Rough x-flow Westfield performance figures?
Discussion
Im planning on selling my little JZR this time next year and replaceing her with something a little bit quicker.
Based on a couple of drags with a friend of mine id say she'll do 60 in 10-12 seconds? Does that sound about right?
Think ill be able to get a good price because shes in great condition, so id only have to but a bit more in to get an old 1700 x-flow. So what will the old westie do? I realy dont care about top speed cos its not going to be tracked or driven on the motorway, just want more corner to corner speed and a lower 0-60 so i can batter the local dales a bit more!
Anybody no some rough figures? Think ill be satisfied with an older model or should i keep on saveing for a new zetec beast?
Thanks guys!
P.S does anybody know of a place in or around yorkshire that teaches or allows safe drifting? Id love to have a day out and get tought how to be a Jap drift master!
Based on a couple of drags with a friend of mine id say she'll do 60 in 10-12 seconds? Does that sound about right?
Think ill be able to get a good price because shes in great condition, so id only have to but a bit more in to get an old 1700 x-flow. So what will the old westie do? I realy dont care about top speed cos its not going to be tracked or driven on the motorway, just want more corner to corner speed and a lower 0-60 so i can batter the local dales a bit more!
Anybody no some rough figures? Think ill be satisfied with an older model or should i keep on saveing for a new zetec beast?
Thanks guys!
P.S does anybody know of a place in or around yorkshire that teaches or allows safe drifting? Id love to have a day out and get tought how to be a Jap drift master!
There's quite a variation, depending on weight of car (even different examples of the same model of Westfield can vary a bit), tyres, gearing and, most importantly of course, engine spec. 1700 Crossflows can run from 80-odd bhp up to, realistically for road use, maybe 165bhp.
To give you some idea, though, Road and Track took proper performance figures for a 145bhp-spec 1700 Crossflow Westfield and came up with 0-60 in 6.1 seconds, 0-100 in 23.8seconds and a top speed of 110mph. The barn door aerodynamics are responsible for the dismal top end and 0-100 time; my Sylva will easily pull 135mph with a Crossflow of only slightly higher spec (which naturally means that it's still accelerating much harder in the 100mph region, too).
To be fair, the Westfield tested had a full screen and trim (the screen probably costs 5mph on top speed and commensurate reduction in top end acceleration), and the test was back in 1995, so I'd expect slightly better 0-60 times if you fitted stickier modern 'track day' tyres.
... but after the JZR, it will give you a big enough step up in performance to be good fun, whatever, though the handling might prove a bit tame for you!
To give you some idea, though, Road and Track took proper performance figures for a 145bhp-spec 1700 Crossflow Westfield and came up with 0-60 in 6.1 seconds, 0-100 in 23.8seconds and a top speed of 110mph. The barn door aerodynamics are responsible for the dismal top end and 0-100 time; my Sylva will easily pull 135mph with a Crossflow of only slightly higher spec (which naturally means that it's still accelerating much harder in the 100mph region, too).
To be fair, the Westfield tested had a full screen and trim (the screen probably costs 5mph on top speed and commensurate reduction in top end acceleration), and the test was back in 1995, so I'd expect slightly better 0-60 times if you fitted stickier modern 'track day' tyres.
... but after the JZR, it will give you a big enough step up in performance to be good fun, whatever, though the handling might prove a bit tame for you!
Thats great news, sounds to me like that should be the perfect 1st westie. I think anything under 7ish seconds will be quick enough for now, itl still feel 10 times faster than a 'normal' car with the wind in my face and a barking exhaust!
I think i should have 5 to 6 k to play with, think i should just stick to the old westie plan or are there any other kits that i should be looking in to? For the first year or so i will have to use it every day until my old 2CV is up to scratch. Whould a well maintained x.flow be up to the job or is it asking for trouble to get 10k a year out of one?
Ta.
I think i should have 5 to 6 k to play with, think i should just stick to the old westie plan or are there any other kits that i should be looking in to? For the first year or so i will have to use it every day until my old 2CV is up to scratch. Whould a well maintained x.flow be up to the job or is it asking for trouble to get 10k a year out of one?
Ta.
I'm biased (I own one), but I'd suggest that Sylvas are better value than any of the competition at this end of the market. Mine has a pretty high spec Crossflow (circa 155bhp); I'd estimate 0-60 in the mid 5 second bracket and top speed is comfortably 130mph+, due to the better aerodynamics on the full-bodied Clubmans/Phoenix variant, yet realistically I'd ask £5K and it would probably sell for about £4,500.
