Is an engine intrinsic to the character of a "special" car?

[Starsky80]

I was thinking about this the other day, as a work colleague was telling me about his friend who was transplanting a BMW M57 diesel engine (the 3 litre straight six diesel) and the ZF 8-speed auto into a classic Defender.  Now objectively this makes it a better car (faster, more efficient, more usable etc) and this is essentially what Ineos did to make the Grenadier but does it retain the character/feel of a classic Defender?  I would argue no.  If I were getting a classic Defender, I would probably seek out a Td5 as I thought it was the best engine they put in it from factory and maybe get a tune on it but retain the manual transmission, as I think for better or worse, that maintains the character of the Defender.

This is even more evident with really high-end cars in 2026.  Perhaps not a Rolls Royce or to a lesser extent a Bentley, as the objective is luxury or refinement but it seems that buyers aren't really interested in an electric motor or a downsized hybrid powertrain in their Ferrari/Lamborghini/Aston Martin as they want the big shouty V8/V10/V12 engine in their supercar, even if the EV/hybrid powertrain does the numbers.  Look at the new C63, the 4 cylinder hybrid is quicker than the old V8 but no-one wants one.  The Audi RS3 only has any appeal to me too because of the 5-pot turbo motor.

Not to say that EVs can't have their own unique character.  I haven't driven them but I'm sure that a BMW i3 or a Fiat Grande Panda or a Renault Twingo/5 E-Tech have their own unique character, in spite of being electric.  I don't know if anyone has ever done it but I've always thought that a classic Citroen DS with an electric powertrain would be a lovely thing, as the character of that car was never about the engine and of course the small capacity petrol/diesel engines in the vast majority of modern cars don't have a lot of character and are eminently replaceable.

But how about the following "classics" for example?  You could of course replace the factory powertrains with something (ICE or otherwise) objectively much better but would you lose the character of the car in the process ie a trait that makes it the car that everyone loves.

A-series in a classic Mini
Flat 4 turbo in a fast Impreza
Rotary in a Mazda RX7/RX8
Air-cooled flat 4 in a classic Beetle/Type 2
V8 in a Mustang
Flat 6 in a Porsche 911
V12 in a GT Ferrari/"ultimate"Lamborghini
Straight 6 in a Jaguar E-Type

So is the engine/powertrain an intrinsic part of the character of these cars or just a means of propulsion and they can still retain their character/appeal without them?

[Doesitdrive]

They can, done quite a few, not only made them faster and more usable, but not going for mental power and a similar engine, sometimes you really wouldn't know.

Best example off the top of my head, Standard Fuel injected 2.0 Zetec in a MK1 Capri.

Sounded the same as the 4 pot removed , incredibly reliable and fuel efficient compared, utilising the PAS pump was a doddle and made it much more pleasant to drive.
Nobody had a clue unless I opened the bonnet, riding in the car or outside it.

[Hoofy]

I think it's down to the delivery, the feel and the sound. Even my dull Golf feels instantly more interesting when the 1.4 inline 4 engine kicks in compared to running under pure EV (which I do 95% of the time) and that's before I've left a 20 zone.

[Leon R]

I always see it as 'does the engine suit the character/image of the car'.

It's one of the reasons I have never really liked the early Zonda's.

A two door mid engine carbon fiber super car with a V12 engine that is out of ideas at 5,200 RPM doesn't gel for me.

[andy43]

Yes, the engine IS the character.
You can fiddle around the edges and give an EV a clever chassis or special noises but it's not the same as the character a decent sounding engine or snickety involving gearbox gives you.

[GeniusOfLove]

Yes I think the engine is really intrinsic and it goes way beyond the paper figures; a turbo 2 litre four making 280bhp feels very different to a 3 litre six making 280bhp which in turn feels very different to a 4 litre V8 making 280bhp or back in ye olden days a 5.3 litre V12 making 280bhp.

A 90s rally rep needs that laggy boosty raw feel of a turbo four, it'd be a totally different car if it had a 4 litre V8 smoothly making the same headline power and torque, and an XJS convertible is magic with that six smoothly turning out 280bhp but would be a dreadful car with a farting lag monster turbo four.

Above all a mini wouldn't be a mini without that A series with the gearbox in the sump making all the happy noises that they always make

Modern engines are all so uniformly dull and crap I'd just as soon have an EV.

