Shrinking of cars
Discussion
An idle thought this morning. Cars, as we know, are getting larger and heavier. Larger predominantly in width (although also in length). I saw the other day that the Hyundai Ioniq 5, a family hatchback, is about 4.7m long!
I'll take the example of the BMW 5 series, the defining vehicle of the executive car category, as a yardstick. The last couple of generations particularly are really quite wide. My old E39 was "right" in its dimensions, not too large, but not tiny. My E34 today looks like a tiny car from behind. It's long (although by modern standards not really) at 4.72m long, and about 1.75m wide.
I appreciate a lot of it is crash technology, and protection of occupants, but with modern R&D and construction techniques, could sizes be brought back down? I.e. could the next 5 series be theoretically narrower whilst still giving adequate interior space and crash protection? Less room is required in cabins due to screens and the absence of mechanical hand brakes. There's also protection of pedestrians from collisions, so bonnet lines have come up. With electrification, surely the bonnet line can go back down?
The other facet is customer wants - do consumers want larger cars, or is it the manufacturers telling us we want larger cars? If BMW suddenly announced that the next 5 series was to be 4.8m long and about 1.8m wide (and also a bit lower) would people want it?
I write this as someone who is interested in cars, but in reality has no idea of the way they are designed - so I might be talking bobbins
I'll take the example of the BMW 5 series, the defining vehicle of the executive car category, as a yardstick. The last couple of generations particularly are really quite wide. My old E39 was "right" in its dimensions, not too large, but not tiny. My E34 today looks like a tiny car from behind. It's long (although by modern standards not really) at 4.72m long, and about 1.75m wide.
I appreciate a lot of it is crash technology, and protection of occupants, but with modern R&D and construction techniques, could sizes be brought back down? I.e. could the next 5 series be theoretically narrower whilst still giving adequate interior space and crash protection? Less room is required in cabins due to screens and the absence of mechanical hand brakes. There's also protection of pedestrians from collisions, so bonnet lines have come up. With electrification, surely the bonnet line can go back down?
The other facet is customer wants - do consumers want larger cars, or is it the manufacturers telling us we want larger cars? If BMW suddenly announced that the next 5 series was to be 4.8m long and about 1.8m wide (and also a bit lower) would people want it?
I write this as someone who is interested in cars, but in reality has no idea of the way they are designed - so I might be talking bobbins
For what it's worth the Ioniq 5 isn't really a family hatchback. It's a big SUV/crossover which has been bizarrely styled to look a bit like a hatchback. In general though, cars have got bigger for a number of reasons.
1) People have, on average, got bigger - both a bit taller (although that's arguably not significant) but crucially quite a lot wider.
2) People's expectations of comfort have risen.
3) Crash protection needs more and more space to continue improving.
3.5) As other cars get bigger and heavier, more and more crash protection is required, creating an arms race of size and weight.
4) People equate size with value (despite size actually being a very small factor in how much it costs to make a car). Hence the single easiest way to increase the profit margins on a car is to make it bigger.
5) Cars have increasingly become status symbols and bigger, more aggressive looking cars make better status symbols.
6) This one has perhaps a bit more controversial, but I think people have, by and large, become more selfish.
So I think it's primarily driven by customer demand which is evolving towards favouring bigger vehicles. It does always amuse me when people buy these huge tanks and then complain that parking spaces are too small, though.
1) People have, on average, got bigger - both a bit taller (although that's arguably not significant) but crucially quite a lot wider.
2) People's expectations of comfort have risen.
3) Crash protection needs more and more space to continue improving.
3.5) As other cars get bigger and heavier, more and more crash protection is required, creating an arms race of size and weight.
4) People equate size with value (despite size actually being a very small factor in how much it costs to make a car). Hence the single easiest way to increase the profit margins on a car is to make it bigger.
5) Cars have increasingly become status symbols and bigger, more aggressive looking cars make better status symbols.
6) This one has perhaps a bit more controversial, but I think people have, by and large, become more selfish.
So I think it's primarily driven by customer demand which is evolving towards favouring bigger vehicles. It does always amuse me when people buy these huge tanks and then complain that parking spaces are too small, though.
