Enjoyment in Simplicity
Discussion
I’ve been thinking (uh-oh)… Modern car ownership is a daunting prospect. I don’t mean PCP/lease type deals where - similarly to a rented property - if something major breaks, it’s not your problem. I mean outright ownership and the expense of fixing relatively simple failures.
It seems the UK car industry is going much the same way as the US healthcare/insurance industry where the hospitals charge vast fees on paper because the insurance companies never actually pay the full price after various deductions. Dealers seem to (anecdotally at least) charge enormous amounts for plugging vehicles into their computer and then throw vastly expensive whole new parts at problems rather than actually diagnosing, and repairing what’s actually wrong.
I’ve always owned my cars outright, my newest vehicle is my 166k miles E91 325i. I bought it nearly 11 years ago. I deliberately didn’t want iDrive at the time due to my aversion to expensive electronics going wrong. As and when that dies and shuffles off this mortal coil to the great shed scrapyard in the sky, I’m genuinely not sure what I’ll replace it with. I don’t really want to burden the family budget with another monthly outgoing for a new (or nearly new) car that’ll be under warranty. I normally look in the 8-10 year old bracket, do my research, take my time, am picky about what I view and buy wisely.
The problem this time round is that the 8-10 year old cars I’m looking at all seem to full to the brim of needlessly complex tech - electric seats with various motors and sensors rather than a simple lever and ratchet. Ginormous touchscreen units for controls rather than simple levers and knobs. I’m worried about taking on such a vehicle.
A new neighbour moved in over the road last month and I got talking to them. Their son showed up in a lovely, well kept and maintained 1990s Fiat Panda. Not the 4x4, but the same square body shape. He’s done some tasteful OEM+ mods to it and it looked ace.
I have started idly pondering and browsing classifieds (It’s an interesting diversion if nothing else) and thinking what joyously simple vehicles there are in the 8-10 year old bracket… The equivalent of the 1990s Fiat Panda? Something that’s devoid of over complicated, expensive technology? A Dacia Duster perhaps? Or the new Fiat Panda… the 100hp looks fun…?
It seems the UK car industry is going much the same way as the US healthcare/insurance industry where the hospitals charge vast fees on paper because the insurance companies never actually pay the full price after various deductions. Dealers seem to (anecdotally at least) charge enormous amounts for plugging vehicles into their computer and then throw vastly expensive whole new parts at problems rather than actually diagnosing, and repairing what’s actually wrong.
I’ve always owned my cars outright, my newest vehicle is my 166k miles E91 325i. I bought it nearly 11 years ago. I deliberately didn’t want iDrive at the time due to my aversion to expensive electronics going wrong. As and when that dies and shuffles off this mortal coil to the great shed scrapyard in the sky, I’m genuinely not sure what I’ll replace it with. I don’t really want to burden the family budget with another monthly outgoing for a new (or nearly new) car that’ll be under warranty. I normally look in the 8-10 year old bracket, do my research, take my time, am picky about what I view and buy wisely.
The problem this time round is that the 8-10 year old cars I’m looking at all seem to full to the brim of needlessly complex tech - electric seats with various motors and sensors rather than a simple lever and ratchet. Ginormous touchscreen units for controls rather than simple levers and knobs. I’m worried about taking on such a vehicle.
A new neighbour moved in over the road last month and I got talking to them. Their son showed up in a lovely, well kept and maintained 1990s Fiat Panda. Not the 4x4, but the same square body shape. He’s done some tasteful OEM+ mods to it and it looked ace.
I have started idly pondering and browsing classifieds (It’s an interesting diversion if nothing else) and thinking what joyously simple vehicles there are in the 8-10 year old bracket… The equivalent of the 1990s Fiat Panda? Something that’s devoid of over complicated, expensive technology? A Dacia Duster perhaps? Or the new Fiat Panda… the 100hp looks fun…?
It's a subject that's been raised several times before, entirely justifiably, and has resulted in some manufacturers reversing the trend to touch screen-ism.
