Dad shouldn t be driving but Dr says he s good to go
Discussion
Background:
Nearly a year ago my dad (80 years old) suffered a stroke, bleed and clot at the same time.
Over the past year he has regained use of his limbs about 95%, bit of a loss of dexterity in his right hand but you would have to be looking to notice.
He can walk with a stick for about 50m before he gets too tired and has to sit. Physically I have no doubt he could drive.
Really where it has got him is his mental acuity and speech. His speech was getting better but about 2 months ago we noticed a decline in his speech. It’s near impossible to understand him 80% of the time and is an educated guess for the remaining 20%.
So the stroke team had asked for another stroke assessment to see if he has had another stroke.
So today we turned up. See the stroke dr, my dad’s having a good day and was probably 50/50 for being able to comprehend him.
Gets to the end and the Dr says, oh I see the DVLA have requested a driving assessment (he’s not driven in a year) we will do that now. So I was expecting some comprehensive testing.
What happens next was in the following order.
1) remember these 3 words
2) reading a couple of sentences
3) write a sentence
4) touching her finger and his nose with different arms.
5) a couple of other really simple things.
Now I am in no way a medical professional but there is no way he should be driving. This morning he took 2 cups out the sink and emptied the water on the worktop to start washing the pots in the work surface not the sink.
His speed of reaction is so slow. Simply put despite the dr 5 min assessment and subject to scan results, he can have his licence back.
This petrifies, me, my brother, my wife, his grand daughter, a couple of other friends and his stroke therapist. We all think there is no way he should be driving. It’s an accident in the making.
I have already started the following. Emailed the dr that asset him to put my concerns in writing (expressed at the hospital verbally as well), reported him to the dvla with my concerns, reported my concerns again to his GP, contacted his stroke rehabilitation team.
This isn’t a case of I think it’s a judgement call, the dr did a 5 min assessment when he was having a great day (1 in 100 so to speak) she is plain wrong, he isn’t capable of operating an oven, he gets confused, often cant operate the TV remote, gets confused and annoyed, we’re on the 3rd remote where they have gone for a fly against the wall.
So my question, other than intercepting the letter from the hospital post his scan and just saying sorry dad no you can’t drive, which I think is unethical, I’ve never lied to him before and I don’t want to start now, what else can I do / can be done?
This is a mistake, no doubt, heaven forgive he ends up hurting or worse still killing someone he couldn’t live with it and I couldn’t if I didn’t think I had done everything possible.
Also please don’t think I want to restrict my dads freedom, it would ease my life if I wasn’t having to travel 100s of miles a month to take him out shopping etc. if I thought he was safe I would welcome it.
Nearly a year ago my dad (80 years old) suffered a stroke, bleed and clot at the same time.
Over the past year he has regained use of his limbs about 95%, bit of a loss of dexterity in his right hand but you would have to be looking to notice.
He can walk with a stick for about 50m before he gets too tired and has to sit. Physically I have no doubt he could drive.
Really where it has got him is his mental acuity and speech. His speech was getting better but about 2 months ago we noticed a decline in his speech. It’s near impossible to understand him 80% of the time and is an educated guess for the remaining 20%.
So the stroke team had asked for another stroke assessment to see if he has had another stroke.
So today we turned up. See the stroke dr, my dad’s having a good day and was probably 50/50 for being able to comprehend him.
Gets to the end and the Dr says, oh I see the DVLA have requested a driving assessment (he’s not driven in a year) we will do that now. So I was expecting some comprehensive testing.
What happens next was in the following order.
1) remember these 3 words
2) reading a couple of sentences
3) write a sentence
4) touching her finger and his nose with different arms.
5) a couple of other really simple things.
Now I am in no way a medical professional but there is no way he should be driving. This morning he took 2 cups out the sink and emptied the water on the worktop to start washing the pots in the work surface not the sink.
His speed of reaction is so slow. Simply put despite the dr 5 min assessment and subject to scan results, he can have his licence back.
