Should you pay for diagnostics if they fail to diagnose?

[Percent]

I left my car at a garage to do a MOT and to fix a cutting-out issue with my E36 328i. It cuts out normally when warm and normally when coming to a stop. I have already cleaned out the ICV myself so it was rattling freely as well as an oil change, New intake hose, and New hose going into the ICV itself.

The MOT was done on 16th of May and failed with a few small issues. They said they could fix them on the 24th of May. I agreed and left the car with them.

The garage still has the car as of today and can't identify the cause of this cutting out. I called this morning and said don't bother fixing the stalling issue and I'll just take the car [As I don't have faith they can fix it] They said there is something the mechanic wants to check this afternoon with the ignition and then we'll call you back before close. So I agreed to that although they didn't call back.

So if I get hit with a MOT repair bill plus 20+ odd hours of diagnostics should I pay it even if the issue isn't solved?

You may say ring them but I've called about 6 times since 16th May and most times there isn't even a receptionist, it's the guy trying to figure out the issue due to 'people on holiday' 'stacked out' On one occasion the mechanic got annoyed with me for even calling. Claiming that every time I call it's frustrating as he has to stop working.

I regret taking it there, the only reason I did was because it's next-door to a body shop I also wanted to use.

[Tenacious]

I guess so as you're paying for their time spent when they could be doing other jobs?

[MitchT]

If your car has a fault and they fail to diagnose it you shouldn't have to pay. Their diagnostic equipment has failed, not you. You should not have to pay someone for their equipment failing to do its job.

[Percent]

Maybe it's not so much their equipment but more like they are checking the wrong parts? It's not like they are plugging in a computer to show a code. They have done things like smoke tests, checking ignition [whatever that means] etc. But in the end I still have a car which cuts out.

[Steve93]

MitchT said:

If your car has a fault and they fail to diagnose it you shouldn't have to pay. Their diagnostic equipment has failed, not you. You should not have to pay someone for their equipment failing to do its job.

So people work for free now?

I'd be surprised if you get handed a bill for 20 plus hours. More likely the garage has been busy with faster moving stuff like brakes/servicing/MOT stuff and have been working on your car when they get a moment.

However if they do hand you a bill like that, I would not pay it and instead negotiate a fair price

I've seen me spend 8+ hours diagnosing issues caused by another garage fitting an engine via catapult and causing multiple wiring faults in the process, and it was still billed out at 3 hours diagnosis/repair

[Scrump]

Percent said:

Maybe it's not so much their equipment but more like they are checking the wrong parts? It's not like they are plugging in a computer to show a code. They have done things like smoke tests, checking ignition [whatever that means] etc. But in the end I still have a car which cuts out.

Fault finding often means “checking the wrong parts” until the faulty part is found, checking parts and discounting them as the cause of the problem is part of the fault finding process.

[ian332isport]

I’d be looking at the crank or possibly cam sensors for the symptoms you have.

[Percent]

ian332isport said:

I’d be looking at the crank or possibly cam sensors for the symptoms you have.

Thanks. FYI It had been sitting for a 1.5 years in a garage. I did an Oil and Filter change and this issue started. Hopefully, it's just the cam sensor, not the entire crank that needs replacing, that sounds expensive.

[Tenacious]

Percent said:

ian332isport said:

I’d be looking at the crank or possibly cam sensors for the symptoms you have.

Thanks. FYI It had been sitting for a 1.5 years in a garage. I did an Oil and Filter change and this issue started. Hopefully, it's just the cam sensor, not the entire crank that needs replacing, that sounds expensive.

He means the crank sensor.

[Davie]

Yes, you should pay but not an unexpected invoice for 20hrs labour if you didn't authorise that.

But it's a tricky one... a lot of places will have a minimum charge to read the codes and present them yo you. Or read the codes and spend an hour going through them in further detail - a code for an rpm signal fault doesn't mean "Replace crank sensor" when it could be a number of contributory factors. You'd be pretty miffed if they stuck in a sensor "because computer said do" then found the loom gad been mangled.

