RE: BMW, Toyota kick off renewable fuel pilot scheme
RE: BMW, Toyota kick off renewable fuel pilot scheme
Yesterday

BMW, Toyota kick off renewable fuel pilot scheme

Theoretically, there is a way forward for petrol - now we just need some real-world proof it works at scale


You might think that 100 per cent renewable gasoline is the classic great white hope; hypothetically possible, but not really likely or practicable or profitable at scale. Well, BMW, Toyota, Bosch and Repsol beg to differ. They’ve just launched a six-month initiative in Spain to provide real-world evidence that such fuel - specifically Repsol’s Nexa 95 petrol - is sufficiently available via current infrastructure to support a fleet of unmodified vehicles. 

Repsol’s what now? Nexa 95 was a new one on us, too, but apparently the Spanish petroleum giant has been studying the problem for the last 20 years and has come up with a petrol of ‘100 per cent renewable origin’ which is already available in 1,600 service stations. It is not, clearly, a more newfangled (and difficult to produce) synthetic petrol, but rather a product of organic waste, including things like biomass and used cooking oil. 

This does not make the resulting fuel CO2 neutral, of course, but the upside (as we’ve been told previously with renewable sources) is that because the CO2 released in their use is equal to the CO2 originally absorbed by the organic matter when alive, Repsol claims a 70 per cent reduction in emissions compared with conventional gasoline. Moreover - and this really is the trick - it can manufacture Nexa 95 at ‘an industrial scale’, and has been doing so since it announced the technological breakthrough last year. 

As you can imagine, Repsol would very much like the role of renewable fuels to be recognised at a regulatory level (unsurprisingly, it mentions accelerating their widespread use via ‘a favourable tax framework’) and especially with how it might pertain to the future of combustion engines. It is this latter aspect that has doubtless helped it receive the support of Toyota and BMW, two global carmakers very much at the forefront of the petrol-ain’t-going-nowhere movement, and well used to collaborating. 

Accordingly, the pilot scheme is less about ‘can’ Nexa 95 work at scale (you pump it the same as any other E10 grade petrol, and it works in any modern engine, after all) but ‘how’ it performs in the real world. So BMW and Toyota supply the 20-vehicle fleet, Repsol supplies the fuel and Bosch supplies a digital fuel tracking system to certify usage for the duration of the six-month scheme. This is important because ultimately the participants want to ‘generate robust data and insights that will support ongoing European policy discussions’. In other words, it’s a lobbying tool. 

“We believe renewable fuels can play a key role alongside electrification in reducing CO? emissions. As the transition progresses, it is becoming clear that there is a growing risk that 100% zero-emission vehicles by 2035 may not be fully achieved,” said a Toyota spokesperson. “In such a scenario, renewable fuels can help bridge the gap to deliver carbon neutrality, especially when combined with hybrid and plug-in hybrid technologies. This pilot aims to demonstrate how renewable fuels can make a meaningful and sustainable contribution to decarbonisation today, for both new and existing vehicles.” Fingers crossed, eh?


Author
Discussion

dukeboy749r

Original Poster:

3,532 posts

237 months

Yesterday (11:16)
quotequote all
Without knowing the price per litre, this (surely) has to be a positive development?

The UK (and European) Governments need to have a sliding methodology towards phasing our fossil fuels entirely. This seems, on the face of it, a means to do just that, that will (should) also gain support from petrolheads.

JJJ.

5,229 posts

42 months

Yesterday (11:34)
quotequote all
Definitely positive.

MountainsofSussex

408 posts

213 months

Yesterday (11:37)
quotequote all
This may work for keeping historic and exotic vehicles on the road in future. But it'll never ever match up with the incredibly low costs of fossil fuel for mass motoring. Unless it's heavily subsidised, in which case we're paying lots for it anyway, albeit indirectly. Broadly speaking, for the vast majority of people who just want to get from A to B, EVs are going to do the job and from about now, at lower cost than fossil fuel powered cars. Aviation and shipping (and some industrial processes) are much much harder to electrify, so that's where the demand for lower emission hydrocarbons will be greatest. So yeah, you might well be able to fill up your Porsche with something like this in 20 years, but it's very unlikely anyone with a Golf will be

BVB

1,206 posts

180 months

Yesterday (12:05)
quotequote all

Good to see a consumer trial is already occurring.
F1 and MotoGP have been on fully renewable drop-in fuel for a year or two.

SDK

3,292 posts

280 months

Yesterday (12:10)
quotequote all
Good to see progress in this area smile

The reduction in CO2 during production is the main win, but tailpipe pollution remains the same


"it can manufacture Nexa 95 at an industrial scale "

Enough for the US, which demands 380 million gallons of vehicle fuel per day, or the UK with 30 million gallons per day?