This petrifies, me, my brother, my wife, his grand daughter, a couple of other friends and his stroke therapist. We all think there is no way he should be driving. It’s an accident in the making.
I have already started the following. Emailed the dr that asset him to put my concerns in writing (expressed at the hospital verbally as well), reported him to the dvla with my concerns, reported my concerns again to his GP, contacted his stroke rehabilitation team.
This isn’t a case of I think it’s a judgement call, the dr did a 5 min assessment when he was having a great day (1 in 100 so to speak) she is plain wrong, he isn’t capable of operating an oven, he gets confused, often cant operate the TV remote, gets confused and annoyed, we’re on the 3rd remote where they have gone for a fly against the wall.
So my question, other than intercepting the letter from the hospital post his scan and just saying sorry dad no you can’t drive, which I think is unethical, I’ve never lied to him before and I don’t want to start now, what else can I do / can be done?
This is a mistake, no doubt, heaven forgive he ends up hurting or worse still killing someone he couldn’t live with it and I couldn’t if I didn’t think I had done everything possible.
Also please don’t think I want to restrict my dads freedom, it would ease my life if I wasn’t having to travel 100s of miles a month to take him out shopping etc. if I thought he was safe I would welcome it.
It's a tough subject to discuss with someone you love, and probably one I'll have to have at some point. But something it looks like you feel the need to. And it is a big thing, the feeling of losing independence. Believe there are some Advance Driving Instructor association places offering assessments for those 60+ (that includes me now - gulp) if that was maybe an option?He's fortunate to have someone that cares enough about him to even think this way MiL stopped during COVID and fortunately had no desire to restart afterwards, and truthfully probably shouldn't have for some time before then. My mum stopped post COVID too, and recognises she shouldn't. My Dad, yeah, that'll be the awkward one. But he's fine at moment.
Tuggy said:
It's a tough subject to discuss with someone you love, and probably one I'll have to have at some point. But something it looks like you feel the need to. And it is a big thing, the feeling of losing independence. Believe there are some Advance Driving Instructor association places offering assessments for those 60+ (that includes me now - gulp) if that was maybe an option?
He's fortunate to have someone that cares enough about him to even think this way
MiL stopped during COVID and fortunately had no desire to restart afterwards, and truthfully probably shouldn't have for some time before then. My mum stopped post COVID too, and recognises she shouldn't.
My Dad, yeah, that'll be the awkward one. But he's fine at moment.
Both my brother and I sat him down about 3 months ago when he broached the subject of driving again. We explained that his reactions weren’t fast enough, even a simple test where we would slowly throw a tennis ball without counting down and he couldn’t catch it. The ball was gone and on the floor before he was even thinking about catching it. We’re not talking fast ball pitches just a gentle underarm lob to him from about a meter away. Nowhere near reacting in time. He's fortunate to have someone that cares enough about him to even think this way
MiL stopped during COVID and fortunately had no desire to restart afterwards, and truthfully probably shouldn't have for some time before then. My mum stopped post COVID too, and recognises she shouldn't.
My Dad, yeah, that'll be the awkward one. But he's fine at moment.
There is a driving assessment centre that the stroke team (not stroke dr) have referred him into too about 3 months ago, when he started talking about driving again. Apparently it’s a Highway Code test, no way he would pass that he’s not read the Highway Code in 60 years.
A hazard perception test (again no way he would see the hazards. He doesn’t see the ones in his home at walking pace some times. Besides they shut the one at derby and Nottingham and only Leicester remains local and has a 9 month wait.
But apparently once this dr sends the form to the dvla (post scan results it’s just a case of applying for his licence back (NO NEED TO GO AND DO THE DRIVING ASSESSMENT).
I suppose I am just stunned at how easy and how low the standard was to pass it. I’m convinced if he drives again at worst he will have an accident that bends metal, worse case doesn’t bear thinking about.
I genuine can’t think of anything else to do or say. Baring just over ruling the dr and saying no dad. I will do it if I have to but I’m looking for other ways to prevent him where I’m not the bad guy I suppose.
