Cars for sale with possibly a couple of red flags?
Discussion
I was looking at some cars for sale on Ebay and found a nice looking Riley. It's a good ad, with a good description, identifying a couple of issues with the car.
However, reading the whole thing raised a couple of potential red flags.
1. The first being, all cars sold must be trailered away - "Due to the very nature of older vehicles and their vulnerability to long-term storage, all our cars are sold as unroadworthy and should not be driven on the public highway until fixed and made roadworthy (whether showing a current MOT certificate or not).
You accept and understand that using this vehicle on the roads in GB would be unlawful in its current condition, and that it will not be used on the roads in GB until it has been put into a lawful condition.
For the reasons mentioned above, all vehicles bought must be trailered away."
2. The second red flag is that they correctly identify the distance selling regulations, as they are legally obliged to do. However, in the event of a return under the DSR, they retain a £500 non refundable deposit., plus " a reasonable figure for any diminishment in the value.". Presumably so much a mile driven? I understood a refund under the DSR must be made in full? Conditions like this usually make me steer clear of such a seller. I'm not saying the Riley is a bad buy though
the full ad is here - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/167669182125?itmmeta=01...
However, reading the whole thing raised a couple of potential red flags.
1. The first being, all cars sold must be trailered away - "Due to the very nature of older vehicles and their vulnerability to long-term storage, all our cars are sold as unroadworthy and should not be driven on the public highway until fixed and made roadworthy (whether showing a current MOT certificate or not).
You accept and understand that using this vehicle on the roads in GB would be unlawful in its current condition, and that it will not be used on the roads in GB until it has been put into a lawful condition.
For the reasons mentioned above, all vehicles bought must be trailered away."
2. The second red flag is that they correctly identify the distance selling regulations, as they are legally obliged to do. However, in the event of a return under the DSR, they retain a £500 non refundable deposit., plus " a reasonable figure for any diminishment in the value.". Presumably so much a mile driven? I understood a refund under the DSR must be made in full? Conditions like this usually make me steer clear of such a seller. I'm not saying the Riley is a bad buy though
the full ad is here - https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/167669182125?itmmeta=01...
IANAL
The first, means that your consumer rights for an item being "Fit for Purpose" are lost. By making you trailer it away, it's not implied to be fit to be driven on the road.
The "diminishment in the value" is reasonable if you have used the vehicle or done something to make it worth less. I suspect the "non refundable deposit" is not legal and could be challenged.
In summary, you are buying a car much like a private sale in terms of comeback - no issue unless you are buying at a dealer premium (or that's my reading of it).
Someone who knows there legalities well considering zero ebay feedbacks and an account a few months old.
I wouldn't buy unseen on this one!
The first, means that your consumer rights for an item being "Fit for Purpose" are lost. By making you trailer it away, it's not implied to be fit to be driven on the road.
The "diminishment in the value" is reasonable if you have used the vehicle or done something to make it worth less. I suspect the "non refundable deposit" is not legal and could be challenged.
In summary, you are buying a car much like a private sale in terms of comeback - no issue unless you are buying at a dealer premium (or that's my reading of it).
Someone who knows there legalities well considering zero ebay feedbacks and an account a few months old.
I wouldn't buy unseen on this one!
Edited by OverSteery on Thursday 24th July 17:10
Being sold by Classic Investor Ltd., which seems to be trying to be WBAC for classic cars.
https://www.classicinvestor.co.uk/
https://www.classicinvestor.co.uk/
They're attempting to remove your rights as a private buyer.
They can't legally do this, but it points to how much of an arse-ache it'd be to try and use those rights to actually get anything back from them if you felt you needed to.
Having said that, I can't imagine trying to sell 50+ year old cars to people who "know their rights" and expect perfection in everything could be much fun (one of the many reasons why I don't do that for a living!) and I'm somewhat on their side here - although I think their better course might be to point out that the law requires "reasonableness" and that cars that age needed tinkering/servicing/fixing every weekend when they were new, so things would have to be pretty awful before any rights would kick in. It's not exactly expensive as far as cars in general go, either, so that lowers the bar still further on reasonable condition.
I've no idea whether what sort of value that price represents for that car, but if I were to consider it, I'd assume I would end up with a complete lack of comeback from the off and make my choices based on that.
They can't legally do this, but it points to how much of an arse-ache it'd be to try and use those rights to actually get anything back from them if you felt you needed to.
