Driving properly in snow and ice?
Discussion
As mentioned on other posts, there are car `drivers' and car `users' and they are not the same thing.
A car `driver' is a person who is interested in cars and how to use them.
A car `user' is a person, for whom for a car is just another tick on their white goods list , They know little about cars (Perhaps which ones are the flashiest and most expensive looking), and care little about learning how they work, or how to drive them properly.
The car `user' is the one who goes out in bad conditions, when they really should not, because that is what they `normally' do , and who typically then gets caught out by the weather (sometimes terminally) and often holding up large numbers of other road users.
A case in point happened near me on a road, which had a steep dip in it, and was very icy. A car `driver' understands that in a case like this, traction is going to be marginal, and if they are going to go down the dip, and up the other side, some momentum will be needed to assist what little traction is available to get the car up the far slope.
Along comes the car `user' (who should not be out on the roads anyway, in these conditions) who despite watching how the car `drivers' in front of them have dealt with the situation, chooses to putter down the down slope, with their brakes on all the way to the bottom, and who then discovers that they cannot get up the far side.
Sometimes the car user' idiots, don't form an unpassable blockage, at the bottom of the dip, and other car `drivers' are able to use the momentum technique to go down the dip past the car user and up the other side, and be on their way.
I wonder, if the car `user' sitting there, stranded at the bottom of the dip, ever wonders, why it is, that other motorist are able to drive down the dip, and up the other side, whilst they cannot move more than a few feet from the bottom of the dip, owing to their lack of driving ability?
A car `driver' is a person who is interested in cars and how to use them.
A car `user' is a person, for whom for a car is just another tick on their white goods list , They know little about cars (Perhaps which ones are the flashiest and most expensive looking), and care little about learning how they work, or how to drive them properly.
The car `user' is the one who goes out in bad conditions, when they really should not, because that is what they `normally' do , and who typically then gets caught out by the weather (sometimes terminally) and often holding up large numbers of other road users.
A case in point happened near me on a road, which had a steep dip in it, and was very icy. A car `driver' understands that in a case like this, traction is going to be marginal, and if they are going to go down the dip, and up the other side, some momentum will be needed to assist what little traction is available to get the car up the far slope.
Along comes the car `user' (who should not be out on the roads anyway, in these conditions) who despite watching how the car `drivers' in front of them have dealt with the situation, chooses to putter down the down slope, with their brakes on all the way to the bottom, and who then discovers that they cannot get up the far side.
Sometimes the car user' idiots, don't form an unpassable blockage, at the bottom of the dip, and other car `drivers' are able to use the momentum technique to go down the dip past the car user and up the other side, and be on their way.
I wonder, if the car `user' sitting there, stranded at the bottom of the dip, ever wonders, why it is, that other motorist are able to drive down the dip, and up the other side, whilst they cannot move more than a few feet from the bottom of the dip, owing to their lack of driving ability?
I believe that you are merely referring to a spectrum of competence and the categories of ‘drivers’ and ‘users’ are rather arbitrary, as is the repeated use of ‘apostrophes’….
If you feel better about yourself then great, but given the other variables at play that you have totally ignored, such as which and how many wheels are driven, manual or automatic and which gear is used, normal or winter tyres and how much tread is left, marks you out as a bit of a driving snob. The type of person who is a member of the institute of advanced motorists, who probably has a mini shovel in their boot and some Kendal mint cake in their glovebox.
If you feel better about yourself then great, but given the other variables at play that you have totally ignored, such as which and how many wheels are driven, manual or automatic and which gear is used, normal or winter tyres and how much tread is left, marks you out as a bit of a driving snob. The type of person who is a member of the institute of advanced motorists, who probably has a mini shovel in their boot and some Kendal mint cake in their glovebox.
I think a great proportion of drivers have never slid a car beyond the odd lurch on a greasy roundabout.
Best thing to do is to, if you have a bit of space on a snow covered car park, try braking and steering, try accelerating and try cornering, get a feel at low speed for what happens.
Otherwise you seem to have those that drive at 0.6 mph panicking and you have the ones that seem to think it makes no difference and they can carry on as normal.