It's also the reason that two years ago I bought a 2016 MY Fiesta rather than a later model, KISS seems to have been ignored in the desire to 'add value' by car manufacturers in recent years, no doubt to pump up service and repair costs.
It's also the reason that two years ago I bought a 2016 MY Fiesta rather than a later model, KISS seems to have been ignored in the desire to 'add value' by car manufacturers in recent years, no doubt to pump up service and repair costs.
A pcp can be a good thing if you perpetually lease cars one after another. Do you *need* to own it?
I’ve leased my past 4 cars and everytime they’ve been under warranty and if it’s a 3 year lease, MOT exempt.
In my opinion it can be a false economy buying an older car that’s out of warranty. From my previous experience running a banger, as soon as things go wrong you’re always chasing the next fault, like you’re fixing the weakest link in the chain and then the weak point moves onto something else. As soon as the car starts to corrode, that’s it done, there’s no stopping corrosion.
I scrapped my banger as the cost of an engine repair wasn’t viable. And to my astonishment the car garage still wouldn’t guarantee their work would even find the fault even though I was paying for their labour. I found it ironic the car garage priced themselves out of work by not offering this guarantee to find and fix the fault, it would be cheaper to get another car than strip down the engine and replace one part at a time.
I’ve leased my past 4 cars and everytime they’ve been under warranty and if it’s a 3 year lease, MOT exempt.
In my opinion it can be a false economy buying an older car that’s out of warranty. From my previous experience running a banger, as soon as things go wrong you’re always chasing the next fault, like you’re fixing the weakest link in the chain and then the weak point moves onto something else. As soon as the car starts to corrode, that’s it done, there’s no stopping corrosion.
I scrapped my banger as the cost of an engine repair wasn’t viable. And to my astonishment the car garage still wouldn’t guarantee their work would even find the fault even though I was paying for their labour. I found it ironic the car garage priced themselves out of work by not offering this guarantee to find and fix the fault, it would be cheaper to get another car than strip down the engine and replace one part at a time.
I agree wholeheartedly and no doubt will be labelled a luddite by some, which i have no problem with. The trouble for me in trying to stick with older vehicles is cost still comes into it, particularly with road tax now being 700 quid for some i would like to own.
I am going to end up stuck i think as there is a definite cut off for what i am willing to drive. I am waiting on a car being delivered this weekend and have borrowed my daughters 2019 A1 a couple of times. Horrific driving experience with bings and bongs going off to tell you to fill the screen washer bottle, fill up with fuel (anyone that needs a loud audible alert to do those things shouldn't be bloody driving) the steering wheel vibrating and unwanted steering inputs due to lane assist . It was much better with all the crap turned off on the second drive once she told me where the button was although i believe that option is being legislated out at some point.
The scary thing is not only are there people out there spending careers designing this nonsense but there are people that actively seek it and see it as "premium" features on a car, especially bloody screens where you are scrolling through multiple screens for the in car entertainment menus. Driving the bloody car reasonably well IS the entertainment ! The Merc that took us to our hotel on holiday this year was like that, the driver spent nearly the entire journey with one hand mucking about on the screen.
I like having a car where i can do 500 mile plus round fishing trips over two or three days in rural Scotland without having to fill up so diesel is best for my use case. I'm hoping i can keep the one i have just bought for as long as possible and it won't be priced off the road through road or fuel tax increases. I won't be holding my breath though. I was recently looking for a fun car that would be suitable for a few euro trips/nurburgring laps but with car running costs heading the way they are i think i will just have to get something more interesting for our other family car when the current one is due to be changed in a year or so, instead of a keeper.
I am going to end up stuck i think as there is a definite cut off for what i am willing to drive. I am waiting on a car being delivered this weekend and have borrowed my daughters 2019 A1 a couple of times. Horrific driving experience with bings and bongs going off to tell you to fill the screen washer bottle, fill up with fuel (anyone that needs a loud audible alert to do those things shouldn't be bloody driving) the steering wheel vibrating and unwanted steering inputs due to lane assist . It was much better with all the crap turned off on the second drive once she told me where the button was although i believe that option is being legislated out at some point.