Im a bit of a pushover when it comes to my dad. But I realise this can’t happen. It’s just not safe. The man can’t even cook his own dinner, slice cheese or open a bleech bottle. How can I allow him to be in charge of a 2 T car on a busy road at speed.
I suppose I’m just in shock the dr said yes.
FWIW I'm getting to a similar point with my dad, although not as bad. And it seems that there isn't much that can be done about it other than to hope for a small accident (i.e not a BIG accident) that will cause him to change his mind.
Writing to his doctor is the best thing, as the doctor has a responsibility to ensure that patients are safe. If you don't know who his doctor is then writing to your doctor is a start because (I think) given your dad's name and DOB they can look up who your dad's doctor is and pass the concerns on.
As far as I am aware there is no mandatory re-testing for people beyond a certain age, which seems like a hole in the system to me. I fully understand that different people age in different ways but the current system is not great.
Writing to his doctor is the best thing, as the doctor has a responsibility to ensure that patients are safe. If you don't know who his doctor is then writing to your doctor is a start because (I think) given your dad's name and DOB they can look up who your dad's doctor is and pass the concerns on.
As far as I am aware there is no mandatory re-testing for people beyond a certain age, which seems like a hole in the system to me. I fully understand that different people age in different ways but the current system is not great.
I would be inclined to write to both his GP and the stroke doctor to further raise your concerns again. Also write to the DVLA to advise them as well and make a statement to the effect that you don’t think he is capable.
Have a further chat with your Dad and worst case scenario you will just have to “hide” the keys.
Have a further chat with your Dad and worst case scenario you will just have to “hide” the keys.
Sorry to hear about your Father.
Slightly different scenario but I went through similar for my Mother although I knew damn well that she shouldn't be driving when I asked her to take me out for a drive.
Discussed it with her and said she should stop and sell the car.
She lives in a Town and it helped that she can take buses' or taxis wherever she needs to go.
Given your actions thus far I think a chat with your Father would be the best thing ( not easy but you are not lying or being at all duplicitous ) and see how that goes.
Slightly different scenario but I went through similar for my Mother although I knew damn well that she shouldn't be driving when I asked her to take me out for a drive.
Discussed it with her and said she should stop and sell the car.
She lives in a Town and it helped that she can take buses' or taxis wherever she needs to go.
Given your actions thus far I think a chat with your Father would be the best thing ( not easy but you are not lying or being at all duplicitous ) and see how that goes.
Been through this with own dad, now stepdad, a few close elderly neighbours, and I've even questioned whether to stop a random stranger at a garage when he picked up his car while me and the garage receptionist watched in almost disbelief at the state of him. All people mentioned mid to late 80s.
One 91. All picking up new battle scars on their cars almost on a weekly basis, not just scratches but huge dents. Sometimes hitting walls, fences, hedges.
Luckily not other cars or people - so far that is. It is just a matter of time though. A 91 year old neighbour hit a parked lorry and just drove off, barely realising.
I'm in a very rural area, public transport is practically non-existent or unusable. But the current rules are just mental at what people can get away with.
What to do - it is a very difficult conversation with close relatives who have fierce independence.
I've even thought of bribing the MOT station to fail their cars.
One 91. All picking up new battle scars on their cars almost on a weekly basis, not just scratches but huge dents. Sometimes hitting walls, fences, hedges.
Luckily not other cars or people - so far that is. It is just a matter of time though. A 91 year old neighbour hit a parked lorry and just drove off, barely realising.
I'm in a very rural area, public transport is practically non-existent or unusable. But the current rules are just mental at what people can get away with.
What to do - it is a very difficult conversation with close relatives who have fierce independence.
I've even thought of bribing the MOT station to fail their cars.
Very difficult situation. My Father is currently unfit to drive due to a TIA (Mini Stroke) but can't wait ro get back behind the wheel. He shouldn't be driving because his awareness of other drivers even before he had the stroke was appalling. He simply won't listen to us because he wants his independence.