An hour charged is the norm, bearing in mind "Just plug it in mate" still takes a mechanic off another job and usually involves a few grands worth of diagnostic equipment. Not happy that it's not free... buy your own? It also comes down to reputation and trust. An hour's charge might be Darryl drives it to the shop at lunch time and back. Or an hours labour could have been their best guy and subject matter expert depending 3hrs on an off between jobs trying to find an elusive fault and fixing it.

But ultimately, you need to have trust that whoever it is will do it right, honestly and efficiently and probably best to agree some limits first. "Spend an hour then can you call me" or "Up to £200" and so on. So in this case, if you didn't have that discussion and didn't agree to that much time being spent... I'd say you'd be right to argue it. But you might not see your car again until the garage gets what they want - again, choose your man very carefully.

[MitchT]

Steve93 said:

So people work for free now?

I suppose my annoyance around the issue is when a car is under warranty and has a fault so you take it to the main dealer where it's attached to a computer which can't find a fault. Then you get charged for the diagnostic becuase it's only covered by the warranty if a fault is found. Because a fault isn't found you get charged, but there is a fault. So now you have a car which still has a fault and you've been charged for the fact that their fancy equipment failed detect said fault... so now it's somehow my fault that their diagnostic equipment is st.

[Mr Tidy]

To be fair they have spent some time on it which doesn't come free so not unreasonably they expect to be paid for it.

But leaving it there was probably where it all went wrong!

I took my 2005 BMW 330i for an MOT last year and after it passed I couldn't get the driver's door open from outside or inside, even though all the other doors were unlocked and wouldn't lock. The guys at the Testing Station tried disconnecting the battery for a while hoping for a reset that didn't happen. Then they suggested booking it in so they could remove the drivers' side rear door to remove the lock from the drivers' door, but luckily I declined.

Climbed in from the passenger side and booked it in at my BMW Indy. It seems the central locking fuse had blown and the default setting was what I had. They replaced the fuse which also blew, so did some electrical wizardry and found an open circuit on the rear passenger door lock. Replaced the lock and fitted another fuse and it was all sorted without removing any doors!

Which is why I stick to BMW specialists - and not main dealers.

[gotoPzero]

If I have to leave a car for diag I always say 1 or 2 hours max diagnostic and if they cant trace if then I need to approve more time.
Always put it in email too.

[Richard-D]

gotoPzero said:

If I have to leave a car for diag I always say 1 or 2 hours max diagnostic and if they cant trace if then I need to approve more time.
Always put it in email too.

This is the best way to deal with diagnostics in my opinion. It takes time to investigate faults and this has to be paid for. A garage shouldn't be running up a couple of full days without something to show for it though. They should have realised that it was beyond their abilities before that point and called an end to it.

[Rough101]

They spent some time, it’s fair to pay them, but if it’s more than an hour or two, they should get authorisation

[Steve93]

MitchT said:

Steve93 said:

So people work for free now?

I suppose my annoyance around the issue is when a car is under warranty and has a fault so you take it to the main dealer where it's attached to a computer which can't find a fault. Then you get charged for the diagnostic becuase it's only covered by the warranty if a fault is found. Because a fault isn't found you get charged, but there is a fault. So now you have a car which still has a fault and you've been charged for the fact that their fancy equipment failed detect said fault... so now it's somehow my fault that their diagnostic equipment is st.

That's a poor mechanic/technician then

The computer is a tool, and it's all dependent on the tool operating it. A lot of places will plug in a computer and then load the parts cannon with whatever the computer has told them has a fault.

My own car had a poor running fault a while ago, didn't throw an EML just ran like a bag of crap and felt hesitant all through the rev range. No faults to go on, but plugged it in and got live readings then noticed the intake air temp was reading -40 degrees, so the ecu was fueling as if the car was in the Arctic. One new MAF sensor later and all was good. Diagnostic machines are only as good as the person using them.