Having said that, I can't imagine trying to sell 50+ year old cars to people who "know their rights" and expect perfection in everything could be much fun (one of the many reasons why I don't do that for a living!) and I'm somewhat on their side here - although I think their better course might be to point out that the law requires "reasonableness" and that cars that age needed tinkering/servicing/fixing every weekend when they were new, so things would have to be pretty awful before any rights would kick in. It's not exactly expensive as far as cars in general go, either, so that lowers the bar still further on reasonable condition.
I've no idea whether what sort of value that price represents for that car, but if I were to consider it, I'd assume I would end up with a complete lack of comeback from the off and make my choices based on that.
The advert clearly invites serious buyers to go and look.
Anyone who buys a 'project' car sight unseen deserves what they get.
'Diminishment of value' could be something along the lines of wannabe restorer dismantles some part of the car and realises it needs end-to-end rebuilding? buying a project car and trying to return a pile of bits?
I'm surprised they don't just rule out doing business under 'distance selling' conditions, it's a classified ad, an invitation to do business, not an ebay auction or buy it now transaction.
AIUI, and IANAL, UK law makes it difficult to sell non-roadworthy cars. These are not 'cars' they are 'projects' IMHO.
I think 'Red Flag' in this instance is the OP being sent off the pitch, as it's clearly not his game.
I was tempted by the alfa.....
Anyone who buys a 'project' car sight unseen deserves what they get.
'Diminishment of value' could be something along the lines of wannabe restorer dismantles some part of the car and realises it needs end-to-end rebuilding? buying a project car and trying to return a pile of bits?
I'm surprised they don't just rule out doing business under 'distance selling' conditions, it's a classified ad, an invitation to do business, not an ebay auction or buy it now transaction.
AIUI, and IANAL, UK law makes it difficult to sell non-roadworthy cars. These are not 'cars' they are 'projects' IMHO.
I think 'Red Flag' in this instance is the OP being sent off the pitch, as it's clearly not his game.
I was tempted by the alfa.....
Well for one there is no way anyone should be buying anything 55 years old without inspecting it. Even if you could have your rights over purchase of a roadworthy car, you must expect at 55 years old to have 55 years of wear and tear. Therefore you will be pretty much on your own what ever the law says, they will just say it's due to it not being new.
That being said it looks like a nice car, and if you want one that shiney its probably as good or better than most out there.
That being said it looks like a nice car, and if you want one that shiney its probably as good or better than most out there.
Just to be clear to those who criticise my right to be concerned, having owned over 70 cars, many of them older cars, I would never buy an old car over the phone/internet. I was merely making the point that ads can give a good indication what a seller is like to deal with and for me, there were a couple of red flags
lornemalvo said:
Just to be clear to those who criticise my right to be concerned, having owned over 70 cars, many of them older cars, I would never buy an old car over the phone/internet. I was merely making the point that ads can give a good indication what a seller is like to deal with and for me, there were a couple of red flags
So therfore excellent for both you and the seller... You don't want to buy from this type of seller and clearly the seller doesn't want to sell to anyone like you buying a 55 year old car thinking they have call for redress when they clearly make it clear the vehicle has to be trailerdaway and sold as unroadworthey... Can't see a problem with that, and I'm sure the seller will be happy you don't want to proceed with the purchase... If you don't like those terms move on and buy elsewhere..lornemalvo said:
Just to be clear to those who criticise my right to be concerned, having owned over 70 cars, many of them older cars, I would never buy an old car over the phone/internet. I was merely making the point that ads can give a good indication what a seller is like to deal with and for me, there were a couple of red flags
No criticism from me, I find it quite okay to want to check out the seller and the basis the sale is being done under, if its clearly (it isn't always clear on ebay) a company you're buying from (as opposed to a private sale). I personally wouldn't buy from that firm either - but for a different reason, 0 feedback. They seem too new to me (I know, I know).Some dealers/companies try hard to make things easy for a retail customer, and some make it hard. And some simply want to do trade-trade style sales, which is fair enough. I'd say this one makes it hard because they are clearly a dealer and they want a taste of the "retail" pie (in higher prices), but have cobbled together some slightly incoherent wording to make it look like its a "sold as-is" basis, ie circumventing CRA2015, ie a trade sale. Except they've missed off a few simple steps to ensure its a trade-trade sale, for example explicitly saying so! Or asking for proof of trade status.
And some customers want the trade prices and ability to browse/shop at the trade outlets, but want some retail sugar on top.