...and in terms of handling, Sylvas and their derivatives have dominated the 750MC kit car championship for longer than most people can remember.
Personally, I'd avoid the Pinto. It's a huge, heavy lump of cast iron. It makes a fine boat anchor, but isn't really suitable for ultra-lightweight kit cars unless you like corner-entry understeer.
The Fiat/Lancia or Lotus Twin Cams are good alternative to the Crossflow, if you come across one, but they aren;t as commonplace and parts are both harder to come by and more expensive.
...and in terms of handling, Sylvas and their derivatives have dominated the 750MC kit car championship for longer than most people can remember.
Personally, I'd avoid the Pinto. It's a huge, heavy lump of cast iron. It makes a fine boat anchor, but isn't really suitable for ultra-lightweight kit cars unless you like corner-entry understeer.
The Fiat/Lancia or Lotus Twin Cams are good alternative to the Crossflow, if you come across one, but they aren;t as commonplace and parts are both harder to come by and more expensive.
Hmmm, seems like iv opend a can of worms now....
Im not too sure about a tiger or any other make of 7type car, its a silly thing to say but iv just always thought that id get a westie then on to a caterham when i saved up enough pennies? Am i just being a badge snob or do other 7's have the same quality and performance as a basic westie?
On the other hand i do love the look of sylvas, i may be wrong but i think i remember an article in a kit mag last year that was on the Pheonix? Now that was a great looking car. What would a westie/sylva be like to live with year round? would it be possible to drive every rainy day throughout winter or would i end up bining it on roundabout?
4500k seems great for a 150bhp sylva, does yours have all the wet weather gear and a screen?
Thanks again!
Im not too sure about a tiger or any other make of 7type car, its a silly thing to say but iv just always thought that id get a westie then on to a caterham when i saved up enough pennies? Am i just being a badge snob or do other 7's have the same quality and performance as a basic westie?
On the other hand i do love the look of sylvas, i may be wrong but i think i remember an article in a kit mag last year that was on the Pheonix? Now that was a great looking car. What would a westie/sylva be like to live with year round? would it be possible to drive every rainy day throughout winter or would i end up bining it on roundabout?
4500k seems great for a 150bhp sylva, does yours have all the wet weather gear and a screen?
Thanks again!
Nothing wrong with Westies (again, I would say that - I've got a Westy as well as a Sylva!), so if that's what you like the look of, then by all means go for it! Don't let the Caterham owners know you rate them alongside Caterhams in terms of snob value on the badge, though - they get very upset if they think another kit-car marque is aspiring to be as snobbish as theirs! Caterhams are the genuine article doncha know... not only designed by Colin Chapman, but each personally hand-assembled by his ghost.
Westfields have a slight advantage over Sylva in terms of build quality, not so much because the quality of manufacture is better but because the kit is a little easier to put together. They are physically bigger, though (especially the wide-body variants that are now standard)... good if you are tall or lardy, bad in terms of weight and drag.
Tigers are nice cars too. Again, personally, I'd avoid the budget TigerCat/E1 variant, 'cos it uses Sierra semi-trailing arm rear suspension which has massive unsprung weight and therefore isn't very suitable for a 'Seven'. The Tiger Super 6 is a quality car and there are some lovely examples about, but it tends to use the Pinto engine and the chassis is a bit on the heavy side, so you'll end up closer to 700kg than the 500kg you'd aspire to in a Sylva - if you want it as a driver's car rather than for the looks, an S1 Elise would make more sense, therefore, especially as an everyday car.
Do a search on here for 'Seven as an everyday car' - it's been discussed at length previously - but if you've got a JZR at the moment, you'll understand the limitations.
I ran a Westfield followed by a Caterham as my only car, all year round, when I was younger... It can be done, but you've got to be either fairly tough or nuts. For what it's worth, if I was going to do it again, I'd deliberately select a car without a full screen and weather gear, because both are pretty hopeless. The weather gear always leaks a bit (usually spray finding its way up under the bottoms of the sidescreens, rather than the hood itself), which means in really foul weather de-misting is a big problem; visibility is restricted anyway, with the hood up; they are a b
d to get in and out of unless you are a 13 year-old Russian gymnast, and they are as noisy as hell. The flat windscreen glass tends to smear and be difficult to clear with wipers and if you try to run hood-off in the rain, water whips round onto the inside face for the screen where the wiper can't clear it anyway. Better to get an aeroscreen'd car with a split tonneau to keep the passenger side dry, then invest in some decent waterproofs and a crash helmet!
