Discussion
Following the discussions about team orders after the Silverstone race, I have to first mention that of course I would have loved to see an attack of Webber. I think he had a good chance to pass; otherwise they would not have sent him that message.
Having said that, what is Webber's role in the team, and what is the job that the team expects him to do? Obviously, it is to help secure the championships by keeping as many other cars behind him as possible. That job he had done in Silverstone, and the team had no interest in risking two good placings just for the sake of some good show for the spectators. From their point of view, I can understand. Also, they are not interested in their own drivers' personal careers; after all, they might drive somewhere else next year. Any team in F1 firstly works for themselves as a team.
So how many points has Webber "taken away" from the other competitors? So far this year, 13 from Hamilton and 9 from each Button and Alonso. Not a lot really. Without his services for RB, the standings in the championship would be quite the same. Let's look at it from another angle: How often this year has he been able to stay ahead of the toughest competitors (Alonso, Hamilton, Button)? In Australia, he was beaten by Hamilton and Alonso, in Malaysia he was beaten by Button, in China by Hamilton, in Turkey for once he beat them all, in Spain he was beaten by Hamilton and Alonso, in Monaco by Alonso and Button, in Canada by Button, in both Valencia and Silverstone by Alonso.
Is that such a great balance? How many other drivers would have achieved the same or more with a car like that?
This said, I think Webber is a great bloke and driver. You don't stay in F1 for so many years, not even with considerable personal sponsorship, if not for doing the job.
Just a reflection; open to discuss and to be corrected!
Having said that, what is Webber's role in the team, and what is the job that the team expects him to do? Obviously, it is to help secure the championships by keeping as many other cars behind him as possible. That job he had done in Silverstone, and the team had no interest in risking two good placings just for the sake of some good show for the spectators. From their point of view, I can understand. Also, they are not interested in their own drivers' personal careers; after all, they might drive somewhere else next year. Any team in F1 firstly works for themselves as a team.
So how many points has Webber "taken away" from the other competitors? So far this year, 13 from Hamilton and 9 from each Button and Alonso. Not a lot really. Without his services for RB, the standings in the championship would be quite the same. Let's look at it from another angle: How often this year has he been able to stay ahead of the toughest competitors (Alonso, Hamilton, Button)? In Australia, he was beaten by Hamilton and Alonso, in Malaysia he was beaten by Button, in China by Hamilton, in Turkey for once he beat them all, in Spain he was beaten by Hamilton and Alonso, in Monaco by Alonso and Button, in Canada by Button, in both Valencia and Silverstone by Alonso.
Is that such a great balance? How many other drivers would have achieved the same or more with a car like that?
This said, I think Webber is a great bloke and driver. You don't stay in F1 for so many years, not even with considerable personal sponsorship, if not for doing the job.
Just a reflection; open to discuss and to be corrected!
Webber's doing a top job considering the car he's driving is not designed around him and his driving style.
That he was able to crawl all over Vettel's gearbox for the last few laps at Silverstone is a testament to his skill as a driver.
The team have already said that they want him for next year, it's clear that the team consider him a number two driver and the fact that team orders are not banned anymore just makes it easier for them to enforce their view.
I just wonder at what point Webber may crack, tell Horner down the radio to "f
k off" and defy the team.
That he was able to crawl all over Vettel's gearbox for the last few laps at Silverstone is a testament to his skill as a driver.
The team have already said that they want him for next year, it's clear that the team consider him a number two driver and the fact that team orders are not banned anymore just makes it easier for them to enforce their view.
I just wonder at what point Webber may crack, tell Horner down the radio to "f
k off" and defy the team.That's an odd way of looking at Webber's points contribution. He's still 2nd in the Championship and contributed 124 points to Red Bull's Constructors total. It's a shame he's not closer to Vettel this year on points, but then if he was then ironically that would mean Vettel's lead in the Championship would have been much reduced - presuming Webber had finished ahead of Vettel in approx half of the races. With all the wins going to Vettel it means he's almost certain of the Driver's title at this stage and Webber has done more than enough to secure the Constructor's title too. The only better outcome for Red Bull would have been a Vettel / Webber one-two in every race, which would not be easy even with two evenly matched drivers. Winning from the front is always that little bit easier than battling for the minor podium positions behind.