My mother on the other hand stopped driving shortly after having a minor car park prang (her fault). She realised she wasn't safe anymore.
My mother on the other hand stopped driving shortly after having a minor car park prang (her fault). She realised she wasn't safe anymore.
98elise said:
Very difficult situation. My Father is currently unfit to drive due to a TIA (Mini Stroke) but can't wait ro get back behind the wheel. He shouldn't be driving because his awareness of other drivers even before he had the stroke was appalling. He simply won't listen to us because he wants his independence.
My mother on the other hand stopped driving shortly after having a minor car park prang (her fault). She realised she wasn't safe anymore.
Mine stopped when she could only drive uphill or on the flat and not downhill because it made her feel giddy. I do think GP records should be linked with DVLA to remove the need for self-declaring unfitness to drive. Although you just know they'd spend billions on the project and leak all the data to India or something.My mother on the other hand stopped driving shortly after having a minor car park prang (her fault). She realised she wasn't safe anymore.
The IAM can provide a Mature Driver Assessment. Costs about £70 and is an hour drive in the applicants car. Verbal and written report on driving ability.
I'm 80 next month and did one that was FOC as part of a
a trial testing consistency around the country. Only negative was 28 in a 20 limit.
I believe the Older Drivers Forum can supply the IAM Assessment FOC in some counties.
I'm 80 next month and did one that was FOC as part of a
a trial testing consistency around the country. Only negative was 28 in a 20 limit.
I believe the Older Drivers Forum can supply the IAM Assessment FOC in some counties.
I want to thank all that have responded so far.
Reference the keys and the car, they were removed to my brothers property when he first got home because he made noises about I don’t care nobody is telling me what I can and can’t do. So that was the end of that.
I have contacted his GP and the DVLA to express my concerns. They have put it on record. The GP has said as a stroke has caused his driving restrictions then the stroke specialist dr would have the biggest sway. If she says he is fit to drive then it’s not really up to her to over rule the stroke specialist. I sort of understand.
Now it’s just a case of wait for the scan and results 4-6 weeks.
Thanks for the IAM older assessment idea. I think if he does go down the route of getting his license back I might insist on him doing an hour with them and see what they say.
Ultimately if the IAM assessment or the assessment referral at Leicester say he is good enough to drive then who am o to say he isn’t. I will just have to accept it.
Reference the keys and the car, they were removed to my brothers property when he first got home because he made noises about I don’t care nobody is telling me what I can and can’t do. So that was the end of that.
I have contacted his GP and the DVLA to express my concerns. They have put it on record. The GP has said as a stroke has caused his driving restrictions then the stroke specialist dr would have the biggest sway. If she says he is fit to drive then it’s not really up to her to over rule the stroke specialist. I sort of understand.
Now it’s just a case of wait for the scan and results 4-6 weeks.
Thanks for the IAM older assessment idea. I think if he does go down the route of getting his license back I might insist on him doing an hour with them and see what they say.
Ultimately if the IAM assessment or the assessment referral at Leicester say he is good enough to drive then who am o to say he isn’t. I will just have to accept it.
When my dad's dementia started becoming really apparent we were a bit underhand and told him they had taken his license away because we had never got any feedback from doc and DVSA.
The "win" specifically with dementia was that he forgot about most things fairly quickly.
He wasn't especially pleased about being told he couldn't drive but wasn't really able to do anything about it either within a few days he had forgotten about it.
We had moved the car away to my house where he couldn't see it and he forgot about that too.
It all worked OK except for the DVSA contacting him directly a year later to confirm he was allowed to carry on driving (which by then was scary as most of his thought processes had disappeared)
The "win" specifically with dementia was that he forgot about most things fairly quickly.
He wasn't especially pleased about being told he couldn't drive but wasn't really able to do anything about it either within a few days he had forgotten about it.
We had moved the car away to my house where he couldn't see it and he forgot about that too.
It all worked OK except for the DVSA contacting him directly a year later to confirm he was allowed to carry on driving (which by then was scary as most of his thought processes had disappeared)
Memento Mori said:
Go directly to the DVLA and tell them.