My Sylva (a Phoenix/Clubmans) doesn't have a screen, so no hood, but the Fury version comes with a proper, curved windscreen (from the Lotus Elan, as it happens, so easy to replace), doors and rigid side windows, so if you fit a decent heater it's as practical as an all-weather car as something like an MGB/Midget, if you really want a windscreen and hood to avoid the motorcycling gear.
The wet-weather handling of all Seven types is a bit skittish, so you've got to be fairly sensible about your speed, but not a big problem, really. Slow in, fast out on wet roundabouts, but if you've survived the JZR, you've no worries, mate!
To answer your original post-script question, they used to do cheap skid-pan training up at Tockwith Airfield near Wetherby, but it's a few years since I was up there. Whereabouts in Yorkshire are you? I was from Leeds originally and studied at Sheffield, but I'm down in the Cotswolds these days.
What spec. is your JZR? My Sylva is a little dog-eared, bodily, but an ex-race car so very good mechanical condition and specification... I've always been intrigued by the JZR's, so maybe we could think about a p-ex/swap?
Westfields have a slight advantage over Sylva in terms of build quality, not so much because the quality of manufacture is better but because the kit is a little easier to put together. They are physically bigger, though (especially the wide-body variants that are now standard)... good if you are tall or lardy, bad in terms of weight and drag.
Tigers are nice cars too. Again, personally, I'd avoid the budget TigerCat/E1 variant, 'cos it uses Sierra semi-trailing arm rear suspension which has massive unsprung weight and therefore isn't very suitable for a 'Seven'. The Tiger Super 6 is a quality car and there are some lovely examples about, but it tends to use the Pinto engine and the chassis is a bit on the heavy side, so you'll end up closer to 700kg than the 500kg you'd aspire to in a Sylva - if you want it as a driver's car rather than for the looks, an S1 Elise would make more sense, therefore, especially as an everyday car.
Do a search on here for 'Seven as an everyday car' - it's been discussed at length previously - but if you've got a JZR at the moment, you'll understand the limitations.
I ran a Westfield followed by a Caterham as my only car, all year round, when I was younger... It can be done, but you've got to be either fairly tough or nuts. For what it's worth, if I was going to do it again, I'd deliberately select a car without a full screen and weather gear, because both are pretty hopeless. The weather gear always leaks a bit (usually spray finding its way up under the bottoms of the sidescreens, rather than the hood itself), which means in really foul weather de-misting is a big problem; visibility is restricted anyway, with the hood up; they are a b
d to get in and out of unless you are a 13 year-old Russian gymnast, and they are as noisy as hell. The flat windscreen glass tends to smear and be difficult to clear with wipers and if you try to run hood-off in the rain, water whips round onto the inside face for the screen where the wiper can't clear it anyway. Better to get an aeroscreen'd car with a split tonneau to keep the passenger side dry, then invest in some decent waterproofs and a crash helmet! My Sylva (a Phoenix/Clubmans) doesn't have a screen, so no hood, but the Fury version comes with a proper, curved windscreen (from the Lotus Elan, as it happens, so easy to replace), doors and rigid side windows, so if you fit a decent heater it's as practical as an all-weather car as something like an MGB/Midget, if you really want a windscreen and hood to avoid the motorcycling gear.
The wet-weather handling of all Seven types is a bit skittish, so you've got to be fairly sensible about your speed, but not a big problem, really. Slow in, fast out on wet roundabouts, but if you've survived the JZR, you've no worries, mate!
To answer your original post-script question, they used to do cheap skid-pan training up at Tockwith Airfield near Wetherby, but it's a few years since I was up there. Whereabouts in Yorkshire are you? I was from Leeds originally and studied at Sheffield, but I'm down in the Cotswolds these days.
What spec. is your JZR? My Sylva is a little dog-eared, bodily, but an ex-race car so very good mechanical condition and specification... I've always been intrigued by the JZR's, so maybe we could think about a p-ex/swap?
Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 26th April 07:51
Hmm, that may just be a good idea youv got there....
Iv been looking into Sylvas over the past few days and there begining to grow on me. Any chance that you could post a pic or two to give me an idea of what yours is like?
Im away on a 6 month tour of the USA at the moment so i cant put any pics on of my JZR up, so to give you an idea:
Perfect bright red bodywork,
Brand new seats,
Recently refurbed wire wheels,
500cc CX 500 engine, seems to be in good condition. (I only had the car for a few months before i left home and the previous owner had just had the engine overhauled by a Mr Sam Day who im told is the man when it comes to CX's)
I got the local sheet metal fabricator to make me up a new center tunnel cover before i left which needs fitting, its going to be coverd in black alcantara. As will the dash when i get round to it.