Just to add I think Webber is doing a top job considering he's approaching the end of his career and the team is heavily loaded in favour of Vettel who is clearly on a high. On a good day with no team orders or car issues Webber is still one of the fastest drivers out there. But if he had been driving a car this competitive 5 or 6 years ago I reckon he would have beaten anyone, including Vettel at this point.
Just to add I think Webber is doing a top job considering he's approaching the end of his career and the team is heavily loaded in favour of Vettel who is clearly on a high. On a good day with no team orders or car issues Webber is still one of the fastest drivers out there. But if he had been driving a car this competitive 5 or 6 years ago I reckon he would have beaten anyone, including Vettel at this point.
Edited by anonymous-user on Wednesday 20th July 15:42
Life Saab Itch said:
I just wonder at what point Webber may crack, tell Horner down the radio to "fk off" and defy the team.
I thought that was pretty close at Silverstone...........k off" and defy the team.I question whether or not he will want to stay at Red Bull, after all he wants to win and he knows he will be limited at Red Bull in a "he's quicker than you, confirm you understand" type of way......
Jasandjules said:
Life Saab Itch said:
I just wonder at what point Webber may crack, tell Horner down the radio to "fk off" and defy the team.
I thought that was pretty close at Silverstone...........k off" and defy the team.I question whether or not he will want to stay at Red Bull, after all he wants to win and he knows he will be limited at Red Bull in a "he's quicker than you, confirm you understand" type of way......
It's a shame, I am of a similar opinion to UKTM above.
Jasandjules said:
Life Saab Itch said:
I just wonder at what point Webber may crack, tell Horner down the radio to "fk off" and defy the team.
I thought that was pretty close at Silverstone...........k off" and defy the team.I question whether or not he will want to stay at Red Bull, after all he wants to win and he knows he will be limited at Red Bull in a "he's quicker than you, confirm you understand" type of way......
k off, he'll be out of the team.. And hes not going to get into a better car than the RedBull is he. McLaren won't have him, or Ferrari.Life Saab Itch said:
RB is his last chance unfortunately. There are no other places that he could go and have the same prospects.
It's a tricky one. I think he would (like many others before him) be better off in a "lower class" team but with the chances to race and not "have" to lose. I'd rather know when the race started that I wasn't going to win because the car was good enough than to have a winning car but be told to leave someone else to win....... Plus the challenge of improving another car would be fun... MSC doesn't seem to be too upset with his lot right now after all.Life Saab Itch said:
I just wonder at what point Webber may crack, tell Horner down the radio to "fk off" and defy the team.
He pretty much did at Silverstone, excep the swearing. He ignored Horner and tried to overtake Vettel anyway (without success).k off" and defy the team.I think Webber is a very good driver who could have won the WDC in his prime if he had a good car (like what Button did with Brawn in 2009). He got the chance last year, until he fluffed it in the last several races while his teammate upped the ante.
The car, mechanically, is equally suited to both drivers. Webber said it himself that he and Vettel share the same preferences in handling characteristics. So even if the engineers designed it around Vettel, it shouldn't disadvantage Webber. But Webber has been too slow to adapt to the new Pirellis this year, and Vettel has improved on two fronts: driving skill and how to play races tactically instead of taking excessive risks.
Now I'm afraid Webber won't have another good chance, and his best hope is to stick to Red Bull and finish his career at the front-end rather than in a HRT or Virgin.
Great Dane said:
Everyone says he has a strong personality - gritty oz etc... in fact he is not very good in adversity and starts making a fuzz and blaming this and that.... seen and heard about at Williams and seen it at RBR
To be fair he was promised the world at Williams and was given a dog eared old Atlas.Mark is a very humble and pleasant bloke, sometimes he lacks that fire in the belly needed to get the job done.
But when Mark is on form he is one of the best.
Great Dane said:
Everyone says he has a strong personality - gritty oz etc... in my opinion he is not very good in adversity and starts making a fuzz and blaming this and that.... seen and heard about at Williams and seen it at RBR
A subtle correction for you. I presume you've never met him thenI think there is a whole heap of politics going on in the background which doesn't fit too well with a relatively straight talking Australian who is near the end of his F1 career but driving the best car he's ever had (competitively speaking).
2010 / 2011 were/are likely to be the best chances Webber will have to win the title but the bottom line is the Organ-Grinder is backing Vettel as his golden property.
2010 / 2011 were/are likely to be the best chances Webber will have to win the title but the bottom line is the Organ-Grinder is backing Vettel as his golden property.
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