The scary thing is not only are there people out there spending careers designing this nonsense but there are people that actively seek it and see it as "premium" features on a car, especially bloody screens where you are scrolling through multiple screens for the in car entertainment menus. Driving the bloody car reasonably well IS the entertainment ! The Merc that took us to our hotel on holiday this year was like that, the driver spent nearly the entire journey with one hand mucking about on the screen.
I like having a car where i can do 500 mile plus round fishing trips over two or three days in rural Scotland without having to fill up so diesel is best for my use case. I'm hoping i can keep the one i have just bought for as long as possible and it won't be priced off the road through road or fuel tax increases. I won't be holding my breath though. I was recently looking for a fun car that would be suitable for a few euro trips/nurburgring laps but with car running costs heading the way they are i think i will just have to get something more interesting for our other family car when the current one is due to be changed in a year or so, instead of a keeper.
Edited by wc98 on Tuesday 1st October 14:00
Riley Blue said:
It's a subject that's been raised several times before, entirely justifiably, and has resulted in some manufacturers reversing the trend to touch screen-ism.
It's also the reason that two years ago I bought a 2016 MY Fiesta rather than a later model, KISS seems to have been ignored in the desire to 'add value' by car manufacturers in recent years, no doubt to pump up service and repair costs.
To be fair the iPad thing in the Mk8 Fiesta is much simpler than the radio in the Mk7 which was totally unintelligible, especially with the Sony unit. Good luck tuning the DAB!It's also the reason that two years ago I bought a 2016 MY Fiesta rather than a later model, KISS seems to have been ignored in the desire to 'add value' by car manufacturers in recent years, no doubt to pump up service and repair costs.
timbob said:
IDealers seem to (anecdotally at least) charge enormous amounts for plugging vehicles into their computer and then throw vastly expensive whole new parts at problems rather than actually diagnosing, and repairing what’s actually wrong.
You need to look at parts cost vs labour rate.For instance a brake calliper be reconditioned with cheap parts but the labour cost means it's usually not worth doing.
As regards diagnosis, plugging in the computer to find out what's wrong can be a lot more efficient than just fitting new parts until the problem goes away.
HazzaT said:
Riley Blue said:
It's a subject that's been raised several times before, entirely justifiably, and has resulted in some manufacturers reversing the trend to touch screen-ism.
It's also the reason that two years ago I bought a 2016 MY Fiesta rather than a later model, KISS seems to have been ignored in the desire to 'add value' by car manufacturers in recent years, no doubt to pump up service and repair costs.
To be fair the iPad thing in the Mk8 Fiesta is much simpler than the radio in the Mk7 which was totally unintelligible, especially with the Sony unit. Good luck tuning the DAB!It's also the reason that two years ago I bought a 2016 MY Fiesta rather than a later model, KISS seems to have been ignored in the desire to 'add value' by car manufacturers in recent years, no doubt to pump up service and repair costs.
Mr Miata said:
In my opinion it can be a false economy buying an older car that’s out of warranty. From my previous experience running a banger, as soon as things go wrong you’re always chasing the next fault, like you’re fixing the weakest link in the chain and then the weak point moves onto something else. As soon as the car starts to corrode, that’s it done, there’s no stopping corrosion.
It sounds like the last time you ran a car out of warranty was about 1987? Nothing corrodes until it's 15+ years old now, and pretty much nothing is any real trouble to run for the first 10-15 years.GeniusOfLove said:
It sounds like the last time you ran a car out of warranty was about 1987? Nothing corrodes until it's 15+ years old now, and pretty much nothing is any real trouble to run for the first 10-15 years.
I call BS on that statement. Every single one of the new, or nearly new, cars we have bought over the last 5 years have had technical issues of some sort or another. Particularly cars built during Covid.We looked at a 2018 Mustang GT a coupe of weeks ago, rusty wheel-arches amongst other issues.
timbob said:
I’ve been thinking (uh-oh)… .. Or the new Fiat Panda… the 100hp looks fun…?