They will put him forward for a specific assessment, which he will fail.
Don't feel bad, I'd do the same.
Many on here seem to have had first hand experience, myself included.They will put him forward for a specific assessment, which he will fail.
Don't feel bad, I'd do the same.
I reported a relative to the DVLA and no action was taken. I called the DVLA and they told me as a non medical person or emergency service or law enforcement, they would only note my concern. Whatever that means.
The driver managed to write their car off shortly afterwards and mercifully with no other people involved.
Just an addition though at that age and post a stroke will they be able to get insurance.
My mother gave up driving at 80 as the premium was 5 times the value of the car .
cliffords said:
Many on here seem to have had first hand experience, myself included.
I reported a relative to the DVLA and no action was taken. I called the DVLA and they told me as a non medical person or emergency service or law enforcement, they would only note my concern. Whatever that means.
The driver managed to write their car off shortly afterwards and mercifully with no other people involved.
Just an addition though at that age and post a stroke will they be able to get insurance.
My mother gave up driving at 80 as the premium was 5 times the value of the car .
Good point about the insurance - presumably he should have to declare his medical issues and the fact that he hasn’t been able to drive for a period of time due to this. I reported a relative to the DVLA and no action was taken. I called the DVLA and they told me as a non medical person or emergency service or law enforcement, they would only note my concern. Whatever that means.
The driver managed to write their car off shortly afterwards and mercifully with no other people involved.
Just an addition though at that age and post a stroke will they be able to get insurance.
My mother gave up driving at 80 as the premium was 5 times the value of the car .
FiL was about 84/85, he drove 250 mile up to see us on a hot day, dehydrated, passed out while talking to my wife. BP halk normal, ambulance called etc.
3 days later he said "that's it, I'm stopping driving" He'd been driving all his life, not had an accident although a few dangerous manouvres in the years building up to that due to the prolonged dying of his wife.
He went quite rapidly downhill after that which I put down to a mix of deteriorating health and not getting out/
OP I'd suggest the car has a fault and needs to go into the garage for work, the repairs may take a long time...
3 days later he said "that's it, I'm stopping driving" He'd been driving all his life, not had an accident although a few dangerous manouvres in the years building up to that due to the prolonged dying of his wife.
He went quite rapidly downhill after that which I put down to a mix of deteriorating health and not getting out/
OP I'd suggest the car has a fault and needs to go into the garage for work, the repairs may take a long time...
cliffords said:
Many on here seem to have had first hand experience, myself included.
I reported a relative to the DVLA and no action was taken. I called the DVLA and they told me as a non medical person or emergency service or law enforcement, they would only note my concern. Whatever that means.
The driver managed to write their car off shortly afterwards and mercifully with no other people involved.
Just an addition though at that age and post a stroke will they be able to get insurance.
My mother gave up driving at 80 as the premium was 5 times the value of the car .
Since his stroke I have had to enact the power of attorney financial to allow me to pay his bills etc. Came as quite a shock to discover he was sat on 6 figures cash sat in the bank. The premiums wouldn’t matter for the insurance. I reported a relative to the DVLA and no action was taken. I called the DVLA and they told me as a non medical person or emergency service or law enforcement, they would only note my concern. Whatever that means.
The driver managed to write their car off shortly afterwards and mercifully with no other people involved.
Just an addition though at that age and post a stroke will they be able to get insurance.
My mother gave up driving at 80 as the premium was 5 times the value of the car .
Now if he could get insurance that is another question. He has a host of other medical problems you would expect a 80 year old to have who hasn’t looked after himself. Heart condition, prostate issues so is now fully catheterised, kidney problems, COPD. Strangely pre stroke he smoked 40 a day, had done for 60 years. Quit cold turkey and hasn’t mentioned it since.
I think at this point I have done everything I can do. I suppose it is wait and see what the scan says. I just posted on here to make sure I hadn’t missed anything I should be doing. I know a lot on here have been through this process before.
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