To be accurate, they have zero feedback because their entire ebay presence seems to be classifieds, which are not part of the feedback system.
Prices seem to reflect the cars being projects.
It's an advert. It's not a sales portal, there is no buyitnow.
There's not even a 'reserve it for £99' option like on AutoTrader etc.
If you want to spend days on end scouring the country for your choice of project yourself, go ahead.
This seems to be a dealer who finds project cars and then attempts to find buyers for them.
Without such a dealer offering the owners of project cars a quick sale, more of them might be broken for parts, scrapped or lie around rotting.
Such dealers were around in the 'Classic Bike' world back last century when I had 50s and 60s bikes.
A lot of them made more money breaking bikes for spares, so hobbyists could have the fun of buying the parts separately and spending a fortune on putting them back together. I guess cars contain too much rust for that to work quite the same.
The business of classics is business like anything else.
If people stop traders selling project cars, then traders will sell them piecemeal.
Prices seem to reflect the cars being projects.
It's an advert. It's not a sales portal, there is no buyitnow.
There's not even a 'reserve it for £99' option like on AutoTrader etc.
If you want to spend days on end scouring the country for your choice of project yourself, go ahead.
This seems to be a dealer who finds project cars and then attempts to find buyers for them.
Without such a dealer offering the owners of project cars a quick sale, more of them might be broken for parts, scrapped or lie around rotting.
Such dealers were around in the 'Classic Bike' world back last century when I had 50s and 60s bikes.
A lot of them made more money breaking bikes for spares, so hobbyists could have the fun of buying the parts separately and spending a fortune on putting them back together. I guess cars contain too much rust for that to work quite the same.
The business of classics is business like anything else.
If people stop traders selling project cars, then traders will sell them piecemeal.
Let's be clear, the twin prongs of CRA2015 and the tough MoT is killing older cars. Almost all dealers won't sell anything under about £2k, either disposing trade-trade or scrapping it. Whilst classics are recognised as obviously having some value even if in poor condition, the next batch of future classics aren't there yet.
And the MoT is pretty tough these days. It can easily render a future classic beyond economic repair.
I used to love older cars but its just a complete PITA now, not worth the hassle any more.
And the MoT is pretty tough these days. It can easily render a future classic beyond economic repair.
I used to love older cars but its just a complete PITA now, not worth the hassle any more.
paul_c123 said:
Let's be clear, the twin prongs of CRA2015 and the tough MoT is killing older cars. Almost all dealers won't sell anything under about £2k, either disposing trade-trade or scrapping it. Whilst classics are recognised as obviously having some value even if in poor condition, the next batch of future classics aren't there yet.
And the MoT is pretty tough these days. It can easily render a future classic beyond economic repair.
I used to love older cars but its just a complete PITA now, not worth the hassle any more.
I think this is an increasing problem with much younger cars.And the MoT is pretty tough these days. It can easily render a future classic beyond economic repair.
I used to love older cars but its just a complete PITA now, not worth the hassle any more.
Cars from say now back to ~10 years ago are complicated and not built to be easily repaired.
Emissions limits are harsh, repairs are expensive. These cars are generally very reliable for the first 80k miles, so the spares industry is not focused on the stuff you need to get these cars through an MOT when they're older. Backstreet garages struggle with complex problems. Too much 'body electronics' means there's cars uneconomic to fix despite nothing much wrong with the basic shell or drive train.
The CRA has changed the landscape a bit, but other forces have killed private sales. Gangs of predatory dodgy buyers being one thing. People used to advertise their 10 year old banger in the evening mail on a thursday and people bought and sold fairly happily. That's all broken now, so most sales are trade.
paul_c123 said:
Let's be clear, the twin prongs of CRA2015 and the tough MoT is killing older cars. Almost all dealers won't sell anything under about £2k, either disposing trade-trade or scrapping it. Whilst classics are recognised as obviously having some value even if in poor condition, the next batch of future classics aren't there yet.
And the MoT is pretty tough these days. It can easily render a future classic beyond economic repair.
I used to love older cars but its just a complete PITA now, not worth the hassle any more.
It doesn't need an mot, it's exempt.And the MoT is pretty tough these days. It can easily render a future classic beyond economic repair.
I used to love older cars but its just a complete PITA now, not worth the hassle any more.
Biggest red flag for me would be it's a BMC ado16, which, despite stiff competition, was the rustiest s
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