I think this is the thread for you to read......https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
garypotter said:
HazzaT said:
To be fair the iPad thing in the Mk8 Fiesta is much simpler than the radio in the Mk7 which was totally unintelligible, especially with the Sony unit. Good luck tuning the DAB!
But how long before the IPAD software is out of date and cannot be updated!!timbob said:
I’ve always owned my cars outright, my newest vehicle is my 166k miles E91 325i. I bought it nearly 11 years ago. I deliberately didn’t want iDrive at the time due to my aversion to expensive electronics going wrong. As and when that dies and shuffles off this mortal coil to the great shed scrapyard in the sky, I’m genuinely not sure what I’ll replace it with. I don’t really want to burden the family budget with another monthly outgoing for a new (or nearly new) car that’ll be under warranty. I normally look in the 8-10 year old bracket, do my research, take my time, am picky about what I view and buy wisely.
The problem this time round is that the 8-10 year old cars I’m looking at all seem to full to the brim of needlessly complex tech - electric seats with various motors and sensors rather than a simple lever and ratchet. Ginormous touchscreen units for controls rather than simple levers and knobs. I’m worried about taking on such a vehicle.
You could look for a E91 325i with half your miles and use that for a few more years? defer the decision. I'm always looking at old stuff and slightly fearful of the new, I'm in a really old V70 at present (even those can have electronic issues - although the older the car generally the more likely there is a specialist to repair things at a reasonably cost). The problem this time round is that the 8-10 year old cars I’m looking at all seem to full to the brim of needlessly complex tech - electric seats with various motors and sensors rather than a simple lever and ratchet. Ginormous touchscreen units for controls rather than simple levers and knobs. I’m worried about taking on such a vehicle.
I am keeping an eye on the 2017/18 cars where the tax band is a fixed sum and prepared to slum it for a few years to wait for something that age to come down to my price comfort level.
If only there was a 571 thread for this sort of thing, maybe call it "The joy of owning a shed" or something similar?
I think most people own a car outright as they don't want any sort of monthly payments. This is the main reason I do it, I just see leasing or paying monthly PCP payments as throwing money away. This is my personal opinion, I 100% understand why people buy or lease brand new cars so lets not have an argument.
My car is 2011 so has enough tech for me (parking sensors, sat nav, bluetooth, cruise, USB etc) but not a touch screen, LCD instrument display or lane departure/speed warning in sight.
It also has feel, something that a 2024 Clio I drove the other day didn't.
I want a car that is modern ish, but I can still work on without having to go to a dealer. I also don't want any of the recent nanny state technology that must be fitted to cars.
I buy 10 year old cars and drive them until they die, I guess it won't be long before my options start to decrease in what I can buy anymore.
I think most people own a car outright as they don't want any sort of monthly payments. This is the main reason I do it, I just see leasing or paying monthly PCP payments as throwing money away. This is my personal opinion, I 100% understand why people buy or lease brand new cars so lets not have an argument.
My car is 2011 so has enough tech for me (parking sensors, sat nav, bluetooth, cruise, USB etc) but not a touch screen, LCD instrument display or lane departure/speed warning in sight.
It also has feel, something that a 2024 Clio I drove the other day didn't.
I want a car that is modern ish, but I can still work on without having to go to a dealer. I also don't want any of the recent nanny state technology that must be fitted to cars.
I buy 10 year old cars and drive them until they die, I guess it won't be long before my options start to decrease in what I can buy anymore.
Our Prado sized Landcruiser is now 19 years old and am in full agreement with the OP.
It'll probably still be running fine when i pop me clogs unless our more equal than other masters outlaw it entirely or tax it off the road, course they might make the assisted suicide bill compulsory in the meantime
Have already decided if it does peg out before me will replace it with another Toyota, probably a Corolla hybrid estate, Toyota's hybrid running gear is proving reliable and durable, every taxi driver and his dog can't be wrong.
It'll probably still be running fine when i pop me clogs unless our more equal than other masters outlaw it entirely or tax it off the road, course they might make the assisted suicide bill compulsory in the meantime
Have already decided if it does peg out before me will replace it with another Toyota, probably a Corolla hybrid estate, Toyota's hybrid running gear is proving reliable and durable, every taxi driver and his dog can't be wrong.