[mwstewart]

Of course it is.

[Starsky80]

mwstewart said:

Of course it is.

So they're wasting their time with the electric BMW M3 and electric Ferraris (or would people still want the Ferrari if it was actually beautiful)?  I think the traditional differentiator with something like a Ferrari/Lamborghini/Aston Martin was the "special" engine, which you were never going to get in something like a Ford Mondeo, so that's what made them worth the premium that they were.  When you have an insanely fast electric MG for example (that MG4 XPower thing), then there's less of a differentiator between that and a slightly more powerful electric motor in a Ferrari.

I wonder if something like an electric MGB/MX5 providing it was light could be quite fun though, as the ICE engines were always a bit unexceptional in those cars and not the key to enjoying them. 

In terms of ICE transplants, those MST Escorts don't seem to suffer for having a modern Mazda engine in them.  The VW Type 2 I struggle with a bit more.  Such a great design in terms of packaging and actually handle quite well and are surprisingly enjoyable to drive and certainly the air-cooled 4 cylinder gives them a distinct personality.  The last of the line were fitted with a water-cooled 1.4 Polo engine, which isn't going to make it a ball of fire but probably a bit more usable but that engine has no character.  I don't think that a Type 2 needs to be/should be fast but a modern TDI or maybe a modern NA Subaru flat 4 would turn it from something that can be a little frustrating to use in modern traffic due to the lack of power to something quite usable and enjoyable to use on a regular basis but does losing that distinctive soundtrack destroy the character of the vehicle?  

[vikingaero]

Watching a podcast where Carl Hartley was saying that customers are really really going for manual cars, which obviously means ICE.

[NDA]

Ferrari are known for V12's, same with Aston and Lamborghini... Porsche for the flat 6. It's the brand heritage and why many people would buy them - I've owned a few V12s and the engine was a huge part of the reason. I wouldn't want an electric Aston or Ferrari, it's not really what they do.

Tesla are known for EVs and the software that goes with them. There's nothing special about a battery - people driving an EV never think about what battery is underneath them, how many amps or volts they might have... unlike when driving a V12 where the engineering is so much more evident - and enjoyable.

[SturdyHSV]

Yes, would an Impreza be the same car without a burbling turbo flat 4?

As an example of how the engine has such a strong influence on the character of a car... I have a 6.6 litre LS engined Monaro, and I have a Subaru BRZ.

I have also driven a GT86 with an LS engine in it (you'll have seen it on stage at the PH annual )

It felt far closer to the Monaro in 'personality' than to the BRZ. The engine totally dominated the car in the same way it does in the Monaro, it immediately felt like a muscle car, despite still actually being a little Japanese coupe and probably 400kg lighter with a far better chassis.

[WH16]

I'm not so sure.

Some of the cars most highly regarded as 'drivers cars' have fairly mundane powerplants. The MX-5, Lotus Elige family, many Caterhams for example.

[Clad-Hach]

The engine is very important, its characteristic to match the type of car, number of cylinders and lets not forget rotary, be it N/A supercharged or turbo.

And in my opinion it should be the dominating factor in sports and performance cars.

Two examples of how the wrong engine ruined cars...

The Porsche flat-4 introduced in the 718 Cayman and Boxster, it was an awful thing compared to the pervious flat-6, yes it was faster but it was just the wrong engine for the car, it just didn't suit it.

Toyota GT86 / Subaru BRZ flat-4, it was a slug of an engine, it had a massive flat spot in the rev range which spoiled an otherwise cracking car, I remember having a test drive and thinking there was something wrong with it.

[Starsky80]

Clad-Hach said:

The engine is very important, its characteristic to match the type of car, number of cylinders and lets not forget rotary, be it N/A supercharged or turbo.

And in my opinion it should be the dominating factor in sports and performance cars.

Two examples of how the wrong engine ruined cars...

The Porsche flat-4 introduced in the 718 Cayman and Boxster, it was an awful thing compared to the pervious flat-6, yes it was faster but it was just the wrong engine for the car, it just didn't suit it.

Toyota GT86 / Subaru BRZ flat-4, it was a slug of an engine, it had a massive flat spot in the rev range which spoiled an otherwise cracking car, I remember having a test drive and thinking there was something wrong with it.