M11rph

1,154 posts

48 months

Yesterday (12:18)
quotequote all
dukeboy749r said:
Without knowing the price per litre, this (surely) has to be a positive development?

The UK (and European) Governments need to have a sliding methodology towards phasing our fossil fuels entirely. This seems, on the face of it, a means to do just that, that will (should) also gain support from petrolheads.
+9 cents on top of Regular 95 Octane Unleaded
-4 cents vs Premium 98 Octane Super


350Matt

3,885 posts

306 months

Yesterday (12:46)
quotequote all
this great news surely ?

J4CKO

46,581 posts

227 months

Yesterday (13:06)
quotequote all
So you have to refine it, lug it about, it still has the same emissions and is still way less efficient than EVs.

Net zero and whatever will get in the way, EVs will just keep improving, then there is the combustion ban looming.

Its not happening at scale really is it ?




Dr G

15,913 posts

269 months

Yesterday (13:22)
quotequote all
SDK said:
Enough for the US, which demands 380 million gallons of vehicle fuel per day, or the UK with 30 million gallons per day?
New facility opening this year will which will allow them to produce in excess of 250,000,000 litres annually (70,000,000 gallons). Not clear in the article if that's just the new plant, or the new total.

Source: https://www.energy-pedia.com/news/spain/repsol-pio...

I'm not sure if 'industrial scale' has a formal definition but I'd say that sounds fair here. Takes more than one refinery do make us enough dinosaur juice so only reasonable to assume we'd need the same here. If every car was suddenly electric tomorrow we wouldn't have enough juice for that either.

So, are they already making enough petrol for the USA? No. For the UK? A little closer. Could it be made in these volumes? I guess that depends on the political will, money, and availability of raw materials. Technically it sounds like they can.

PH - perhaps you could reach out for comment on volumes and scalability? I can see that interesting a few people.

seawise

2,272 posts

233 months

Yesterday (13:36)
quotequote all
If Repsol can make a business case for producing it in scale then one hopes that Shell, BP, EXXON, etc will follow. That is the good news potentially.

SpeckledJim

33,346 posts

280 months

Yesterday (13:43)
quotequote all
How much electricity is required to make a litre of this stuff?

And if you just didn't bother, and put the electricity straight into a car instead, how far would it take you?


Clad-Hach

566 posts

15 months

Yesterday (13:47)
quotequote all
Good news yes...what is the point of it, us with our stupid virtue signaling agenda's "lets save the planet at all cost even though its destroying our economy" don't live in a world were fuel is dirt cheap or opposite in fuel poverty, why would they want to buy our "green fuel" when they don't need to.

Fuel is expensive in the west because the greedy need more money.

GT9

8,841 posts

199 months

Yesterday (14:36)
quotequote all
Clad-Hach said:
Good news yes...what is the point of it, us with our stupid virtue signaling agenda's "lets save the planet at all cost even though its destroying our economy" don't live in a world were fuel is dirt cheap or opposite in fuel poverty, why would they want to buy our "green fuel" when they don't need to.

Fuel is expensive in the west because the greedy need more money.
Fuel is expensive because we have become slaves to the fact that burning stuff for our energy needs is grossly inefficient.
The useful work we get from 5 litres of refined fuel equates to no more than one litre of it.
The other 4 litres goes completely to waste, predominantly as heat.
That waste heat also releases untold amounts of long-sequestered CO2.
5 litres of fuel also cost 5 times as much as 1 litre.
For as long we continue to worship at the altar of energy inefficiency, we will never overcome the fact that ignoring such a fundamental first principle of science is severely harmful to long term prosperity and the environment around us.
I fear however that we are collectively trapped in a Stockholm syndrome like mindset where we worship such wastefulness and create all sorts of illogical reasons to justify it.
The purveyors of synthetic fuels, and hydrogen for that matter, know this and that many cannot resist the spell.


CG2020UK

2,932 posts

67 months

Yesterday (14:59)
quotequote all
Honestly unless I was wanting to keep something special on the road I just don’t really see the point.

You’d struggle to find any car that is daily driven that wouldn’t be made worse by using an ICE.

Enough people have driven and own EVs now that we all know it’s the way forward and the next step.

J4CKO

46,581 posts

227 months

Yesterday (15:33)
quotequote all
Clad-Hach said:
Good news yes...what is the point of it, us with our stupid virtue signaling agenda's "lets save the planet at all cost even though its destroying our economy" don't live in a world were fuel is dirt cheap or opposite in fuel poverty, why would they want to buy our "green fuel" when they don't need to.

Fuel is expensive in the west because the greedy need more money.
Its not that simple is it, if you want a doctor when you are ill, if you want a Police service, Fire Service, defense, education etc, then the money has to come from somewhere, and that is mostly in taxation, and a fair chunk is from the taxes on fuel.

The actual fuel cost is a small part of it, bit for the retailer, et voila £1.60 plus a gallon.