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
If only there was a 571 thread for this sort of thing, maybe call it "The joy of owning a shed" or something similar?
I think most people own a car outright as they don't want any sort of monthly payments. This is the main reason I do it, I just see leasing or paying monthly PCP payments as throwing money away. This is my personal opinion, I 100% understand why people buy or lease brand new cars so lets not have an argument.
My car is 2011 so has enough tech for me (parking sensors, sat nav, bluetooth, cruise, USB etc) but not a touch screen, LCD instrument display or lane departure/speed warning in sight.
It also has feel, something that a 2024 Clio I drove the other day didn't.
I want a car that is modern ish, but I can still work on without having to go to a dealer. I also don't want any of the recent nanny state technology that must be fitted to cars.
I buy 10 year old cars and drive them until they die, I guess it won't be long before my options start to decrease in what I can buy anymore.
I was in the same situation. 10 year old cars are still full of electronic junk which I can't honestly say will not sI think most people own a car outright as they don't want any sort of monthly payments. This is the main reason I do it, I just see leasing or paying monthly PCP payments as throwing money away. This is my personal opinion, I 100% understand why people buy or lease brand new cars so lets not have an argument.
My car is 2011 so has enough tech for me (parking sensors, sat nav, bluetooth, cruise, USB etc) but not a touch screen, LCD instrument display or lane departure/speed warning in sight.
It also has feel, something that a 2024 Clio I drove the other day didn't.
I want a car that is modern ish, but I can still work on without having to go to a dealer. I also don't want any of the recent nanny state technology that must be fitted to cars.
I buy 10 year old cars and drive them until they die, I guess it won't be long before my options start to decrease in what I can buy anymore.
t itself.I ended up with an 18 year old car - did all preventative maintenance and now looking forward to thrashing it for the next 10-15 years..
For the older car buyer, that emissions are now more strict and linked to the VIN and lots of these 'extra features' are MOT failures if not working, elevates the risk or least perception of risk.
It feels like it will be harder/more costly to keep a new car on the road as it ages than it used to be?
It feels like it will be harder/more costly to keep a new car on the road as it ages than it used to be?
Panamax said:
timbob said:
IDealers seem to (anecdotally at least) charge enormous amounts for plugging vehicles into their computer and then throw vastly expensive whole new parts at problems rather than actually diagnosing, and repairing what’s actually wrong.
You need to look at parts cost vs labour rate.For instance a brake calliper be reconditioned with cheap parts but the labour cost means it's usually not worth doing.
As regards diagnosis, plugging in the computer to find out what's wrong can be a lot more efficient than just fitting new parts until the problem goes away.
My BMW had a fault when I got it. Unknown to me at the time (obviously), but when starting from cold in cold weather, the engine would occasionally hesitate and the car would go into limp mode. No engine light thrown, but turning it off and on again “cured” the issue.
Made a few enquiries. Was quoted £LOL for an entire brand new cylinder head at one place after they read the codes.
What I needed - and found - was a local independent specialist who was able to correctly diagnose the problem. IIRC it was the oil pump to the VANOS system. They stripped it and repaired it. Interestingly all the impellers and bits and bobs they replaced looked to have been slightly redesigned on the newer parts. In the end it cost less than 20% what I’d been quoted for the new cylinder head “because the computer said so”.
timbob said:
I think the modern way is just fitting new parts until the problem goes away…! They read the code and say “new turbo sir”, “new engine sir”, rather than working out which component has actually failed and then repairing that part.
It's not just cars it is everything. In my BTL I have a shower mixer tap that when I lived there was playing up. I bought a repair kit online of o rings and a valve and repaired it in half an hour watching a YouTube video.Ten years on and it plays up again, only this time because it is rented I get a plumber to fix it. Their solution to fix it was to replace the whole thing and then need to retile the whole wall as they pulled these off to get access to the pipes.
Cost me £5 the first time, £500 the second time.
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