Good examples. The Rotary is an interesting one. The rotary engine in the RX8 was it's USP but also its downfall (unreliable, high oil/fuel consumption. starting issues etc). Around about the same time, Mazda were putting a 260bhp 2.3 turbo in their MPS cars. Would that have been a better fir for the RX8?

I agree that the MX5 engines weren't that special but didn't go as far as to ruin the car like in the two cars that you mention. However, a K-Series in an Elise/Caterham is quite a sweet little engine to rev out and I think fits with the ethos of the cars, so quite a special little engine for what it is. The later Toyota-engined Elises weren't quite as endearing but probably more reliable and didn't go so far as to spoil the cars.

[mwstewart]

Starsky80 said:

So they're wasting their time with the electric BMW M3 and electric Ferraris (or would people still want the Ferrari if it was actually beautiful)?  I think the traditional differentiator with something like a Ferrari/Lamborghini/Aston Martin was the "special" engine, which you were never going to get in something like a Ford Mondeo, so that's what made them worth the premium that they were.  When you have an insanely fast electric MG for example (that MG4 XPower thing), then there's less of a differentiator between that and a slightly more powerful electric motor in a Ferrari.

They have no choice. An EV will never provide the emotion that a loud, vibrating, sonorous engine can; we've known that from the start but the hands of manufacturers are tied.

The values of anything with a stand-out engine have gone stratospheric in recent times. We have low mileage, unique spec 430 Scuderias changing hands in the US for over 1 million dollars. The same cars were $300k not so long ago. With Lamborgini the same applies to Murciélago and Miura, plus the accessible (within reason) models with great engines.

Ferrari have been very clever as usual with the Luce because they know that the group of buyers who genuinely valued the mechanical characteristics which traditionally made a typical Ferrari will not be as attracted to EVs, so they've experimented in making an ultra high value niche EV to head off future issues with ICE and capitalise on a trinkets and handbags segment that will likely fill in any deficits as the more accessible (within reason) models in the lineup become less interesting to keen drivers.

[Alex_225]

On the whole I'd say it's a huge part of the character of a vehicle but it's not by definition the only thing. You could still have a crap car with an amazing engine but you can still have a great car without it.

For example, I had an S Class with a 3.0 V6 diesel. It went really well and was a great car but the engine didn't make the car good, it was a good engine in a very good car but chuck a V8 or V12 in there and it would have been a special car.

I have a 2008 BMW 650, which as a car is great, especially with the roof down. Combine it with the feel and sound of a large V8 and it becomes that bit more special. Despite that fact that the 630d is probably as quick and obviously more economical.

This is where I compare EVs with diesels. There are many great diesel cars out there, many great diesel engines and some have been genuinely quick cars too, but the engines never made them special.

[Panamax]

Is the attraction of heritage railways,
a) steam locomotives?
b) diesel locomotives? or
c) electric locomotives?

There ya go.

[otolith]

Starsky80 said:

Around about the same time, Mazda were putting a 260bhp 2.3 turbo in their MPS cars. Would that have been a better fir for the RX8?

Literally, no. All the good stuff the RX-8 did was down to having a tiny little engine stuffed in low down and far back.

You can cram in something bulkier aftermarket, but for Mazda as an OEM to produce the same car with a straight four - paying full attention to cooling, crash performance, pedestrian impact, etc - would have have resulted in very different styling, weight distribution, packaging.

[mwstewart]

Panamax said:

Is the attraction of heritage railways,
a) steam locomotives?
b) diesel locomotives? or
c) electric locomotives?

There ya go.

Diesel-electric

[vikingaero]

otolith said:

Starsky80 said:

Around about the same time, Mazda were putting a 260bhp 2.3 turbo in their MPS cars. Would that have been a better fir for the RX8?

Literally, no. All the good stuff the RX-8 did was down to having a tiny little engine stuffed in low down and far back.

You can cram in something bulkier aftermarket, but for Mazda as an OEM to produce the same car with a straight four - paying full attention to cooling, crash performance, pedestrian impact, etc - would have have resulted in very different styling, weight distribution, packaging.

Whilst I love the concept and engineering of the Rotary, many many more RX8's would have survived if they offered a turbo 4 or V6 variant.