Oil companies will always hoover up more cash, but its the government that take the lions share, to pay for stuff we all demand.

Gary C

15,026 posts

206 months

Yesterday (15:42)
quotequote all
SpeckledJim said:
Gary C said:
"This does not make the resulting fuel CO2 neutral, of course, but the upside (as we ve been told previously with renewable sources) is that because the CO2 released in their use is equal to the CO2 originally absorbed by the organic matter when alive"

Surely that's the very epitome of neutral ?
There's additional CO2 footprint in the manufacturing and transportation.
Yes, I realised that as I clicked frown so deleted it

it wasn't saying what I thought it was smile

ashenfie

2,919 posts

73 months

Yesterday (16:03)
quotequote all
GT9 said:
Clad-Hach said:
Good news yes...what is the point of it, us with our stupid virtue signaling agenda's "lets save the planet at all cost even though its destroying our economy" don't live in a world were fuel is dirt cheap or opposite in fuel poverty, why would they want to buy our "green fuel" when they don't need to.

Fuel is expensive in the west because the greedy need more money.
Fuel is expensive because we have become slaves to the fact that burning stuff for our energy needs is grossly inefficient.
The useful work we get from 5 litres of refined fuel equates to no more than one litre of it.
The other 4 litres goes completely to waste, predominantly as heat.
That waste heat also releases untold amounts of long-sequestered CO2.
5 litres of fuel also cost 5 times as much as 1 litre.
For as long we continue to worship at the altar of energy inefficiency, we will never overcome the fact that ignoring such a fundamental first principle of science is severely harmful to long term prosperity and the environment around us.
I fear however that we are collectively trapped in a Stockholm syndrome like mindset where we worship such wastefulness and create all sorts of illogical reasons to justify it.
The purveyors of synthetic fuels, and hydrogen for that matter, know this and that many cannot resist the spell.
If get oil from the north sea it's free just like wind it needs infrastructure and that is expensive. So regardless if a 100% of that free stuff or only 30% end up usable is fairly irrelevant. The issues come when you choose to purchase from a state that does not like you and build markets where they define the market value. We chose that latter and surprise surprise that market value is expensive enough you still want oil, but maximises their profit and our pain.

This is a substitute, but the manufacturing process relies on large amount of expensive energy and then still produces Co2. It makes Hydrogen look almost sensible.

I can't see this ever being cost effective unless the fuel duty element is reduced (unlikely). My guess is they will sell the idea to the EU, allowing cars to be produced. In the real world these car will use with standard Diesel as either the special nectar is too expensive or not available.

Justin-ow582

579 posts

132 months

Yesterday (16:30)
quotequote all
It's a trial, so let's see what conclusions can be drawn from the actual results.

I had to smirk at the carbon offset based on the CO2 produced by the original plants. Very inventive.

Edited by Justin-ow582 on Thursday 16th July 14:54

Clad-Hach

566 posts

15 months

Yesterday (16:36)
quotequote all
GT9 said:
Clad-Hach said:
Good news yes...what is the point of it, us with our stupid virtue signaling agenda's "lets save the planet at all cost even though its destroying our economy" don't live in a world were fuel is dirt cheap or opposite in fuel poverty, why would they want to buy our "green fuel" when they don't need to.

Fuel is expensive in the west because the greedy need more money.
Fuel is expensive because we have become slaves to the fact that burning stuff for our energy needs is grossly inefficient.
The useful work we get from 5 litres of refined fuel equates to no more than one litre of it.
The other 4 litres goes completely to waste, predominantly as heat.
That waste heat also releases untold amounts of long-sequestered CO2.
5 litres of fuel also cost 5 times as much as 1 litre.
For as long we continue to worship at the altar of energy inefficiency, we will never overcome the fact that ignoring such a fundamental first principle of science is severely harmful to long term prosperity and the environment around us.
I fear however that we are collectively trapped in a Stockholm syndrome like mindset where we worship such wastefulness and create all sorts of illogical reasons to justify it.
The purveyors of synthetic fuels, and hydrogen for that matter, know this and that many cannot resist the spell.
What..???

Clad-Hach

566 posts

15 months

Yesterday (16:37)
quotequote all
J4CKO said:
Clad-Hach said:
Good news yes...what is the point of it, us with our stupid virtue signaling agenda's "lets save the planet at all cost even though its destroying our economy" don't live in a world were fuel is dirt cheap or opposite in fuel poverty, why would they want to buy our "green fuel" when they don't need to.

Fuel is expensive in the west because the greedy need more money.
Its not that simple is it, if you want a doctor when you are ill, if you want a Police service, Fire Service, defense, education etc, then the money has to come from somewhere, and that is mostly in taxation, and a fair chunk is from the taxes on fuel.
Yes...taxed to the hilt, and all those services are working a treat aren't they.