People with four wheel drive vehicles can be some of the worst, its like they know its better but not why seemingly believing physics no longer applies, but an X5 on almost 30 CM wide summer tyres really isnt that good on snow on ice, a lot of the time the four wheel drive seems to provide opportunities to accelerate faster, but they seem to forget that all cars also have four wheel brakes and you still need to get round corners and it will still slide.
Best advice is, if you dont have to go out, then dont ! Is your trip really necessary, even if you know what you are doing you can still get clattered by someone who doesn't, can it be deferred until the weather is better and the roads are gritted.
Best thing to do is to, if you have a bit of space on a snow covered car park, try braking and steering, try accelerating and try cornering, get a feel at low speed for what happens.
Otherwise you seem to have those that drive at 0.6 mph panicking and you have the ones that seem to think it makes no difference and they can carry on as normal.
People with four wheel drive vehicles can be some of the worst, its like they know its better but not why seemingly believing physics no longer applies, but an X5 on almost 30 CM wide summer tyres really isnt that good on snow on ice, a lot of the time the four wheel drive seems to provide opportunities to accelerate faster, but they seem to forget that all cars also have four wheel brakes and you still need to get round corners and it will still slide.
Best advice is, if you dont have to go out, then dont ! Is your trip really necessary, even if you know what you are doing you can still get clattered by someone who doesn't, can it be deferred until the weather is better and the roads are gritted.
dave123456 said:
I believe that you are merely referring to a spectrum of competence and the categories of ‘drivers’ and ‘users’ are rather arbitrary, as is the repeated use of ‘apostrophes’….
If you feel better about yourself then great, but given the other variables at play that you have totally ignored, such as which and how many wheels are driven, manual or automatic and which gear is used, normal or winter tyres and how much tread is left, marks you out as a bit of a driving snob. The type of person who is a member of the institute of advanced motorists, who probably has a mini shovel in their boot and some Kendal mint cake in their glovebox.
If you feel better about yourself then great, but given the other variables at play that you have totally ignored, such as which and how many wheels are driven, manual or automatic and which gear is used, normal or winter tyres and how much tread is left, marks you out as a bit of a driving snob. The type of person who is a member of the institute of advanced motorists, who probably has a mini shovel in their boot and some Kendal mint cake in their glovebox.
I can drive a small car on appropriate tyres in snow like it's a little mountain goat, I can have a go with a FWD hatch on touring tyres too, I drove a 500bhp RWD car all over the place in the "beast from the east" on winters but last week I couldn't get my XKR to gather the slightest bit of forward movement to even get out of a parking space on a set of Contact Sport 7s so am I a 'driver' or a 'user'?
Edited by GeniusOfLove on Sunday 12th January 13:40
My Dad was a copper, and even he told me that when its snowy and you are a newish driver, find a spot you can mess about in and just skid at slow speed, use the handbrake, lock the wheels up, just to feel what it is like, back then you could do this, there are farming areas, car parks with no gates so you could do this, did it help, I don't know, but the fact I tried meant I knew what a slide felt like, I knew what locking the rears would do or the fronts.
I probably learned more sodding about on airfields than anything else, And I also got asked to leave Cadwell Park once because I spent an entire MG Cup race outside of Charlies on the wet grass doing figure of eights around two Coke cans in a Vauxhall Chevette!!!
I had more of a shock the first time I felt ABS, it felt far more violent than I expected, and that the brakes had broken!!
I probably learned more sodding about on airfields than anything else, And I also got asked to leave Cadwell Park once because I spent an entire MG Cup race outside of Charlies on the wet grass doing figure of eights around two Coke cans in a Vauxhall Chevette!!!
I had more of a shock the first time I felt ABS, it felt far more violent than I expected, and that the brakes had broken!!
Ham_and_Jam said:
I think ‘Dave123456’ ‘sums’ it up well.
I second this.Also, how often do we get bad snow/ice in this country?
I've been riding/driving from 1982, and can remember only about six occasions down here in Sussex.
The lack of opportunity to practice, especially if you change cars between snow/icy conditions, means that you are left with little chance to obtain experience.
I get what the OP is trying to get at, there are people that use a car as nothing but transport and likely don't improve their driving much or certainly make no effort to over their driving life. This is versus someone who at least tries to be a better driver and puts some effort and understanding in. Then I guess there's those in between.
