 13 minutes".
There's some other data that refers to another paragraph about the warnings being given, looks like it'll give some sort of comparison of the number of times or possibly a ratio of the warnings given (e.g. acoustic vs haptic).

I'd suggest that they're collecting simple usage data of the ISA system, probably to gauge its effectiveness as a system, they can answer basic stuff like:
- How quickly do drivers disable the system (i.e. is it habitual or only on occasion?)
- Percentage of driving time/distance are made with the system on/off
- Some indication of which warning is provided to drivers

There's not a whole lot there and certainly not enough to identify the driver of a shared vehicle, the data won't even show if you're 1mph over a perceived speed limit or 20. Note the perceived limit, given inaccuracies as someone pointed out earlier, the data will likely not be finite.

On top of that remember that the Germans (who lets be honest drive alot of what the EU does) are generally quite privacy conscious ( see Germanwings 9525 as an example of where that was a bad thing) the reality doesn't quite match up to your description/fears.

[ITP]

Crafty_ said:

ITP said:

Crafty_ said:

ITP said:

All new cars sold from July 2024 will have the EU mandated ISA system. Part of this is a black box type data recorder that sends all your driving data, location, speed, etc etc including how often you turn off all the ‘safety’ cr@p to people who no doubt care little for your privacy and what they do with the data. It really won’t be for your benefit. Of course when the realise that everyone turns off all the cr@p before they even leave their driveway the option to turn off will be swiftly removed. So you’ll be stuck with lane departure trying to kill you and insane bonging all the time.
But it’s all for “your safety” apparently, and the data can’t be pinned on any individual, they say, oh no.

Do you have proof of any of this ?

ISA is a speed limiter system that has various ways of alerting the driver they are exceeding the limit.

Unrelated to that is the use of crash recorders, which will:

Activate when selt belt tensioners or airbag are activated
Record 30 seconds of data preceeding the incident and 10 after.
Data is owned by the driver if identified, the owner of the car if not.

I see no mention of sending data in regular use, nor any monitoring - its just to be used in the case of accidents as part of any investigation that might ensue.

According to that it will not:
Report if "all the safety crap" is turned on or off, just the ISA system
Report location
Report speed
Report in time, how long the car is driven with ISA enabled/disabled.

What it will report is "vehicle spent 26% of its driven time with ISA disabled, 6% of this time ISA warnings were given to the driver. Average time between switch on and ISA being disabled is 13 minutes".
There's some other data that refers to another paragraph about the warnings being given, looks like it'll give some sort of comparison of the number of times or possibly a ratio of the warnings given (e.g. acoustic vs haptic).

I'd suggest that they're collecting simple usage data of the ISA system, probably to gauge its effectiveness as a system, they can answer basic stuff like:
- How quickly do drivers disable the system (i.e. is it habitual or only on occasion?)
- Percentage of driving time/distance are made with the system on/off
- Some indication of which warning is provided to drivers

There's not a whole lot there and certainly not enough to identify the driver of a shared vehicle, the data won't even show if you're 1mph over a perceived speed limit or 20. Note the perceived limit, given inaccuracies as someone pointed out earlier, the data will likely not be finite.

On top of that remember that the Germans (who lets be honest drive alot of what the EU does) are generally quite privacy conscious ( see Germanwings 9525 as an example of where that was a bad thing) the reality doesn't quite match up to your description/fears.

I hope you are right, you are a much more trusting person than I am!
Of course, as has been said, in very serious accidents and serious crimes, authorities have been able to gain access to data in cars for years, it seems now like this data is being harvested for different reasons.
I guess we will know soon enough. Let’s see, but the Mozilla report is a concern.