Edited by kambites on Thursday 20th March 08:28
There was an article on the BBC news app rcently about how a future of small, electric cars was envisaged but everyone has bought massive SUVs instead. Essentially, people seem to want big cars. I think the psychology of car buying needs to be better understood.
I see what you're saying though. As a crude example, BMW could scrap the current 7 Series, rebadge the 5 to the 7, rebadge the 3 to the 5 and rebadge the 1 to the 3 and apply the relevant levels of luxury and spec to each so it fulfilled the brief of the model.
I see what you're saying though. As a crude example, BMW could scrap the current 7 Series, rebadge the 5 to the 7, rebadge the 3 to the 5 and rebadge the 1 to the 3 and apply the relevant levels of luxury and spec to each so it fulfilled the brief of the model.
MitchT said:
There was an article on the BBC news app rcently about how a future of small, electric cars was envisaged but everyone has bought massive SUVs instead. Essentially, people seem to want big cars. I think the psychology of car buying needs to be better understood.
I see what you're saying though. As a crude example, BMW could scrap the current 7 Series, rebadge the 5 to the 7, rebadge the 3 to the 5 and rebadge the 1 to the 3 and apply the relevant levels of luxury and spec to each so it fulfilled the brief of the model.
But would people pay 5-series money for a 3-series sized car? I rather suspect most people would just go an E-class or A6. I see what you're saying though. As a crude example, BMW could scrap the current 7 Series, rebadge the 5 to the 7, rebadge the 3 to the 5 and rebadge the 1 to the 3 and apply the relevant levels of luxury and spec to each so it fulfilled the brief of the model.
MitchT said:
There was an article on the BBC news app rcently about how a future of small, electric cars was envisaged but everyone has bought massive SUVs instead. Essentially, people seem to want big cars. I think the psychology of car buying needs to be better understood.
I see what you're saying though. As a crude example, BMW could scrap the current 7 Series, rebadge the 5 to the 7, rebadge the 3 to the 5 and rebadge the 1 to the 3 and apply the relevant levels of luxury and spec to each so it fulfilled the brief of the model.
My opinion on the psycology of car buying is that life has got more expensive, more complex and we need a car to do more things now. Haul a dog, a few kids in huge car seats, pick up flat pack furniture from the local swedish furniture company and things like that. This means people need a single car that can do more jobs, hence why we're seeing more people with SUV's! I see what you're saying though. As a crude example, BMW could scrap the current 7 Series, rebadge the 5 to the 7, rebadge the 3 to the 5 and rebadge the 1 to the 3 and apply the relevant levels of luxury and spec to each so it fulfilled the brief of the model.
kambites said:
5) Cars have increasingly become status symbols and bigger, more aggressive looking cars make better status symbols.
I think the scope of people wanting this has increased massively too. When I was growing up in the '80s and '90s there was the stereotypical thrusting male executive hammering around everywhere in a BMW 325i but now, the majority of people seem to behave like this. Male, female, young, old... all barging around like they own the road in SUVs. What has caused behaviour, that was once the preserve of aggressive alpha males, to be adopted by a much wider cross section of society, many of whom you wouldn't historically have associated with that kind of behaviour?kambites said:
6) This one has perhaps a bit more controversial, but I think people have, by and large, become more selfish.
I wouldn't even say that's controversial. Society in general has become conspicuously selfish.Crudeoink said:
My opinion on the psycology of car buying is that life has got more expensive, more complex and we need a car to do more things now. Haul a dog, a few kids in huge car seats, pick up flat pack furniture from the local swedish furniture company and things like that. This means people need a single car that can do more jobs, hence why we're seeing more people with SUV's!
When I was a kid we had a small estate car which did a perfectly adequate job of hauling two adults and two children everywhere and trips with my dad to MFI for the flat pack furniture (there was no IKEA then). People did the same stuff then as they do now and managed perfectly well without an SUV.MitchT said:
When I was a kid we had a small estate car which did a perfectly adequate job of hauling two adults and two children everywhere and trips with my dad to MFI for the flat pack furniture (there was no IKEA then). People did the same stuff then as they do now and managed perfectly well without an SUV.