As for driving in ice and snow, I suppose it highlights the incompetence. My mum is a reasonable driver but in her early 70s now but is aware of her limitations. If there's snow on the roads, she will avoid driving as she knows she won't handle it well. Sadly not everyone has the option to stay indoors in adverse weather.
As for driving in ice and snow, I suppose it highlights the incompetence. My mum is a reasonable driver but in her early 70s now but is aware of her limitations. If there's snow on the roads, she will avoid driving as she knows she won't handle it well. Sadly not everyone has the option to stay indoors in adverse weather.
dave123456 said:
I believe that you are merely referring to a spectrum of competence and the categories of ‘drivers’ and ‘users’ are rather arbitrary, as is the repeated use of ‘apostrophes’….
If you feel better about yourself then great, but given the other variables at play that you have totally ignored, such as which and how many wheels are driven, manual or automatic and which gear is used, normal or winter tyres and how much tread is left, marks you out as a bit of a driving snob. The type of person who is a member of the institute of advanced motorists, who probably has a mini shovel in their boot and some Kendal mint cake in their glovebox.
Nope don't feel better, or worse, about myself. Just pointing out what happens on the road, and that many people, who are not suited to driving a vehicle on public roads, are getting into cars and driving on public roads.If you feel better about yourself then great, but given the other variables at play that you have totally ignored, such as which and how many wheels are driven, manual or automatic and which gear is used, normal or winter tyres and how much tread is left, marks you out as a bit of a driving snob. The type of person who is a member of the institute of advanced motorists, who probably has a mini shovel in their boot and some Kendal mint cake in their glovebox.
Why do you try to defend poor driving? Are you a poor driver yourself, who believes that anyone who wants to drive safely and properly is a driving snob? If so, `your' driving standards must be very very low.
Pan Pan Pan said:
dave123456 said:
I believe that you are merely referring to a spectrum of competence and the categories of ‘drivers’ and ‘users’ are rather arbitrary, as is the repeated use of ‘apostrophes’….
If you feel better about yourself then great, but given the other variables at play that you have totally ignored, such as which and how many wheels are driven, manual or automatic and which gear is used, normal or winter tyres and how much tread is left, marks you out as a bit of a driving snob. The type of person who is a member of the institute of advanced motorists, who probably has a mini shovel in their boot and some Kendal mint cake in their glovebox.
Nope don't feel better, or worse, about myself. Just pointing out what happens on the road, and that many people, who are not suited to driving a vehicle on public roads, are getting into cars and driving on public roads.If you feel better about yourself then great, but given the other variables at play that you have totally ignored, such as which and how many wheels are driven, manual or automatic and which gear is used, normal or winter tyres and how much tread is left, marks you out as a bit of a driving snob. The type of person who is a member of the institute of advanced motorists, who probably has a mini shovel in their boot and some Kendal mint cake in their glovebox.
Why do you try to defend poor driving? Are you a poor driver yourself, who believes that anyone who wants to drive safely and properly is a driving snob? If so, `your' driving standards must be very very low.
CG2020UK said:
Big believer that tyres matter way more than driving ability.
Indeed, I sold my Saab a while ago but had a set of steels with good winter tyres on as it spent some of its previous life in Poland where this was mandatory, they were like witchcraft in bad conditions and not noticeably awful when it was dry.The MR2 that replaced that car isn't really something I would use in poor conditions so I haven't felt the need to get a winter setup for it but I'd certainly consider it again for something more conventional, the problem is the weather is all over the place these days so you probably just want a good all-weather setup and accept the compromises.
I'm one of those that likes to go out and explore the behaviour and limits of a car in bad weather and consider myself a "driver" in the scope of this topic but at the end of the day physics generally wins and no matter how competent you are yourself it only takes one other driver stopping you keeping momentum up or just crashing into you to take the fun out of things.
Edited by thetapeworm on Monday 13th January 20:17
Alex_225 said:
I get what the OP is trying to get at, there are people that use a car as nothing but transport and likely don't improve their driving much or certainly make no effort to over their driving life. This is versus someone who at least tries to be a better driver and puts some effort and understanding in. Then I guess there's those in between.