Good condition overall, the only issue the engine slightly hesitates sometimes but iv been to my local bike shop and she just needs tuning.
Ill be home in a month or so so maybe we could meet up some time before christmas and have a chatt? I want to keep her untill the new year as ill be 21 in feb and cant afford to insure anything else till then!
Good thinking about tockwith, i should have thought about that one. I learnt to drive there! I live in North Leeds, only 20 mins away!
Let me know what you think.
Mitch
Iv been looking into Sylvas over the past few days and there begining to grow on me. Any chance that you could post a pic or two to give me an idea of what yours is like?
Im away on a 6 month tour of the USA at the moment so i cant put any pics on of my JZR up, so to give you an idea:
Perfect bright red bodywork,
Brand new seats,
Recently refurbed wire wheels,
500cc CX 500 engine, seems to be in good condition. (I only had the car for a few months before i left home and the previous owner had just had the engine overhauled by a Mr Sam Day who im told is the man when it comes to CX's)
I got the local sheet metal fabricator to make me up a new center tunnel cover before i left which needs fitting, its going to be coverd in black alcantara. As will the dash when i get round to it.
Good condition overall, the only issue the engine slightly hesitates sometimes but iv been to my local bike shop and she just needs tuning.
Ill be home in a month or so so maybe we could meet up some time before christmas and have a chatt? I want to keep her untill the new year as ill be 21 in feb and cant afford to insure anything else till then!
Good thinking about tockwith, i should have thought about that one. I learnt to drive there! I live in North Leeds, only 20 mins away!
Let me know what you think.
Mitch
to give a figure: i organized a ´89 westfield for a friend in decmeber 2006. the westfield is an independant rear suspension model, had (when i bought it) a freshly overhauled lotus twincam big-valve engine, bored to 1739cc, including sports-camshafts, twin 45 dellortos, full weather gear, 5-speed t9 gearbox, 3.5 diff, ride and height adjustable spax. cost 4200,-pound!!
Mitch,
Worth thinking about certainly. The Sylva is still in winter storage, but I'll get some photos shortly. I'm in no rush to sell - I've owned it 13 years - but having two track day cars is a bit of a luxury and a JZR has always appealed, so maybe it's time for a change!
Is yours a barrel back or a beetle back? Long cockpit? And has it had the handbrake modification for MOT?
Worth thinking about certainly. The Sylva is still in winter storage, but I'll get some photos shortly. I'm in no rush to sell - I've owned it 13 years - but having two track day cars is a bit of a luxury and a JZR has always appealed, so maybe it's time for a change!
Is yours a barrel back or a beetle back? Long cockpit? And has it had the handbrake modification for MOT?
Sam,
My JZR is a beetle back, and looks very similar to the one that is up in the classifieds section at the moment. Look under Morgan, then others. Infact it looks almost exactly the same bar the luggage rack and small things like the big horn and crap stuck to the front.
Im not too sure about the cockpit size, although im 6.1 and fit inside fine. Again im not sure about the handbreak It had an Mot when i bought it so hasnt been an issue for me so far. Either way it will have the mod done over the next few months because it will need to pass a new MOT! Sorry im not able to fully answer your questions, im a long way from home and all the documents!
Ill look foreward to the pics.
All the best, Mitch.
My JZR is a beetle back, and looks very similar to the one that is up in the classifieds section at the moment. Look under Morgan, then others. Infact it looks almost exactly the same bar the luggage rack and small things like the big horn and crap stuck to the front.
Im not too sure about the cockpit size, although im 6.1 and fit inside fine. Again im not sure about the handbreak It had an Mot when i bought it so hasnt been an issue for me so far. Either way it will have the mod done over the next few months because it will need to pass a new MOT! Sorry im not able to fully answer your questions, im a long way from home and all the documents!
Ill look foreward to the pics.
All the best, Mitch.
mitchipoo06 said:
Any chance that you could post a pic or two to give me an idea of what yours is like?
Here you go, Mitch - I actually managed to get her out for a bit of a run, yesterday, in between the showers. Slight blow on one of the manifold gaskets and a small oil leak (possibly rear crankshaft oil seal) need sorting as a result of being laid up for the winter, but other than that she's in fine form!