I bet the desktop PC and landline were also perfectly fine but I expect you don’t have just those now. Many buyers see a car as a status symbol. Be that the badge, performance, physical size, road presence, quadruple black, whatever. Whether they realise it or not, at a subconscious level this probably contributes to car buying choices. Might is right.
We recently added another baby to the collection. Child seats these days are so huge they encroach into the next seat in all but the biggest of cars. I have a Land cruiser (not a small car by any metric) and with the baby seat in the middle row, the centre seat is effectively useless for anything other than a short journey. We looked at a GLS as a replacement, but it was too small(!) I can't imagine trying to run multiple children around in a smaller car (which is why we are now switching to a V-class, effectively a small bus).
Not to mention the harsh reality - in an accident, if one family had to die, I'd rather it was not mine. Though not always the case, the perception is that survivability is higher in a larger vehicle. Driving a small hatch (or classic) among a sea of 2 ton+ SUVs can be an intimidating experience.
We recently added another baby to the collection. Child seats these days are so huge they encroach into the next seat in all but the biggest of cars. I have a Land cruiser (not a small car by any metric) and with the baby seat in the middle row, the centre seat is effectively useless for anything other than a short journey. We looked at a GLS as a replacement, but it was too small(!) I can't imagine trying to run multiple children around in a smaller car (which is why we are now switching to a V-class, effectively a small bus).
Not to mention the harsh reality - in an accident, if one family had to die, I'd rather it was not mine. Though not always the case, the perception is that survivability is higher in a larger vehicle. Driving a small hatch (or classic) among a sea of 2 ton+ SUVs can be an intimidating experience.
LimaDelta said:
Many buyers see a car as a status symbol. Be that the badge, performance, physical size, road presence, quadruple black, whatever. Whether they realise it or not, at a subconscious level this probably contributes to car buying choices. Might is right.
We recently added another baby to the collection. Child seats these days are so huge they encroach into the next seat in all but the biggest of cars. I have a Land cruiser (not a small car by any metric) and with the baby seat in the middle row, the centre seat is effectively useless for anything other than a short journey. We looked at a GLS as a replacement, but it was too small(!) I can't imagine trying to run multiple children around in a smaller car (which is why we are now switching to a V-class, effectively a small bus).
Not to mention the harsh reality - in an accident, if one family had to die, I'd rather it was not mine. Though not always the case, the perception is that survivability is higher in a larger vehicle. Driving a small hatch (or classic) among a sea of 2 ton+ SUVs can be an intimidating experience.
My parents had three of us between 0 & 5 in a Cavalier. After that my mum had three admittedly older children in a Metro.We recently added another baby to the collection. Child seats these days are so huge they encroach into the next seat in all but the biggest of cars. I have a Land cruiser (not a small car by any metric) and with the baby seat in the middle row, the centre seat is effectively useless for anything other than a short journey. We looked at a GLS as a replacement, but it was too small(!) I can't imagine trying to run multiple children around in a smaller car (which is why we are now switching to a V-class, effectively a small bus).
Not to mention the harsh reality - in an accident, if one family had to die, I'd rather it was not mine. Though not always the case, the perception is that survivability is higher in a larger vehicle. Driving a small hatch (or classic) among a sea of 2 ton+ SUVs can be an intimidating experience.
I put a child seat in my 1 series for my daughter and the passenger had to go the whole way forward. My wife could barely get in the front seat.
After putting the pram in the boot we had to put the seats down to get anything else in there!
Now we have two within a year of each other, something like the Tiguan we have is a must have. The child seats quite simply do not fit in small modern cars.
MitchT said:
Crudeoink said:
My opinion on the psycology of car buying is that life has got more expensive, more complex and we need a car to do more things now. Haul a dog, a few kids in huge car seats, pick up flat pack furniture from the local swedish furniture company and things like that. This means people need a single car that can do more jobs, hence why we're seeing more people with SUV's!
When I was a kid we had a small estate car which did a perfectly adequate job of hauling two adults and two children everywhere and trips with my dad to MFI for the flat pack furniture (there was no IKEA then). People did the same stuff then as they do now and managed perfectly well without an SUV.I agree with the poster above in that if you can only have one family car then it must do everything to a decent degree so large boot, 5 seats, able to take a car seat and other kids that don't need them, can handle a holiday in comfort and do the IKEA run without complaint and take abuse in it's stride
A modern 5 series estate or SUV equivalent are simply superb family transport and all the car you could ever need without too many compromises.