[off_again]

Fellow BMW owner with weird and hard to track down electronic issues - I feel the pain and its real.

Should you pay for the diagnostics? Yeah, probably unless its been absolutely useless and you can prove they didnt even try. Otherwise, you probably do need to pay. However, move on to a different place. Personally, I would just find a different place that can help, and go off as many recommendations that you can.

I have a couple of places I can use for sorting out my troublesome BMW, but it took me a decent amount of time. One of the places is tucked away on a small industrial park and its a married couple that run it. I fear they will retire soon, but while I can, I am going to go back to them as much as possible. And they havent over charged on any diagnostics to date.

[anonymous-user]

Steve93 said:

MitchT said:

Steve93 said:

So people work for free now?

I suppose my annoyance around the issue is when a car is under warranty and has a fault so you take it to the main dealer where it's attached to a computer which can't find a fault. Then you get charged for the diagnostic becuase it's only covered by the warranty if a fault is found. Because a fault isn't found you get charged, but there is a fault. So now you have a car which still has a fault and you've been charged for the fact that their fancy equipment failed detect said fault... so now it's somehow my fault that their diagnostic equipment is st.

That's a poor mechanic/technician then

The computer is a tool, and it's all dependent on the tool operating it. A lot of places will plug in a computer and then load the parts cannon with whatever the computer has told them has a fault.

My own car had a poor running fault a while ago, didn't throw an EML just ran like a bag of crap and felt hesitant all through the rev range. No faults to go on, but plugged it in and got live readings then noticed the intake air temp was reading -40 degrees, so the ecu was fueling as if the car was in the Arctic. One new MAF sensor later and all was good. Diagnostic machines are only as good as the person using them.

Diagnostic machines are only as good as the person who designed them
A diagnostic machine can only find faults it has been designed to detect, unless of course you're talking about the human brain which is a "Diagnostic Machine"

[Pit Pony]

MitchT said:

I suppose my annoyance around the issue is when a car is under warranty and has a fault so you take it to the main dealer where it's attached to a computer which can't find a fault. Then you get charged for the diagnostic becuase it's only covered by the warranty if a fault is found. Because a fault isn't found you get charged, but there is a fault. So now you have a car which still has a fault and you've been charged for the fact that their fancy equipment failed detect said fault... so now it's somehow my fault that their diagnostic equipment is st.

I would phase it that the diagnostic software within the equipment isn't sophisticated enough to pin down the fault. And that's the fault of whoever is designing the software. The equipment hardware probably isn't st, but the software team is.

[Davie]

MitchT said:

I suppose my annoyance around the issue is when a car is under warranty and has a fault so you take it to the main dealer where it's attached to a computer which can't find a fault. Then you get charged for the diagnostic becuase it's only covered by the warranty if a fault is found.

A car under warranty, any warranty, doesn't mean all costs ate covered more do initial diagnosis. A lot of time customer will be asked to agreed to potential diagnosis costs to allow the garage to investigated and then decide if it's a warranty concern or not. If it's deemed not and the garage has doesn't time investigating... who covers that cost? Not the garage. Not the warranty provider. But you, the customer.

Example being a "new" and under warranty Trafic that had odd electrical vices. Customer kicked off when told he'd be liable for initial costs etc if it wasn't a warranty concern. Cue shouting, threats of consumer law and all that.

After a quick initial look, found coffee had been spilt down the dash board... Renault warranty department told him to jog on.

Lot's of other examples too. Like the wind noise from a passenger door that turned out to be a poor crash repair or the metallic jingling noise from the seat in a VW Polo that turned out to be a Lindt chocolate bunny with a decorative bell round its neck. Or the strange noise from the rear of a Volvo S60 that was a golf ball rolling around the spare wheel well and the centre console cubby hole that would open as the customers tampon holder had wedged behind the clip.

None of which the manufacturer covered under their warranty.