Looks perfect Sam, It may just be the car iv been hunting for! Ill Be home in a few months so will contact you then. If you still fancy a change then maybe we could find a decent half way point for a chatt, or ill drive all the way down to you if you take me for a spin in the Elan!
The main reason that id like to change the JZR is that i need something more practical for every day use. I was planning to get the 2CV done up and use that and the JZR 50/50. However I realy dont think ill get the 2CV back to full health anythime soon.
So what (if anything) do you think id have to do to run the Sylva as an ony car? A cover that I could split would be a must, and possibly a sealed induction system? The open one on at the moment looks like it would do a great job of soaking up water in a downpour. Any other mods that you think id have to do? Does it have a heater?
Thanks, Mitch
The main reason that id like to change the JZR is that i need something more practical for every day use. I was planning to get the 2CV done up and use that and the JZR 50/50. However I realy dont think ill get the 2CV back to full health anythime soon.
So what (if anything) do you think id have to do to run the Sylva as an ony car? A cover that I could split would be a must, and possibly a sealed induction system? The open one on at the moment looks like it would do a great job of soaking up water in a downpour. Any other mods that you think id have to do? Does it have a heater?
Thanks, Mitch
The exposed induction isn't a problem - the filters are lightly oiled, so they repel water anyway, and you never get enough water sucked in to upset the carburation.
It has a split tonneau already, but no heater. There's plenty of space to fit a big heater in the driver's side sill pod, if you wanted, and the passenger side gets warm whether you like it or not because of the exhaust running down the left hand sill.
Biggest problems at the moment would be the tyres (it's on semi-slick Yokohama A008R's, which have comedy value but not much grip in the wet) and the engine, which is fairly fierce. It was built for racing (and was good enough to get 2nd pole at Silverstone in the hands of a novice, behind championship winner Martin Stewart), but whilst it's now quite tractable (I've done a fair bit of tinkering with the Webers to tame it a bit -it uset to just spit and cough if you gave it throttle at low revs), it's pretty gutless below 3,500 revs. Once it comes on cam, of course, it flies, but the power delivery means it's not the most relaxing car to drive on wet roads. It's also pretty physical to drive fast, so I wouldn't personally want to drive it much over 100 miles at a stretch, but then I'm a physical wreck these days and slowly slipping toward middle age...
Oh... and while I've never measured it, I'm guessing fuel consumption will be in the low 20's mpg, which might come as a bit of a shock after a JZR and a 2CV.
You'd have to be pretty tough (read 'nuts') to drive it all year round as your only car, but you'll know the limitations if you've got a JZR and I've driven worse as my only transport when I was young and foolish!
It may well go up for sale soon, anyway, half-heartedly, but if it's still around when you're ready to get rid of the JZR, by all means give me a shout. The car currently lives at my girlfriend's house near Tamworth, so it's half way up to you already, but I'll happily take you for a spin in the Elan if you meet me at somewhere like Donington Park.
It has a split tonneau already, but no heater. There's plenty of space to fit a big heater in the driver's side sill pod, if you wanted, and the passenger side gets warm whether you like it or not because of the exhaust running down the left hand sill.
Biggest problems at the moment would be the tyres (it's on semi-slick Yokohama A008R's, which have comedy value but not much grip in the wet) and the engine, which is fairly fierce. It was built for racing (and was good enough to get 2nd pole at Silverstone in the hands of a novice, behind championship winner Martin Stewart), but whilst it's now quite tractable (I've done a fair bit of tinkering with the Webers to tame it a bit -it uset to just spit and cough if you gave it throttle at low revs), it's pretty gutless below 3,500 revs. Once it comes on cam, of course, it flies, but the power delivery means it's not the most relaxing car to drive on wet roads. It's also pretty physical to drive fast, so I wouldn't personally want to drive it much over 100 miles at a stretch, but then I'm a physical wreck these days and slowly slipping toward middle age...
Oh... and while I've never measured it, I'm guessing fuel consumption will be in the low 20's mpg, which might come as a bit of a shock after a JZR and a 2CV.
You'd have to be pretty tough (read 'nuts') to drive it all year round as your only car, but you'll know the limitations if you've got a JZR and I've driven worse as my only transport when I was young and foolish!
It may well go up for sale soon, anyway, half-heartedly, but if it's still around when you're ready to get rid of the JZR, by all means give me a shout. The car currently lives at my girlfriend's house near Tamworth, so it's half way up to you already, but I'll happily take you for a spin in the Elan if you meet me at somewhere like Donington Park.
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