Classic example of individuals making seemingly rational choices for themselves, but causing problems because everyone is making the same choices ie for each person it can make sense to buy the biggest car they can, but then if everyone buys one the roads are clogged up, on street parking is difficult, you can’t park easily in parking spaces because the cars either side of you take up all their spaces, etc.
Legislation like they have in Japan would make it better but we would reject such government interference here.
Legislation like they have in Japan would make it better but we would reject such government interference here.
Every other car I see on the road is an SUV, usually driven in an aggressive and bullying way. What makes me laugh is the amount of people who say they bought them due to the higher up seating position as it feels "safer". Nothing to do with being sat in 2 tonne of metal then?
But to be honest with the state of the roads and the speed limits everywhere I get it and will no doubt get one myself as my next car.
But to be honest with the state of the roads and the speed limits everywhere I get it and will no doubt get one myself as my next car.
Fashion plays a big part. America started the SUV trend by essentially bypassing emissions and safety targets because anything over a given size is a 'light truck', rather than a passenger car.
People do seem to like the high up bigness (feeling safe) of an SUV.
And so the arms race begins.
I do think we should legislate a maximum size for privately owned passenger vehicles, although I have no idea how we get to that point and people will undoubtedly be along to tell me I'm wrong because vans and trucks exist. Those people are missing the point.
People do seem to like the high up bigness (feeling safe) of an SUV.
And so the arms race begins.
I do think we should legislate a maximum size for privately owned passenger vehicles, although I have no idea how we get to that point and people will undoubtedly be along to tell me I'm wrong because vans and trucks exist. Those people are missing the point.
Years ago people would buy Hot Hatches, Coupes and Convertibles. I have owned all of these types of car at some point and all of them were great fun.
But now driving is a chore, I live in Greater London and the roads are congested, full of pot holes and where I live it is 20 MPH limit everywhere.
I currently drive a manual two door coupe with reasonably firm suspension and to be honest it is an absolute pain. The thought of having something that isn't so low, has nice soft suspension and big sidewall tyres so I don't have to continually scan the road for potholes is very appealing.
I want an automatic as well, something I can just put into drive and waft along.
I am only 51 but when I look at sportscars I just think I couldn't be bothered.
But now driving is a chore, I live in Greater London and the roads are congested, full of pot holes and where I live it is 20 MPH limit everywhere.
I currently drive a manual two door coupe with reasonably firm suspension and to be honest it is an absolute pain. The thought of having something that isn't so low, has nice soft suspension and big sidewall tyres so I don't have to continually scan the road for potholes is very appealing.
I want an automatic as well, something I can just put into drive and waft along.
I am only 51 but when I look at sportscars I just think I couldn't be bothered.
ThingsBehindTheSun said:
Years ago people would buy Hot Hatches, Coupes and Convertibles. I have owned all of these types of car at some point and all of them were great fun.
But now driving is a chore, I live in Greater London and the roads are congested, full of pot holes and where I live it is 20 MPH limit everywhere.
I currently drive a manual two door coupe with reasonably firm suspension and to be honest it is an absolute pain. The thought of having something that isn't so low, has nice soft suspension and big sidewall tyres so I don't have to continually scan the road for potholes is very appealing.
I want an automatic as well, something I can just put into drive and waft along.
I am only 51 but when I look at sportscars I just think I couldn't be bothered.
That's entirely understandable and reasonable, but none of those requirements actually necessitate the car having a big footprint, and indeed that soft of driving would generally benefit from having a car with a small footprint (especially width). But now driving is a chore, I live in Greater London and the roads are congested, full of pot holes and where I live it is 20 MPH limit everywhere.
I currently drive a manual two door coupe with reasonably firm suspension and to be honest it is an absolute pain. The thought of having something that isn't so low, has nice soft suspension and big sidewall tyres so I don't have to continually scan the road for potholes is very appealing.
I want an automatic as well, something I can just put into drive and waft along.
I am only 51 but when I look at sportscars I just think I couldn't be bothered.
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