As for driving in ice and snow, I suppose it highlights the incompetence. My mum is a reasonable driver but in her early 70s now but is aware of her limitations. If there's snow on the roads, she will avoid driving as she knows she won't handle it well. Sadly not everyone has the option to stay indoors in adverse weather.
This is exactly what I was getting at. It seems that unlike many, your mum knows when to drive, and when not to drive, based on her experience, particularly in bad weather conditions.As for driving in ice and snow, I suppose it highlights the incompetence. My mum is a reasonable driver but in her early 70s now but is aware of her limitations. If there's snow on the roads, she will avoid driving as she knows she won't handle it well. Sadly not everyone has the option to stay indoors in adverse weather.
The ones who think it will be no different, no matter what the conditions are the ones who get caught out, and who cause problems for other road users, are the menace on the roads.
Pan Pan Pan said:
dave123456 said:
I believe that you are merely referring to a spectrum of competence and the categories of ‘drivers’ and ‘users’ are rather arbitrary, as is the repeated use of ‘apostrophes’….
If you feel better about yourself then great, but given the other variables at play that you have totally ignored, such as which and how many wheels are driven, manual or automatic and which gear is used, normal or winter tyres and how much tread is left, marks you out as a bit of a driving snob. The type of person who is a member of the institute of advanced motorists, who probably has a mini shovel in their boot and some Kendal mint cake in their glovebox.
Nope don't feel better, or worse, about myself. Just pointing out what happens on the road, and that many people, who are not suited to driving a vehicle on public roads, are getting into cars and driving on public roads.If you feel better about yourself then great, but given the other variables at play that you have totally ignored, such as which and how many wheels are driven, manual or automatic and which gear is used, normal or winter tyres and how much tread is left, marks you out as a bit of a driving snob. The type of person who is a member of the institute of advanced motorists, who probably has a mini shovel in their boot and some Kendal mint cake in their glovebox.
Why do you try to defend poor driving? Are you a poor driver yourself, who believes that anyone who wants to drive safely and properly is a driving snob? If so, `your' driving standards must be very very low.
Please stop using superfluous apostrophes.
thetapeworm said:
Indeed, I sold my Saab a while ago but had a set of steels with good winter tyres on as it spent some of its previous life in Poland where this was mandatory, they were like witchcraft in bad conditions and not noticeably awful when it was dry.
The MR2 that replaced that car isn't really something I would use in poor conditions to I haven't felt the need to get a winter setup for it but I'd certainly considering it again for something more conventional, the problem is the weather is all over the place these days so you probably just want a good all-weather setup and accept the compromises.
I'm one of those that likes to go out and explore the behaviour and limits of a car in bad weather and consider myself a "driver" in the scope of this topic but at the end of the day physics generally wins and no matter how competent you are yourself it only takes one other driver stopping you keeping momentum up or just crashing into you to take the fun out of things.
I had full winters for my BMW M2 as PS4s are crap in anything below 6-8C. The MR2 that replaced that car isn't really something I would use in poor conditions to I haven't felt the need to get a winter setup for it but I'd certainly considering it again for something more conventional, the problem is the weather is all over the place these days so you probably just want a good all-weather setup and accept the compromises.
I'm one of those that likes to go out and explore the behaviour and limits of a car in bad weather and consider myself a "driver" in the scope of this topic but at the end of the day physics generally wins and no matter how competent you are yourself it only takes one other driver stopping you keeping momentum up or just crashing into you to take the fun out of things.
I was driving through the Glens of Antrim when 4x4 SUVs were getting stuck.
My Tesla has AWD and Michelin Cross Climate 2s and apart from clearance it’s been unstoppable. Braking distance is noticeably longer than full winters however.
I don’t worry about anything I just drive.
GeniusOfLove said:
Agreed. Any muppet can drive a normal car on winter tyres in the snow with only slight adaptations to driving style. Nobody can get a normal car to drive up the hills near me on summer tyres. Nobody.
While i agree on the importance of tyres there aren't many places i couldn't get a Corsa B on steel rims no matter the tyres, as long as they had a decent amount of tread. If you can get a standard Jimny or Range Rover there, i can get a Corsa B there 
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